The Heisman going the way of MLB Hall of Fame.

[Kat]

Also, in response to the OP, I would say that, if anything, they are trying to keep the Heisman from losing its prestige. The Bush debacle has been a major media discussion for several weeks now, and almost unanimously the public has responded that Bush was a cheater. If we allow one cheater to retain the title, how would that deter future players from cheating?

Good point.

 

[ConHog]

Really? How does ESPN get all the voters across the country to vote how they want it?

Really? ESPN controls who's seen by most voters. The year Tebow won the Heisman it was a close race, maybe DMac from Arkansas should have won it, BUT Tebow was on EPSN every 5 minutes and so that's who voters seen.

You must not have seen the Escalade DMac was driving around when he was a student here. I'd be willing to bet he'd be in the same position Reggie Bush is in now.

Plus, mark that up to bad coaching. DMac was an outstanding athlete, but because his coach was an idiot and caused so much controversy that year, voters were turned off by our entire program. DMac was a victim of Nutt and Mustain's catfight from the year before, as well as Nutt's inability to coach a winning team.

Petrino is making a Heisman frontrunner out of someone as publicly appalling as Ryan Mallett. This kid is so obnoxious, it pains me to root for him. Unfortunately, I think Kellen Moore from Boise State will win the Heisman, unless Arkansas really can pull off a miracle win against Alabama.

What does an Escalade have to do with what I posted? Are you saying DMac cheated to? I don't buy that. Nutt is a lot of things, but his programs have never run afoul of the NCAA, not beyond minor infractions anyway.

 

[Kat]

Really? ESPN controls who's seen by most voters. The year Tebow won the Heisman it was a close race, maybe DMac from Arkansas should have won it, BUT Tebow was on EPSN every 5 minutes and so that's who voters seen.

You must not have seen the Escalade DMac was driving around when he was a student here. I'd be willing to bet he'd be in the same position Reggie Bush is in now.

Plus, mark that up to bad coaching. DMac was an outstanding athlete, but because his coach was an idiot and caused so much controversy that year, voters were turned off by our entire program. DMac was a victim of Nutt and Mustain's catfight from the year before, as well as Nutt's inability to coach a winning team.

Petrino is making a Heisman frontrunner out of someone as publicly appalling as Ryan Mallett. This kid is so obnoxious, it pains me to root for him. Unfortunately, I think Kellen Moore from Boise State will win the Heisman, unless Arkansas really can pull off a miracle win against Alabama.

What does an Escalade have to do with what I posted? Are you saying DMac cheated to? I don't buy that. Nutt is a lot of things, but his programs have never run afoul of the NCAA, not beyond minor infractions anyway.

It generally isn't the coaches that run afoul of the NCAA...it is the players being stalked by parasitic agents.

 

[ConHog]

You must not have seen the Escalade DMac was driving around when he was a student here. I'd be willing to bet he'd be in the same position Reggie Bush is in now.

Plus, mark that up to bad coaching. DMac was an outstanding athlete, but because his coach was an idiot and caused so much controversy that year, voters were turned off by our entire program. DMac was a victim of Nutt and Mustain's catfight from the year before, as well as Nutt's inability to coach a winning team.

Petrino is making a Heisman frontrunner out of someone as publicly appalling as Ryan Mallett. This kid is so obnoxious, it pains me to root for him. Unfortunately, I think Kellen Moore from Boise State will win the Heisman, unless Arkansas really can pull off a miracle win against Alabama.

What does an Escalade have to do with what I posted? Are you saying DMac cheated to? I don't buy that. Nutt is a lot of things, but his programs have never run afoul of the NCAA, not beyond minor infractions anyway.

It generally isn't the coaches that run afoul of the NCAA...it is the players being stalked by parasitic agents.

Well, of course that's true, but some coaches create an atmosphere where agents feel free to poach players while others take an active role in chasing the scum bags off and educating their players to stay away from them. I believe that is one area where Nutt does a good job.

 

[Kat]

What does an Escalade have to do with what I posted? Are you saying DMac cheated to? I don't buy that. Nutt is a lot of things, but his programs have never run afoul of the NCAA, not beyond minor infractions anyway.

It generally isn't the coaches that run afoul of the NCAA...it is the players being stalked by parasitic agents.

