The future of America and China. Is the CIA and FBI paying attention?

[my2¢]

I look to Wall Street for our policy with China and I don't expect Wall Street to rally around losing cheap labor, cheap goods and cutting into corporate profits.

 

[Mac-7]

The Chinse use capitalism as their economic model-

No, they use mercantilism to destroy foreign competition to make china the dominant player in every market worldwide

and as their economic strength grows so does their military power

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The fear mongering should have been done 20 years ago by more than a handful. Now fear mongering isn't the word because China is well entrenched, it's either "stand up for America or be toppled and absorbed".

It's clear that the communist party have far more global power and influence than had been acknowledged publicly. They intend to have much more. Elitists living in their bubbles don't care, nor weak leaders who want centralized power for their own ambitions.

The fear mongering about communist begn in earnest in the 50's even though Stalin and Ike were buddy's and the USSR didn't want a war with the US- see the Dulles brothers for illustration, then the South American debacles and Vietnam- and Cuba turned to the USSR because the US got greedy and demanding

The Chinse use capitalism as their economic model- they don't like the fiat currency of the fed reserve being the currency of choice or the crony capitalism as the enFORCEr so they buy gold, in large quantities- and like it or not, we live in a global economy which means the Chinese have as much to lose as we do and no amount of fear mongering will change that. I guar on tee that "trading" with is much better than warring with.

So you don't believe that China is a threat.

OK

Interesting

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Trump needs to turn the FBI loose

You know Sen Feinstein's office has a hotline to Xi and the CCP

 

[shockedcanadian]

The fear mongering should have been done 20 years ago by more than a handful. Now fear mongering isn't the word because China is well entrenched, it's either "stand up for America or be toppled and absorbed".

It's clear that the communist party have far more global power and influence than had been acknowledged publicly. They intend to have much more. Elitists living in their bubbles don't care, nor weak leaders who want centralized power for their own ambitions.

The fear mongering about communist begn in earnest in the 50's even though Stalin and Ike were buddy's and the USSR didn't want a war with the US- see the Dulles brothers for illustration, then the South American debacles and Vietnam- and Cuba turned to the USSR because the US got greedy and demanding

The Chinse use capitalism as their economic model- they don't like the fiat currency of the fed reserve being the currency of choice or the crony capitalism as the enFORCEr so they buy gold, in large quantities- and like it or not, we live in a global economy which means the Chinese have as much to lose as we do and no amount of fear mongering will change that. I guar on tee that "trading" with is much better than warring with.

So what does building artificial islands in the South China Sea have to do with economics? How about punishing the NBA for a executive speaking their minds? Or, ensuring Taiwan, the nation that best dealt with the Wuhan Virus, was not allowed in the W.H.O? What about massive military expansion, investment, complete control of citizens in some parts of China via technology, concentration camps in China? You are certainly a member of the naive I speak of.

I recall asking a former FBI agent on twitter who is generally very outspoken and I confronted them on China. Crickets. It's honestly mind boggling to me, if not shocking. I'm a confident guy, maybe I sometimes even have an ego, I hope it never comes off that way but I can see when in text, it might seem that way. Even if I acknowledge that, I cannot accept that apparently intelligent, impressive, top notch former agents can't see what is going on. Just as those who advised Obama NOT to arm Ukraine (ideologically blind Mi6?) out of fear of what Putin would do. Astounding.

It's a new world. Find and recruit the best and brightest. Those with a world of experience, especially overcoming difficult circumstances and stop relying on Ivey League educated book smart silver spoon fed recruits who have lived a narrow life. I've always admired the CIA and FBI, and really ANY top notch freedom fighting intelligence agencies and agents. It's not about power, it's about competence and defending liberty. China is the global threat of our generation. It must be all hands on deck, including ideological buy in by the powerful and poor alike.

If some believe that more centralized power just means for them, a la, the Canadian model, you should take a look at how poor we are and how many of our citizens leave. Our country has been declining fast, it's what centralized systems do, even as the RCMP and their surrogates get hard on for the immense powers they exploit. As a "free" nation, we have little liberty. The lack of innovation and mass exodus of our best naturally followed.

You have to win the economic war to win the "values" war. The threat posed by the Communist Party of China might be the most menacing we've seen in the history of the world as they can eventually rule the world with an iron fist because of the technology in modern times.

I want American Exceptionalism and yes, even an empire. Why? We've all seen the world the last 75 years with American dominance ensuring relative peace, prosperity and opportunity for all. Some don't care about these "old, tired" ideas, they want ultimate power at any cost.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You know Sen Feinstein's office has a hotline to Xi and the CCP

You mean her Chinese spy limo driver hands her the phone?

 

[Mac-7]

You mean her Chinese spy limo driver hands her the phone?

