The Heart of the AGW Premise Fails Empirical Review.

[CrusaderFrank]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body." DAFUQ??? Space at absolute zero is heating things? really?? on what planet?

Space at absolute zero is heating things?

Matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Yes, my ship is without power, hopelessly adrift in the emptiness of space, but no worries, we getting all the heat we need from the -370F on the ship's hull

Frankie boi, you don't seem to be able to read even simple sentences with any degree of understanding. Specifically stated that matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

So kick it up a few degrees and explain how space at -450F will "warm" our ship

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Yes, my ship is without power, hopelessly adrift in the emptiness of space, but no worries, we getting all the heat we need from the -370F on the ship's hull

Frankie boi, you don't seem to be able to read even simple sentences with any degree of understanding. Specifically stated that matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The battery in my cell phone was about dead and when I hooked it up to the charger, the dead battery provided power into the electric grid. Maybe we all need to hook up our dead batteries to power up the electric grid when NYS decommissions Indian Point and causes black-outs and deaths throughout Westchester County and NYC

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body." DAFUQ??? Space at absolute zero is heating things? really?? on what planet?

Space at absolute zero is heating things?

Matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body." DAFUQ??? Space at absolute zero is heating things? really?? on what planet?

Space at absolute zero is heating things?

Matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body." DAFUQ??? Space at absolute zero is heating things? really?? on what planet?

Space at absolute zero is heating things?

Matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

 

[polarbear]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

So then you can provide observed, measured examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool regions to warm regions? Of course you can't...but you just had to speak up anyway didn't you?

Well here it is. He finally said it:"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body"
And as soon as you point out that if it was this cooler body which added energy to the warmer then the cooler body would have had to cool down even more. We all know that can`t happen, so they "explain" it by pointing out that the warmer body radiates at the same time towards the cooler one which is why both will equilibrate at equal temperatures but below the temperature the warmer one had at the start...which unfortunately means it did not gain any energy but lost it to the colder one. At that point they all over sudden resort to a 3rd energy source, the sun and deny they added energy to the warmer body by just using a cooler body.
Heat energy in whatever form is expressed in work units. It takes work (=energy) to raise the temperature of a mass and the colder body can not perform this work. Which is why there is no way around that except using the 3rd source, the sun again while obfuscating the "added energy from the colder body" process.
That is accomplished by ignoring the mass of each of the 2 bodies which in the end is what they need to do in order to use the CO2 to "add energy" to Ew. On average air has a specific heat of 0.24 btu per degF and per pound. See how easy it was to do that CO2 and "energy adding" cheat by simply ignoring the mass ?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body." DAFUQ??? Space at absolute zero is heating things? really?? on what planet?

Space at absolute zero is heating things?

Matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Space at absolute zero is heating things?

Matter at absolute zero does not radiate.

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong,

I'll pray for your recovery from your recent brain injury.

If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area.

It is evident.
By the slower cooling of the warmer body.

Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe

The natural state is everything emitting in every direction, all the time.
Until you reach 0K.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

So then you can provide observed, measured examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool regions to warm regions? Of course you can't...but you just had to speak up anyway didn't you?

Well here it is. He finally said it:"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body"
And as soon as you point out that if it was this cooler body which added energy to the warmer then the cooler body would have had to cool down even more. We all know that can`t happen, so they "explain" it by pointing out that the warmer body radiates at the same time towards the cooler one which is why both will equilibrate at equal temperatures but below the temperature the warmer one had at the start...which unfortunately means it did not gain any energy but lost it to the colder one. At that point they all over sudden resort to a 3rd energy source, the sun and deny they added energy to the warmer body by just using a cooler body.
Heat energy in whatever form is expressed in work units. It takes work (=energy) to raise the temperature of a mass and the colder body can not perform this work. Which is why there is no way around that except using the 3rd source, the sun again while obfuscating the "added energy from the colder body" process.
That is accomplished by ignoring the mass of each of the 2 bodies which in the end is what they need to do in order to use the CO2 to "add energy" to Ew. On average air has a specific heat of 0.24 btu per degF and per pound. See how easy it was to do that CO2 and "energy adding" cheat by simply ignoring the mass ?

He finally said it:"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body"

Do you feel that radiation from a cooler body is prohibited from hitting a warmer body?

 

[Old Rocks]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

So then you can provide observed, measured examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool regions to warm regions? Of course you can't...but you just had to speak up anyway didn't you?

