The glaring evidence that Obamacare is a catastrophic FAILURE continues to mount

[BlackSand]

How do you punish a wealthy person?

I didn't say that you were punishing just wealthy people ... I said there is no benefit to competition ... If the result of that competition is to have your rewards stolen from you and handed to the loser.

.

 

[PMZ]

You can force me to pay taxes at the point of a gun to fund your socialist programs, but you can't force me to be a socialist. You can claim I'm a socialist if you want but if you do on my property you best come with friends.

You do understand that capitalism and socialism are economic systems, right? They are not religions. They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Capitalism just doesn't work without competition. Socialism is not as efficient as capitalism with competition.

The right tool for a particular job is just common sense.

>> You do understand that capitalism and socialism are economic systems, right?
Yes.

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.
Incorrect assumption.

>> Capitalism just doesn't work without competition.
Correct assumption.

>> Socialism is not as efficient as capitalism with competition.
Correct assumption.

>> The right tool for a particular job is just common sense.
I agree with this postulate.

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Incorrect assumption.

Which one is good, which evil, and why?

 

[PMZ]

How do you punish a wealthy person?

I didn't say that you were punishing just wealthy people ... I said there is no benefit to competition ... If the result of that competition is to have your rewards stolen from you and handed to the loser.

.

Then why do you work? Why not choose poverty?

 

[RKMBrown]

You do understand that capitalism and socialism are economic systems, right? They are not religions. They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Capitalism just doesn't work without competition. Socialism is not as efficient as capitalism with competition.

The right tool for a particular job is just common sense.

>> You do understand that capitalism and socialism are economic systems, right?
Yes.

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.
Incorrect assumption.

>> Capitalism just doesn't work without competition.
Correct assumption.

>> Socialism is not as efficient as capitalism with competition.
Correct assumption.

>> The right tool for a particular job is just common sense.
I agree with this postulate.

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Incorrect assumption.

Which one is good, which evil, and why?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects, thus incapable of good or evil.
Economic systems, however, apply to people as they control a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. As such these systems are capable of good and evil.

 

[beagle9]

Again the age old trick of propagandists. Speak for your scapegoats. Tell people what THEY are thinking.

I'm every bit as much a capitalist as socialist just as I bear no prejudice against either hammers or screwdrivers. The right tool for the right job.

You've been led to your place of ignorance by capitalist propaganda drooling over markets in which there is no competition. Nirvana for them, hell for the consumers.

There is no bigger obstacle to make more money regardless of the cost to others than competition.

Talk about propaganda ... You are so full of it you don't recognize it in yourself.

It really doesn't matter if you think you are a capitalist or a socialist.
It doesn't matter if you like hammers, screwdrivers ... Taxes, markets or the Federal Reserve.
The problem is that you don't have a clue which tool to use on the job ... Much less the ability to understand the right job.

If you think that wealth redistribution is a tool that creates competition ... By punishing the people that succeed when competitive ... Then I think it is fair to say that you are neither a capitalist nor a socialist ... And more along the lines of an idiot.

.

How do you punish a wealthy person?

Wealthy people as a blanket term to punish is just plain wrong, and it should be more about how to fix a system without punishing the wrong people when the hammer and screwdriver is applied for the fix.

Wouldn't you agree ?

I mean why would you want to create enemies in people for whom no enemies should exist ? Or is it that the wealthy have to be grouped together in this as a whole, in order to make them a bigger target to be zeroed in on when the redistribution takes place in the many forms that it will take ? I think it is more of a targeting of a culture than it is of a problem with their wealth as the target per sae, where as if you take their wealth and redistribute it away from them, then you leave them more powerless as a group to be effective in empowering their culture with such wealth right on and right on.

Otherwise in order to fundamentally transform America, you first have to shift the wealth out of the hands of those who have acquired it, and you must use any means possible to do this in order to affectively make this threat of a fundamental change viable & meaningful. Is this what it is all about when one gets right down to it ?

 

[BlackSand]

How do you punish a wealthy person?

I didn't say that you were punishing just wealthy people ... I said there is no benefit to competition ... If the result of that competition is to have your rewards stolen from you and handed to the loser.

.

Then why do you work? Why not choose poverty?

Great Question ... And I can say I certainly don't work so you can choose to keep someone else in poverty.

I don't choose poverty because it is not beneficial towards achieving my goal to become a productive member of society ... Self-Reliance and the Freedom to enjoy the fruits of my labor are not paramount above my ability to help others.
They are principles I have ... And that I choose to employ in a manner that helps others achieve those same goals ... I respect others, understand their difficulties (been there) ... But never give up on them.
I don't need the government handling that responsibility ... Just because people like you are too lazy and neglect your own duties ... Then get the idea that making excuses for your failures somehow makes it okay.