Well, of course that's true, but some coaches create an atmosphere where agents feel free to poach players while others take an active role in chasing the scum bags off and educating their players to stay away from them. I believe that is one area where Nutt does a good job.

I can't disagree about Nutt, but I can tell you that is still can happen with coaches even though they brow beat it into players. It did to Gene Stallings, and I KNOW he brow beat about agents, to the players.
Agents are pond scum, and they know how to come to players to get them. Actually, some laws have been passed in Alabama where agents can be prosecuted now...or so I was told.

 

[ConHog]

It generally isn't the coaches that run afoul of the NCAA...it is the players being stalked by parasitic agents.

Well, of course that's true, but some coaches create an atmosphere where agents feel free to poach players while others take an active role in chasing the scum bags off and educating their players to stay away from them. I believe that is one area where Nutt does a good job.

I can't disagree about Nutt, but I can tell you that is still can happen with coaches even though they brow beat it into players. It did to Gene Stallings, and I KNOW he brow beat about agents, to the players.
Agents are pond scum, and they know how to come to players to get them. Actually, some laws have been passed in Alabama where agents can be prosecuted now...or so I was told.

oh, we're agreed, agents are scum. there are some laws concerning them, but I don't think they are all that tough, not tough enough IMO.

Of course it can happen to any coach, but some are more prone, take USC for example, it was beyond obvious, there is noway Pete Carroll didn't know what was going on.

 

[Kat]

Well, of course that's true, but some coaches create an atmosphere where agents feel free to poach players while others take an active role in chasing the scum bags off and educating their players to stay away from them. I believe that is one area where Nutt does a good job.

I can't disagree about Nutt, but I can tell you that is still can happen with coaches even though they brow beat it into players. It did to Gene Stallings, and I KNOW he brow beat about agents, to the players.
Agents are pond scum, and they know how to come to players to get them. Actually, some laws have been passed in Alabama where agents can be prosecuted now...or so I was told.

oh, we're agreed, agents are scum. there are some laws concerning them, but I don't think they are all that tough, not tough enough IMO.

Of course it can happen to any coach, but some are more prone, take USC for example, it was beyond obvious, there is noway Pete Carroll didn't know what was going on.

Totally agree on that one!

 

[Immanuel]

I don't think they knew he had violated rules when he won the Heisman.

I am sure they did not. However, to go back now and say that he was not the number one player in college football, cheapens the trophy. I highly doubt USC is the only school that is guilty of such infractions.

Punish the school now that it has been determined that they violated the rules. It is too late to punish Reggie Bush. The history of the trophy will be dirtied if they take it away from him now.

Immie

hmm How will it dirty the history if it is take away?
I agree that it is too late to punish Reggie. (and btw, I think they should just leave things alone)

Dirty as in smudging the prestige of the trophy.

They've started playing politics with the Heisman. When sporting authorities start playing politics with their sports, they destroy the sport.

In this case, the trust is playing politics with the trophy. If they continue to do so... well, like I said, the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks will be worth more than the trophy.

Immie

 

[Jon]

So your argument is that they should let a known cheater keep the trophy? That will certainly set a standard for future players to live by.

 

[Immanuel]

I say the NCAA should punish the school for the violations starting now, but leave both the BCS Championship for that year and the Heisman Trophy alone.

I disagree completely. To punish this year's team for the actions of the team 5 years ago is completely unfair. The players 5 years ago should be punished, and the best the NCAA can do is strip them of their title and honors. The Heisman is one such honor.

It does not tarnish the name of the trophy. Was Reggie Bush the best player? Maybe. The voters of the award seemed to think so. However, he did not follow the rules, and based on that fact, I doubt the voters would have given him the award in the first place. They can't retroactively vote for it, because opinions would be altered based on player's performance in subsequent years (rather in college or the NFL). Thus, that year's award is vacant.

Good points, but I still disagree.

They have begun playing politics with the trophy and that will only end up in destroying the prestige of the trophy.

He probably should not have won in the first place, but they declared him to be the best college football player of the 2005 season. Their stripping him of the award does not change that fact.

Should they take all of the touchdowns he scored away from USC too? How about any game he played in being forfeited by USC?

How about Sammy Sosa and Mark MacGwire? They used steroids which was against the MLB rules. Should their home runs be wiped off the record books?