That and her husband‘s own business deals with red china

 

[Dragonlady]

Oh bullshit- stop with the fucking fear mongering.

The fear mongering should have been done 20 years ago by more than a handful. Now fear mongering isn't the word because China is well entrenched, it's either "stand up for America or be toppled and absorbed".

It's clear that the communist party have far more global power and influence than had been acknowledged publicly. They intend to have much more. Elitists living in their bubbles don't care, nor weak leaders who want centralized power for their own ambitions.

Donald Trump has done everything possible to allow China a free hand in Asia and throughout the world. No one has done more for China and Russia than Donald Trump.

Since Trump started his trade war with China, the US trade deficit with China has increased by $200 billion and American farm bankruptcies have reached record highs two years running. Since Trump pulled out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, China took over as the lead country in the deal, and the Chinese are busy building deep sea ports along the Pacific Coast of Mexico and South America to handle the increased trade, as well as a the "Silk Road" through Africa to Europe.

Trump talks tough about both China and Russia, but actions speak louder than words, and his actions, in regards to NATO, in regards to trade, in regards to the Middle East, have all empowered and embolded both China and Russia, and dimished the power and standing of the USA throughout the world.

Angela Merkel is now the leader of the free world. Donald Trump presides over a diseased, and economically collapsing nation. China is indeed ascendant and that's not a good thing. Furthermore, it is Trump that has enabled that ascendancy.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The fear mongering should have been done 20 years ago by more than a handful. Now fear mongering isn't the word because China is well entrenched, it's either "stand up for America or be toppled and absorbed".

It's clear that the communist party have far more global power and influence than had been acknowledged publicly. They intend to have much more. Elitists living in their bubbles don't care, nor weak leaders who want centralized power for their own ambitions.

The fear mongering about communist begn in earnest in the 50's even though Stalin and Ike were buddy's and the USSR didn't want a war with the US- see the Dulles brothers for illustration, then the South American debacles and Vietnam- and Cuba turned to the USSR because the US got greedy and demanding

The Chinse use capitalism as their economic model- they don't like the fiat currency of the fed reserve being the currency of choice or the crony capitalism as the enFORCEr so they buy gold, in large quantities- and like it or not, we live in a global economy which means the Chinese have as much to lose as we do and no amount of fear mongering will change that. I guar on tee that "trading" with is much better than warring with.

So what does building artificial islands in the South China Sea have to do with economics? How about punishing the NBA for a executive speaking their minds? Or, ensuring Taiwan, the nation that best dealt with the Wuhan Virus, was not allowed in the W.H.O? What about massive military expansion, investment, complete control of citizens in some parts of China via technology, concentration camps in China? You are certainly a member of the naive I speak of.

I recall asking a former FBI agent on twitter who is generally very outspoken and I confronted them on China. Crickets. It's honestly mind boggling to me, if not shocking. I'm a confident guy, maybe I sometimes even have an ego, I hope it never comes off that way but I can see when in text, it might seem that way. Even if I acknowledge that, I cannot accept that apparently intelligent, impressive, top notch former agents can't see what is going on. Just as those who advised Obama NOT to arm Ukraine (ideologically blind Mi6?) out of fear of what Putin would do. Astounding.

It's a new world. Find and recruit the best and brightest. Those with a world of experience, especially overcoming difficult circumstances and stop relying on Ivey League educated book smart silver spoon fed recruits who have lived a narrow life. I've always admired the CIA and FBI, and really ANY top notch freedom fighting intelligence agencies and agents. It's not about power, it's about competence and defending liberty. China is the global threat of our generation. It must be all hands on deck, including ideological buy in by the powerful and poor alike.

If some believe that more centralized power just means for them, a la, the Canadian model, you should take a look at how poor we are and how many of our citizens leave. Our country has been declining fast, it's what centralized systems do, even as the RCMP and their surrogates get hard on for the immense powers they exploit. As a "free" nation, we have little liberty. The lack of innovation and mass exodus of our best naturally followed.

You have to win the economic war to win the "values" war. The threat posed by China might be the most menacing we've seen in the history of the world as they can eventually rule the world with an iron fist because of the technology in modern times.

I want American Exceptionalism and yes, even an empire. Why? We've all seen the world the last 75 years with American dominance ensuring relative peace, prosperity and opportunity for all. Some don't care about these "old, tired" ideas, they want ultimate power at any cost.

China is spending money to have their US assets spread disinformation about what a wonderful, helpful country it is

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh bullshit- stop with the fucking fear mongering.

The fear mongering should have been done 20 years ago by more than a handful. Now fear mongering isn't the word because China is well entrenched, it's either "stand up for America or be toppled and absorbed".