Well here it is. He finally said it:"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body"
And as soon as you point out that if it was this cooler body which added energy to the warmer then the cooler body would have had to cool down even more. We all know that can`t happen, so they "explain" it by pointing out that the warmer body radiates at the same time towards the cooler one which is why both will equilibrate at equal temperatures but below the temperature the warmer one had at the start...which unfortunately means it did not gain any energy but lost it to the colder one. At that point they all over sudden resort to a 3rd energy source, the sun and deny they added energy to the warmer body by just using a cooler body.
Heat energy in whatever form is expressed in work units. It takes work (=energy) to raise the temperature of a mass and the colder body can not perform this work. Which is why there is no way around that except using the 3rd source, the sun again while obfuscating the "added energy from the colder body" process.
That is accomplished by ignoring the mass of each of the 2 bodies which in the end is what they need to do in order to use the CO2 to "add energy" to Ew. On average air has a specific heat of 0.24 btu per degF and per pound. See how easy it was to do that CO2 and "energy adding" cheat by simply ignoring the mass ?

LOL Yes, when a body radiates energy, it cools. And just what the fuck do you mean that a colder body cannot 'perform this work'? We are not talking of work, we are speaking of individual packets of energy, photons, that all bodies above absolute zero emit. And those photons don't give a damn whether they strike, and add energy, to a body warmer or cooler than the one that emitted that photon. Again, a cooler body can emit a photon that strikes a warmer body and adds energy to that body. Simple physical fact.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Rigggggggggggggggggght, so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship. What a comfort

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong,

I'll pray for your recovery from your recent brain injury.

If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area.

It is evident.
By the slower cooling of the warmer body.

Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe

The natural state is everything emitting in every direction, all the time.
Until you reach 0K.

You say so, but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released cuz yannow it radiates in all directions

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

so the space touching the hull at -450F will warm the ship

Why do you feel that? Is the ship colder than -450F?

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong,

I'll pray for your recovery from your recent brain injury.

If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area.

It is evident.
By the slower cooling of the warmer body.

Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe

The natural state is everything emitting in every direction, all the time.
Until you reach 0K.

You say so, but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released cuz yannow it radiates in all directions

You say so,

Science says so. Stefan-Boltzmann says so. Entropy says so.

but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released

No, blackbody radiation is not like that. Not even a little.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

No the hull is warmer, for now. Are you saying that the -450F space no longer warms the ship? What happened?

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong,

I'll pray for your recovery from your recent brain injury.

If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area.

It is evident.
By the slower cooling of the warmer body.

Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe

The natural state is everything emitting in every direction, all the time.
Until you reach 0K.

You say so, but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released cuz yannow it radiates in all directions

You say so,

Science says so. Stefan-Boltzmann says so. Entropy says so.

but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released

No, blackbody radiation is not like that. Not even a little.

The bowling ball is ignoring the call of gravity and radiating toward the lower gravitational field at the ceiling

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

No the hull is warmer, for now.

Well, in that case, even though photons from the -450F matter in space are hitting the hull, the larger number of photons being emitted by the warmer than -450F hull still result in cooling of the hull.

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong,

I'll pray for your recovery from your recent brain injury.

If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area.

It is evident.
By the slower cooling of the warmer body.

Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe

The natural state is everything emitting in every direction, all the time.
Until you reach 0K.

You say so, but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released cuz yannow it radiates in all directions

You say so,

Science says so. Stefan-Boltzmann says so. Entropy says so.

but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released

No, blackbody radiation is not like that. Not even a little.

The bowling ball is ignoring the call of gravity and radiating toward the lower gravitational field at the ceiling

Matter isn't ignoring anything when it radiates in all directions.
Even when it radiates toward something warmer.

 

[Sunsettommy]

SSoDDumb, there is nobody on this board with a modicum of education that accepts your nonsense concerning radiation and energy. All you have is total ignoramuses like Silly Billy and his 'negative' energy agreeing with you.

Can't answer his simple question...…, again...…..

Then you are just blustering.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong, that surely there was a 2 way flow of energy from cooler to warmer. If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area. Just because. Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe, like darkness disappearing in the presence of light. The darkness does not make the light darker; the light transform the darkness, just because those are the rules here

When I first joined these conversations I thought SSDD was wrong,

I'll pray for your recovery from your recent brain injury.

If we could "color" the cooler energy, we'd see it evident in the warmer area.

It is evident.
By the slower cooling of the warmer body.

Then it occurred to me that going from warmer to cooler is a natural state of the Universe

The natural state is everything emitting in every direction, all the time.
Until you reach 0K.

You say so, but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released cuz yannow it radiates in all directions

You say so,

Science says so. Stefan-Boltzmann says so. Entropy says so.

but that's like a bowling ball floating up to the ceiling when it's released

No, blackbody radiation is not like that. Not even a little.

The bowling ball is ignoring the call of gravity and radiating toward the lower gravitational field at the ceiling

Matter isn't ignoring anything when it radiates in all directions.
Even when it radiates toward something warmer.

So some portion of the bowling ball is actually moving towards the ceiling? 50%? What portion?

 

[polarbear]

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

So then you can provide observed, measured examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool regions to warm regions? Of course you can't...but you just had to speak up anyway didn't you?