Taking the trophy away from Reggie Bush does not change the fact that he was considered the best college football player of 2005, just as Pete Rose's gambling problems do not change the fact that he is one of the best hitters ever to play the game.

It appears that Reggie Bush violated the rules of the NCAA. But having done so does not change the facts that he was considered the best college player for that season.

That is basically my point, stripping him of the trophy is playing politics with it. I suppose in the future they should decide who wins the trophy via a popularity contest such as any of the dozens of music/tv/movie awards that are presented every year.

Immie

 

[Jon]

Taking the trophy away from Reggie Bush does not change the fact that he was considered the best college football player of 2005, just as Pete Rose's gambling problems do not change the fact that he is one of the best hitters ever to play the game.

Rose's gambling problems had nothing to do with his sport. Bush's violations were in direct violation of his.

It appears that Reggie Bush violated the rules of the NCAA. But having done so does not change the facts that he was considered the best college player for that season.

You're right, it doesn't. And they are not giving the trophy to anyone else. They are taking the honor away from him. The point is to defer future players from doing what Bush did.

You have to remember that this award is granted to students, not grown men. These young men still have life lessons to learn, and awarding bad behavior is not the best way to exemplify that.

 

[Kat]

I am sure they did not. However, to go back now and say that he was not the number one player in college football, cheapens the trophy. I highly doubt USC is the only school that is guilty of such infractions.

Punish the school now that it has been determined that they violated the rules. It is too late to punish Reggie Bush. The history of the trophy will be dirtied if they take it away from him now.

Immie

hmm How will it dirty the history if it is take away?
I agree that it is too late to punish Reggie. (and btw, I think they should just leave things alone)

Dirty as in smudging the prestige of the trophy.

They've started playing politics with the Heisman. When sporting authorities start playing politics with their sports, they destroy the sport.

In this case, the trust is playing politics with the trophy. If they continue to do so... well, like I said, the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks will be worth more than the trophy.

Immie

I see no proof they have begun to play politics with it. More likely it always has been that way. A lot depends on the push.

College football is anything but destroyed.

 

[Immanuel]

Maybe I should put it this way, Kat and Jon, if the trust had simply moved on ignoring the mistake they seemed to have made by awarding the trophy to Reggie Bush and let the NCAA deal with the consequences, the trophy would still have the prestige it once had. If they start taking away the trophy because they don't approve of someone, then in the long run, the prestige of the trophy suffers.

Reggie Bush violated the rules of the game. He basically got away with it. Taking the trophy away from him, does nothing to him. He still has the honor of having won it in the first place and no one can take that away from him.

The only things this accomplishes is proving that later on the trust can take away your trophy for any reason it sees fit. This doesn't even accomplish the stated task of punishing Bush for breaking the rules as he has already received the contract (with its boosted figures) that he was going to receive by winning the trophy. Nothing can change that and this will not deter future players from breaking the rules. In fact, it may even encourage it, seeing as the success that Bush got because he broke the rules.

Hell, the way I would look at it is that Reggie Bush got away with it so can I. Who gives a shit if five years from now, they take away the trophy, I have the honor of winning it and the contracts to prove it. They can shove their piece of bronze up there butts in five years for all I care.

Immie

 

[konradv]

Why does the Heisman Trust care about NCAA rules anyway? They're different organizations, aren't they? They should be giving it to the best player, period. I have no respect for an organization that puts up roadblocks for athletes that would get them sued, if they tried it on any other student. Can you imagine a scholarship student in any other discipline being told they couldn't take a summer job in their chosen field? What can you say about the venality of an organization that generates billions from their teams, but forbids anyone from giving a cash-strapped athlete the money to go home and visit the family? I'm surprised they haven't been sued as a monopoly, because they are the de facto minor league for football and basketball. Young men who want to persue their chosen career in those sports have no alternative, but to agree to their draconian rules. Many don't even belong in college, but the NCAA doesn't stop them from being admitted. They only give lip-service to graduation rates, while racking up the dough on the talents of thousands of players who will never even make the pros. Minor league baseball and hockey players earn a salary. Why not "minor league" football and basketball players?