It's clear that the communist party have far more global power and influence than had been acknowledged publicly. They intend to have much more. Elitists living in their bubbles don't care, nor weak leaders who want centralized power for their own ambitions.

Donald Trump has done everything possible to allow China a free hand in Asia and throughout the world. No one has done more for China and Russia than Donald Trump.

Since Trump started his trade war with China, the US trade deficit with China has increased by $200 billion and American farm bankruptcies have reached record highs two years running. Since Trump pulled out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, China took over as the lead country in the deal, and the Chinese are busy building deep sea ports along the Pacific Coast of Mexico and South America to handle the increased trade, as well as a the "Silk Road" through Africa to Europe.

Trump talks tough about both China and Russia, but actions speak louder than words, and his actions, in regards to NATO, in regards to trade, in regards to the Middle East, have all empowered and embolded both China and Russia, and dimished the power and standing of the USA throughout the world.

Angela Merkel is now the leader of the free world. Donald Trump presides over a diseased, and economically collapsing nation. China is indeed ascendant and that's not a good thing. Furthermore, it is Trump that has enabled that ascendancy.

Seriously out of your fucking mind.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Oh bullshit- stop with the fucking fear mongering.

The fear mongering should have been done 20 years ago by more than a handful. Now fear mongering isn't the word because China is well entrenched, it's either "stand up for America or be toppled and absorbed".

It's clear that the communist party have far more global power and influence than had been acknowledged publicly. They intend to have much more. Elitists living in their bubbles don't care, nor weak leaders who want centralized power for their own ambitions.

Donald Trump has done everything possible to allow China a free hand in Asia and throughout the world. No one has done more for China and Russia than Donald Trump.

Since Trump started his trade war with China, the US trade deficit with China has increased by $200 billion and American farm bankruptcies have reached record highs two years running. Since Trump pulled out of the Trans Pacific Partnership, China took over as the lead country in the deal, and the Chinese are busy building deep sea ports along the Pacific Coast of Mexico and South America to handle the increased trade, as well as a the "Silk Road" through Africa to Europe.

Trump talks tough about both China and Russia, but actions speak louder than words, and his actions, in regards to NATO, in regards to trade, in regards to the Middle East, have all empowered and embolded both China and Russia, and dimished the power and standing of the USA throughout the world.

Angela Merkel is now the leader of the free world. Donald Trump presides over a diseased, and economically collapsing nation. China is indeed ascendant and that's not a good thing. Furthermore, it is Trump that has enabled that ascendancy.

I can't believe you believe any of this.

I've never personally trusted you, but that's besides the point. That's a Canadian to a Canadian issue, and my own bias is based on the experiences I've had with the immoral, dishonest power in my country.

If I am being objective, I'd say you have either taken the hook, line and sinker, or, you have some self interest in promoting this. I still can't think you actually believe it. Not at this point in Chinas rise.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

This is really a childish OP which misunderstands on many levels the nature of the Chinese challenge to U.S. world dominance. The measures that ultimately led to the collapse of a sprawling multinational Soviet Union with its East European client states, all linked together in an autarkic and rickety “planned economy” that was essentially independent of world capitalist economy, will not work against the far more compact, unified, culturally unique, Chinese nation.

China’s one-party authoritarian system certainly is unappealing to Westerners, but it has deep roots in Chinese culture. The CCP incarnation of this authoritarian tradition has shown quite a lot of flexibility, transforming itself dramatically several times, lifting the country out of extreme poverty, and it has created a modern state capitalism that can compete internationally, in which hard-working and studious ordinary Chinese still have considerable confidence.

Of course nobody can predict the future. China can certainly be pushed to lash out if it feels threatened (and it already does feel threatened) but it is not seeking “world domination.” Its history and culture are not that of a country always seeking “enemies abroad” to slay. Its strong nationalist impulses today mainly aim at reclaiming a high standard of living for its people, and a certain prestige its people and political class believe has been denied to it for over a century, after it lost its historically normal place in the world.

The OP view simply projects typical American aggressive instincts, and also our experiences with Japanese imperialism and German fascism, onto China. The Soviet bureaucracy after Stalin’s death was also, like China, essentially conservative. But unlike China, it was already overextended and not integrated into the world capitalist trading network. China’s lack of internal democracy and its own corruption will almost certainly not lead it to collapse like a house of cards. Chinese nationalism and its terrible experience with anarchy in the past will not permit this.

Of course there is the possibility of a political revolution or reforms that will free up cultural norms and win more democratic rights — this is something the West desires and Chinese people may bring about under the right conditions. But this is least likely to occur under extreme foreign pressure pushed unthinkingly by an aggressive & declining U.S. “empire,” or by any conceivable change in CIA or FBI policy. A growing perception within China that the U.S. is waging an unjustified Cold War against it, or that we are using basically unfair economic measures against it, can certainly create extreme nationalist pressures within that society, and that is something deeply undesirable. Unfortunately, that is where I see the situation moving at present.