Your hammer, screwdriver, paintbrush or bulldozer ... Mean absolutely nothing until you take them out of the hands of the government ... Put them in the hands of the people ... And allow us all to build better lives for ourselves.

.

 

[beagle9]

>> You do understand that capitalism and socialism are economic systems, right?
Yes.

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.
Incorrect assumption.

>> Capitalism just doesn't work without competition.
Correct assumption.

>> Socialism is not as efficient as capitalism with competition.
Correct assumption.

>> The right tool for a particular job is just common sense.
I agree with this postulate.

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Incorrect assumption.

Which one is good, which evil, and why?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects, thus incapable of good or evil.
Economic systems, however, apply to people as they control a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. As such these systems are capable of good and evil.

Ummm, the hammers and screwdrivers are given a new character or task in her meaning to represent specific terms for fixing things, so them being as inanimate objects really doesn't apply within her analogy. Right ?

 

[beagle9]

I didn't say that you were punishing just wealthy people ... I said there is no benefit to competition ... If the result of that competition is to have your rewards stolen from you and handed to the loser.

.

Then why do you work? Why not choose poverty?

Great Question ... And I can say I certainly don't work so you can choose to keep someone else in poverty.

I don't choose poverty because it is not beneficial towards achieving my goal to become a productive member of society ... Self-Reliance and the Freedom to enjoy the fruits of my labor are not paramount above my ability to help others.
They are principles I have ... And that I choose to employ in a manner that helps others achieve those same goals ... I respect others, understand their difficulties (been there) ... But never give up on them.
I don't need the government handling that responsibility ... Just because people like you are too lazy and neglect your own duties ... Then get the idea that making excuses for your failures somehow makes it okay.

Your hammer, screwdriver, paintbrush or bulldozer ... Mean absolutely nothing until you take them out of the hands of the government ... Put them in the hands of the people ... And allow us all to build better lives for ourselves.

.

The fear that PMZ has, is that putting this power and/or keeping this power in the hands of a people gone greedy as is her opinion, is not acceptable any longer for her. She feels that they had forgotten their responsibility to the poor as found in the scheme of things over time, where as the rich were more than willing to cast that responsibility onto the government in the past just as they still are now.

This way they could focus on the business of getting richer and richer without being bogged down by problems such as this within their greedy lives as according to PMZ's thinking. Now the government recognizes that allowing this off balanced situation to build and build and build, along with their mismanagement of the poor on their part, has come to a head.

Now what to do, what to do right ?

What the government has been doing, is it has been handling it for them this responsibility in which it had been given. The problem is, is that the government is the poorest manager of these things that there is, and that is a huge problem for us all. The government actually incentivized the creation of more poverty on top of poverty under their management, so you can understand why people don't trust the government to do these things any longer. So this may be why you are saying what you are saying upon what you are saying about putting the responsibility back into the hands of the people right ?

 

[Kathy58]

 

[beagle9]

What should have been done, is that there should have been a specific website built by each state under federal regulations that would have guided them to add the new regulations as represented for their state, and they should have been placed at the entrance of each state on the web concerning health care in that state, and not some single website built and run by the government for the whole thing, I mean if this is what the situation is now.

 

[RKMBrown]

>> They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Incorrect assumption.

Which one is good, which evil, and why?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects, thus incapable of good or evil.
Economic systems, however, apply to people as they control a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. As such these systems are capable of good and evil.

Ummm, the hammers and screwdrivers are given a new character or task in her meaning to represent specific terms for fixing things, so them being as inanimate objects really doesn't apply within her analogy. Right ?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects. They are tools used by people to accomplish tasks according to systems for completing said tasks. Treating people like tools to be used and tossed about against their will in an economic system is just plain evil. Why? Because people are not inanimate objects.

 

[BlackSand]

What the government has been doing, is it has been handling it for them this responsibility in which it had been given. The problem is, is that the government is the poorest manager of these things that there is, and that is a huge problem for us all. The government actually incentivized the creation of more poverty on top of poverty under their management, so you can understand why people don't trust the government to do these things any longer. So this may be why you are saying what you are saying upon what you are saying about putting the responsibility back into the hands of the people right ?

I can say whatever I say until the day is done ... But it is only what I do that ever makes a difference.

Simple analogy ...

If I am driving down the road and see my neighbor's truck stuck in the ditch ... I have choices.
I can choose to call 911 ... And unnecessarily clog the emergency switchboard with a complaint and request they are neither equipped nor responsible in handling.
They can tell me to hang up the phone ... Call the local towing agency ... And send me the bill ... But that isn't what I want either.