 

[Kat]

Maybe I should put it this way, Kat and Jon, if the trust had simply moved on ignoring the mistake they seemed to have made by awarding the trophy to Reggie Bush and let the NCAA deal with the consequences, the trophy would still have the prestige it once had. If they start taking away the trophy because they don't approve of someone, then in the long run, the prestige of the trophy suffers.

Reggie Bush violated the rules of the game. He basically got away with it. Taking the trophy away from him, does nothing to him. He still has the honor of having won it in the first place and no one can take that away from him.

The only things this accomplishes is proving that later on the trust can take away your trophy for any reason it sees fit. This doesn't even accomplish the stated task of punishing Bush for breaking the rules as he has already received the contract (with its boosted figures) that he was going to receive by winning the trophy. Nothing can change that and this will not deter future players from breaking the rules. In fact, it may even encourage it, seeing as the success that Bush got because he broke the rules.

Hell, the way I would look at it is that Reggie Bush got away with it so can I. Who gives a shit if five years from now, they take away the trophy, I have the honor of winning it and the contracts to prove it. They can shove their piece of bronze up there butts in five years for all I care.

Immie

Athletes are tempted all the time via agents. A lot of these athletes are not only poor, but remember they are ''kids''. Agents know how to work them.
It has become worse and worse. Yes YES..when an athlete is confronted by an agent, he should run for the hills, and report that agent. Sometimes that is just what they do...sometimes not, and they get caught up in the web of lies.

Some get caught, some do not.

USC is paying for what Reggie Bush did...but yes, there is more to it...like it appears some coaches knew.
It DOES ruin the reputation of Bush, and that will follow him always.

However, I do not see how that has a lot to do with the Heisman, since he was awarded it PRIOR to anything coming up. I do agree with much you say, and see where you are coming from, but disagree about what it does to the Heisman itself.

 

[Immanuel]

Maybe I should put it this way, Kat and Jon, if the trust had simply moved on ignoring the mistake they seemed to have made by awarding the trophy to Reggie Bush and let the NCAA deal with the consequences, the trophy would still have the prestige it once had. If they start taking away the trophy because they don't approve of someone, then in the long run, the prestige of the trophy suffers.

Reggie Bush violated the rules of the game. He basically got away with it. Taking the trophy away from him, does nothing to him. He still has the honor of having won it in the first place and no one can take that away from him.

The only things this accomplishes is proving that later on the trust can take away your trophy for any reason it sees fit. This doesn't even accomplish the stated task of punishing Bush for breaking the rules as he has already received the contract (with its boosted figures) that he was going to receive by winning the trophy. Nothing can change that and this will not deter future players from breaking the rules. In fact, it may even encourage it, seeing as the success that Bush got because he broke the rules.

Hell, the way I would look at it is that Reggie Bush got away with it so can I. Who gives a shit if five years from now, they take away the trophy, I have the honor of winning it and the contracts to prove it. They can shove their piece of bronze up there butts in five years for all I care.

Immie

Athletes are tempted all the time via agents. A lot of these athletes are not only poor, but remember they are ''kids''. Agents know how to work them.
It has become worse and worse. Yes YES..when an athlete is confronted by an agent, he should run for the hills, and report that agent. Sometimes that is just what they do...sometimes not, and they get caught up in the web of lies.

Some get caught, some do not.

USC is paying for what Reggie Bush did...but yes, there is more to it...like it appears some coaches knew.
It DOES ruin the reputation of Bush, and that will follow him always.

However, I do not see how that has a lot to do with the Heisman, since he was awarded it PRIOR to anything coming up. I do agree with much you say, and see where you are coming from, but disagree about what it does to the Heisman itself.

Maybe you misunderstand me?

The damage is done by the individuals who run the trust not the incident itself.

Immie

 

[Montrovant]

Hell, the way I would look at it is that Reggie Bush got away with it so can I. Who gives a shit if five years from now, they take away the trophy, I have the honor of winning it and the contracts to prove it. They can shove their piece of bronze up there butts in five years for all I care.

Immie

I think that, if the players were to look at it the same way you would, the trophy is pretty damn meaningless already. There's very little honor to winning it evinced by thinking it doesn't matter if it gets taken away later if my cheating (or at least rules-breaking) is found out.