Well here it is. He finally said it:"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body"
And as soon as you point out that if it was this cooler body which added energy to the warmer then the cooler body would have had to cool down even more. We all know that can`t happen, so they "explain" it by pointing out that the warmer body radiates at the same time towards the cooler one which is why both will equilibrate at equal temperatures but below the temperature the warmer one had at the start...which unfortunately means it did not gain any energy but lost it to the colder one. At that point they all over sudden resort to a 3rd energy source, the sun and deny they added energy to the warmer body by just using a cooler body.
Heat energy in whatever form is expressed in work units. It takes work (=energy) to raise the temperature of a mass and the colder body can not perform this work. Which is why there is no way around that except using the 3rd source, the sun again while obfuscating the "added energy from the colder body" process.
That is accomplished by ignoring the mass of each of the 2 bodies which in the end is what they need to do in order to use the CO2 to "add energy" to Ew. On average air has a specific heat of 0.24 btu per degF and per pound. See how easy it was to do that CO2 and "energy adding" cheat by simply ignoring the mass ?

LOL Yes, when a body radiates energy, it cools. And just what the fuck do you mean that a colder body cannot 'perform this work'? We are not talking of work, we are speaking of individual packets of energy, photons, that all bodies above absolute zero emit. And those photons don't give a damn whether they strike, and add energy, to a body warmer or cooler than the one that emitted that photon. Again, a cooler body can emit a photon that strikes a warmer body and adds energy to that body. Simple physical fact.

The Earth is not a closed system. And we are not talking about heat flow, but radiation. Everything radiates if it is not at absolute zero. And a photon from a body does not care if it intercepts a warmer body than the one that emitted that photon. So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body.

So then you can provide observed, measured examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool regions to warm regions? Of course you can't...but you just had to speak up anyway didn't you?

Well here it is. He finally said it:"So, yes, radiation from a cooler body can add energy to a warmer body"
And as soon as you point out that if it was this cooler body which added energy to the warmer then the cooler body would have had to cool down even more. We all know that can`t happen, so they "explain" it by pointing out that the warmer body radiates at the same time towards the cooler one which is why both will equilibrate at equal temperatures but below the temperature the warmer one had at the start...which unfortunately means it did not gain any energy but lost it to the colder one. At that point they all over sudden resort to a 3rd energy source, the sun and deny they added energy to the warmer body by just using a cooler body.
Heat energy in whatever form is expressed in work units. It takes work (=energy) to raise the temperature of a mass and the colder body can not perform this work. Which is why there is no way around that except using the 3rd source, the sun again while obfuscating the "added energy from the colder body" process.
That is accomplished by ignoring the mass of each of the 2 bodies which in the end is what they need to do in order to use the CO2 to "add energy" to Ew. On average air has a specific heat of 0.24 btu per degF and per pound. See how easy it was to do that CO2 and "energy adding" cheat by simply ignoring the mass ?

LOL Yes, when a body radiates energy, it cools. And just what the fuck do you mean that a colder body cannot 'perform this work'? We are not talking of work, we are speaking of individual packets of energy, photons, that all bodies above absolute zero emit. And those photons don't give a damn whether they strike, and add energy, to a body warmer or cooler than the one that emitted that photon. Again, a cooler body can emit a photon that strikes a warmer body and adds energy to that body. Simple physical fact.

Okay I`ll make it real simple for you OldRocks.
If you grab a hot potato in a kitchen sink the energy content in the sink is that of your hand and the potato.
Now you crank open the cold water faucet and you say the cold water "added energy" to the potato.
The only thing that got energy "added" was the kitchen sink, but not the potato.
The kitchen sink now holds the calories of the mass of water at x degrees + whatever cals the potato amounted to...but in no way was any energy added to the potato from the cold water...comprendre?

 

[IanC]

Your question is framed in a nonsensical way. Net energy, heat, always flows from warm to cold.

So you keep saying...but you don't seem to be able to come up with an observed, measured example of it...what you come up with in spades is evidence that you are easily fooled by instrumentation.

And if all this were as simple as your "mind" experiments suggest, surely there would be observed, measured examples...we both know that there aren't...because your mind experiments are terribly flawed.

What a confusing statement this is:

"Net energy, heat, always flows from warm to cold."

How does it become net when energy flows in ONE direction from high to low, hot to cold and so on.

I am sorry you are so easily confused.

All heat is energy but energy is not always heat.

This conversation is mainly concerned with radiation. Radiation does not need matter to transport energy, only to produce it and to accept it. Unlike conduction and convection.

Therefore energy via radiation can, and does, travel in both (all) directions at the same time. Matter mediated energy transfer is only in one direction, at the level of the net competing energies.

SSDD thinks the temperature of the first object controls the production of radiation in the second object. And vice versa.