I can choose to go to the barn ... Get my tractor and a cargo strap ... Then pull my neighbor out of the ditch.
I don't need help from the 911 switchboard that isn't interested in helping me nor my neighbor ... Unless they might happen to get a kickback from the towing company for sending them business.

It would only be if I made the choice to call 911 ... Who never fixed the problem to start with ... And then had them send you the bill ... That I would be both stupid and disingenuous trying to tell you that is a good thing.

.

 

[PMZ]

I didn't say that you were punishing just wealthy people ... I said there is no benefit to competition ... If the result of that competition is to have your rewards stolen from you and handed to the loser.

.

Then why do you work? Why not choose poverty?

Great Question ... And I can say I certainly don't work so you can choose to keep someone else in poverty.

I don't choose poverty because it is not beneficial towards achieving my goal to become a productive member of society ... Self-Reliance and the Freedom to enjoy the fruits of my labor are not paramount above my ability to help others.
They are principles I have ... And that I choose to employ in a manner that helps others achieve those same goals ... I respect others, understand their difficulties (been there) ... But never give up on them.
I don't need the government handling that responsibility ... Just because people like you are too lazy and neglect your own duties ... Then get the idea that making excuses for your failures somehow makes it okay.

Your hammer, screwdriver, paintbrush or bulldozer ... Mean absolutely nothing until you take them out of the hands of the government ... Put them in the hands of the people ... And allow us all to build better lives for ourselves.

.

It's interesting that you don't see government as of, by, and for the people but as something alien and evil.

 

[PMZ]

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects, thus incapable of good or evil.
Economic systems, however, apply to people as they control a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. As such these systems are capable of good and evil.

Ummm, the hammers and screwdrivers are given a new character or task in her meaning to represent specific terms for fixing things, so them being as inanimate objects really doesn't apply within her analogy. Right ?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects. They are tools used by people to accomplish tasks according to systems for completing said tasks. Treating people like tools to be used and tossed about against their will in an economic system is just plain evil. Why? Because people are not inanimate objects.

You sure get worked up about capitalism vs socialism where the only difference is whether, in a particular market, the means of production are owned by some of the people or all of the people.

 

[BlackSand]

Then why do you work? Why not choose poverty?

Great Question ... And I can say I certainly don't work so you can choose to keep someone else in poverty.

I don't choose poverty because it is not beneficial towards achieving my goal to become a productive member of society ... Self-Reliance and the Freedom to enjoy the fruits of my labor are not paramount above my ability to help others.
They are principles I have ... And that I choose to employ in a manner that helps others achieve those same goals ... I respect others, understand their difficulties (been there) ... But never give up on them.
I don't need the government handling that responsibility ... Just because people like you are too lazy and neglect your own duties ... Then get the idea that making excuses for your failures somehow makes it okay.

Your hammer, screwdriver, paintbrush or bulldozer ... Mean absolutely nothing until you take them out of the hands of the government ... Put them in the hands of the people ... And allow us all to build better lives for ourselves.

.

It's interesting that you don't see government as of, by, and for the people but as something alien and evil.

I didn't say the government was evil at all ...
I said it was ill-equipped to handle the problem ... Then came closer to calling people like you evil for neglecting your responsibilities, blaming someone else ... Then sending me the bill.

.

 

[RKMBrown]

Ummm, the hammers and screwdrivers are given a new character or task in her meaning to represent specific terms for fixing things, so them being as inanimate objects really doesn't apply within her analogy. Right ?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects. They are tools used by people to accomplish tasks according to systems for completing said tasks. Treating people like tools to be used and tossed about against their will in an economic system is just plain evil. Why? Because people are not inanimate objects.

You sure get worked up about capitalism vs socialism where the only difference is whether, in a particular market, the means of production are owned by some of the people or all of the people.

Where did I say a single thing about capitalism vs. socialism in that post?

To your point of means of production, the issue is earned vs unearned ownership. Progress through effort or progress through theft, rape, abuse of others.

 

[PMZ]

What the government has been doing, is it has been handling it for them this responsibility in which it had been given. The problem is, is that the government is the poorest manager of these things that there is, and that is a huge problem for us all. The government actually incentivized the creation of more poverty on top of poverty under their management, so you can understand why people don't trust the government to do these things any longer. So this may be why you are saying what you are saying upon what you are saying about putting the responsibility back into the hands of the people right ?

I can say whatever I say until the day is done ... But it is only what I do that ever makes a difference.

Simple analogy ...

If I am driving down the road and see my neighbor's truck stuck in the ditch ... I have choices.
I can choose to call 911 ... And unnecessarily clog the emergency switchboard with a complaint and request they are neither equipped nor responsible in handling.
They can tell me to hang up the phone ... Call the local towing agency ... And send me the bill ... But that isn't what I want either.