Then again, I find college football pretty poor anyway; between the short time the players are around, the horrible system of choosing a champion, and the various scandals that have been found (and the assumption, justified or not, that those scandals we know about are just a small percentage of the rule breaking that goes on) I cannot get involved in watching college football.

I don't think it will dirty or cheapen the Heisman to take it from Bush, so long as it isn't retroactively awarded to another player.

 

[Mini 14]

NCAA sanctions are to punish the school, not the players.

And anyone who thinks the Heisman is not a popularity contest, well, they don't know jack about college football.

USC was out of control during the Bush/Carrol years, and the penalties handed down by the NCAA are meant to teach USC Administration not to allow that to happen again. They were justified, IMO, and I actually believe USC got off lightly on this one. They weren't even really trying to hide their violations, they were just flaunting them in front of the NCAA and everyone. The NCAA had no choice but to hammer them, and Bush's Heisman has to be vacated as he was not eligible to receive the award.

 

[Immanuel]

Hell, the way I would look at it is that Reggie Bush got away with it so can I. Who gives a shit if five years from now, they take away the trophy, I have the honor of winning it and the contracts to prove it. They can shove their piece of bronze up there butts in five years for all I care.

Immie

I think that, if the players were to look at it the same way you would, the trophy is pretty damn meaningless already. There's very little honor to winning it evinced by thinking it doesn't matter if it gets taken away later if my cheating (or at least rules-breaking) is found out.

Then again, I find college football pretty poor anyway; between the short time the players are around, the horrible system of choosing a champion, and the various scandals that have been found (and the assumption, justified or not, that those scandals we know about are just a small percentage of the rule breaking that goes on) I cannot get involved in watching college football.

I don't think it will dirty or cheapen the Heisman to take it from Bush, so long as it isn't retroactively awarded to another player.

I have to agree with you about college football in general.

As for the trust taking the trophy away from Bush, my problem stems from the fact that when the organizers of a sports league or trophy start playing political games with the sport they effectively destroy it.

It has happened so many times, that you would think they would have figured it out by now. Don't mess with a good thing.

Bush cheated and did not deserve the trophy. But five years later is too late to deal with the problem. There must be a statute of limitations involved. The fact that the trust did not do its due diligence when awarding the 2005 trophy will only make all future trophies awarded suspect.

Immie

 

[Kat]

Maybe I should put it this way, Kat and Jon, if the trust had simply moved on ignoring the mistake they seemed to have made by awarding the trophy to Reggie Bush and let the NCAA deal with the consequences, the trophy would still have the prestige it once had. If they start taking away the trophy because they don't approve of someone, then in the long run, the prestige of the trophy suffers.

Reggie Bush violated the rules of the game. He basically got away with it. Taking the trophy away from him, does nothing to him. He still has the honor of having won it in the first place and no one can take that away from him.

The only things this accomplishes is proving that later on the trust can take away your trophy for any reason it sees fit. This doesn't even accomplish the stated task of punishing Bush for breaking the rules as he has already received the contract (with its boosted figures) that he was going to receive by winning the trophy. Nothing can change that and this will not deter future players from breaking the rules. In fact, it may even encourage it, seeing as the success that Bush got because he broke the rules.

Hell, the way I would look at it is that Reggie Bush got away with it so can I. Who gives a shit if five years from now, they take away the trophy, I have the honor of winning it and the contracts to prove it. They can shove their piece of bronze up there butts in five years for all I care.

Immie

Athletes are tempted all the time via agents. A lot of these athletes are not only poor, but remember they are ''kids''. Agents know how to work them.
It has become worse and worse. Yes YES..when an athlete is confronted by an agent, he should run for the hills, and report that agent. Sometimes that is just what they do...sometimes not, and they get caught up in the web of lies.

Some get caught, some do not.

USC is paying for what Reggie Bush did...but yes, there is more to it...like it appears some coaches knew.
It DOES ruin the reputation of Bush, and that will follow him always.

However, I do not see how that has a lot to do with the Heisman, since he was awarded it PRIOR to anything coming up. I do agree with much you say, and see where you are coming from, but disagree about what it does to the Heisman itself.

Maybe you misunderstand me?

The damage is done by the individuals who run the trust not the incident itself.

Immie

Okay, maybe I misunderstand you, but I do not agree that there is any damage to the Heisman itself. It is what it is, and always has been.