I can choose to go to the barn ... Get my tractor and a cargo strap ... Then pull my neighbor out of the ditch.
I don't need help from the 911 switchboard that isn't interested in helping me nor my neighbor ... Unless they might happen to get a kickback from the towing company for sending them business.

It would only be if I made the choice to call 911 ... Who never fixed the problem to start with ... And then had them send you the bill ... That I would be both stupid and disingenuous trying to tell you that is a good thing.

.

Another possibility is to take the conservative approach and ignore the problem. After all, it's not yours.

If you did call 911 they would tell that they are only equipped to handle emergencies and this is no one.

You could stop and ask your neighbor if he had already called for help or if he would like to borrow your phone to call.

Or perhaps the neighbor was in a hurry to get someplace and you could offer him a ride.

 

[BlackSand]

Another possibility is to take the conservative approach and ignore the problem. After all, it's not yours.

If you did call 911 they would tell that they are only equipped to handle emergencies and this is no one.

You could stop and ask your neighbor if he had already called for help or if he would like to borrow your phone to call.

Or perhaps the neighbor was in a hurry to get someplace and you could offer him a ride.

I am a Conservative ... And the approach you offered is not acceptable for me ... So you would be incorrect ... Again.

I mean face it ... I didn't even think of that excuse ... You did!
That is because that is all you ever offer ... passing the responsibility off to others or the government ... It is practically second nature for you and your kind, and I bet it didn't take you a second to think up.

Being stupid enough to ask 911 to handle a problem they are obviously not equipped to handle ... Is just as stupid as asking the government to handle what they are not equipped to handle.
At least that made a dent ... And we found something to agree on ... Thank God you got that point right.

I don't have to ask my neighbor if he needs help genius ... His truck is stuck in the ditch.
It won't matter if he called someone else when I show up with the tractor and the strap ... And he will get where he needs to go a lot easier and quicker when I get his truck out of the ditch.
The only reason he would need to use my phone ... Is if he needs to call someone and tell them he is on his way.

You really are stupid aren't you ... !?!!

Edit: Progressive Liberals need to get the hell out of the world of "what-if's" ... And start living in the world of "what is".

.

 

[beagle9]

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects, thus incapable of good or evil.
Economic systems, however, apply to people as they control a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. As such these systems are capable of good and evil.

Ummm, the hammers and screwdrivers are given a new character or task in her meaning to represent specific terms for fixing things, so them being as inanimate objects really doesn't apply within her analogy. Right ?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects. They are tools used by people to accomplish tasks according to systems for completing said tasks. Treating people like tools to be used and tossed about against their will in an economic system is just plain evil. Why? Because people are not inanimate objects.

I don't think the analogy was meant by her to suggest that people were inanimate objects, but rather her tool analogy was used to adjust or tweek the system in ways that would fix it, now with said tools representing different fixes, then I guess we need to find out what the tools represent in her mind. What does the screwdriver represent and what does the hammer represent, and then will it fix the problem or not when applied in the way that it is applied by her ? Lets say that the hammer represents single payer, would that fix the problem finally ?

 

[RKMBrown]

Ummm, the hammers and screwdrivers are given a new character or task in her meaning to represent specific terms for fixing things, so them being as inanimate objects really doesn't apply within her analogy. Right ?

Hammers and screwdrivers are inanimate objects. They are tools used by people to accomplish tasks according to systems for completing said tasks. Treating people like tools to be used and tossed about against their will in an economic system is just plain evil. Why? Because people are not inanimate objects.

I don't think the analogy was meant by her to suggest that people were inanimate objects, but rather her tool analogy was used to adjust or tweek the system in ways that would fix it, now with said tools representing different fixes, then I guess we need to find out what the tools represent in her mind. What does the screwdriver represent and what does the hammer represent, and then will it fix the problem or not when applied in the way that it is applied by her ? Lets say that the hammer represents single payer, would that fix the problem finally ?

That's a lot guessing. But you lost me on what he/she was saying is evil. The tools, the policies, the people, or some metaphor about fixing things? Maybe you could rewrite what he/she said while still using the same terms, then we could discussion that version.. all i did was read it as written, subject verb and all that.

>> You do understand that capitalism and socialism are economic systems, right? They are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdrivers are.

Please rewrite the second sentence in context of the first sentence.

They are the economic systems. Thus he/she is saying, capitalism and socialism are no more good or evil than hammers and screwdivers are.

IMO this sentence means the author equates economic systems with tools, and as such are impossible of evil. IMO that is grossly incorrect.