Changing U.S. policy toward China, by the way, is not at all rooted in any special Republican or Democratic political view, and even less in some imagined strong and uniquely held populist policy of Donald Trump. It is the product of declining yet still militarily powerful U.S. imperialism..

I will not bother to respond at length to the ridiculous conspiracy theories in the OP, for example about “Chinese Covid-19,” or the fact that the OP sees the issue as Democratic vs. Republican or “patriotic American values” vs. “glaobal capitalist” ones. The OP is trying to do to Democrats over China exactly what the Democrats did to Trump over Russia. The fact that U.S. popular sentiment, and its two parties, are so absurdly divided and taking sides in such childish ways, shows that the U.S. (let alone its unhappy “allies”) seems prepared to fly apart under the pressure of still relatively benign Chinese economic competition. Of course internal centripetal pressures are growing within the West as a whole, which Russia in particular is competently exploiting. The inability of the U.S. to decide who it should target for destruction first — the Russian Federation or the People’s Republic of China — is almost risible. If anything, it will lead China and Russia into alliance, and others will follow.

There is a great need for competent, non-hysterical, highly focused and clearly explained measures that remind China’s leaders and people that they pay a price for violating international norms in either trade or human rights. But that lesson can not be taught by an American imperialist colossus, divided internally, itself increasingly recognized as bullying the world. The Chinese people once greatly admired the United States. Today — and not primarily because of “communist propaganda” — the Chinese people see less and less to admire in the West. They are like the Russians in this respect, but Chinese leaders have far more successfully worked to apply capitalist principles to improve the Chinese people’s lot. They have done so, by the way, without invading the Middle East or sending a navy into the Gulf of Mexico. Our own political leaders, including Trump ... well, let’s just say NONE of them have shown nearly so much maturity or success.

 

[shockedcanadian]

This is really a childish OP which misunderstands on many levels the nature of the Chinese challenge to U.S. world dominance. The measures that ultimately led to the collapse of a sprawling multinational Soviet Union with its East European client states, all linked together in an autarkic and rickety “planned economy” that was essentially independent of world capitalist economy, will not work against the far more compact, unified, culturally unique, Chinese nation.

China’s one-party authoritarian system certainly is unappealing to Westerners, but it has deep roots in Chinese culture. The CCP incarnation of this authoritarian tradition has shown quite a lot of flexibility, transforming itself dramatically several times, lifting the country out of extreme poverty, and it has created a modern state capitalism that can compete internationally, in which hard-working and studious ordinary Chinese still have considerable confidence.

Of course nobody can predict the future. China can certainly be pushed to lash out if it feels threatened (and it already does feel threatened) but it is not seeking “world domination.” Its history and culture are not that of a country always seeking “enemies abroad” to slay. Its strong nationalist impulses today mainly aim at reclaiming a high standard of living for its people, and a certain prestige its people and political class believe has been denied to it for over a century, after it lost its historically normal place in the world.

The OP view simply projects typical American aggressive instincts, and also our experiences with Japanese imperialism and German fascism, onto China. The Soviet bureaucracy after Stalin’s death was also, like China, essentially conservative. But unlike China, it was already overextended and not integrated into the world capitalist trading network. China’s lack of internal democracy and its own corruption will almost certainly not lead it to collapse like a house of cards. Chinese nationalism and its terrible experience with anarchy in the past will not permit this.

Of course there is the possibility of a political revolution or reforms that will free up cultural norms and win more democratic rights — this is something the West desires and Chinese people may bring about under the right conditions. But this is least likely to occur under extreme foreign pressure pushed unthinkingly by an aggressive & declining U.S. “empire,” or by any conceivable change in CIA or FBI policy. A growing perception within China that the U.S. is waging an unjustified Cold War against it, or that we are using basically unfair economic measures against it, can certainly create extreme nationalist pressures within that society, and that is something deeply undesirable. Unfortunately, that is where I see the situation moving at present.

Changing U.S. policy toward China, by the way, is not at all rooted in any special Republican or Democratic political view, and even less in some imagined strong and uniquely held populist policy of Donald Trump. It is the product of declining yet still militarily powerful U.S. imperialism..

I will not bother to respond at length to the ridiculous conspiracy theories in the OP, for example about “Chinese Covid-19,” or the fact that the OP sees the issue as Democratic vs. Republican or “patriotic American values” vs. “glaobal capitalist” ones. The OP is trying to do to Democrats over China exactly what the Democrats did to Trump over Russia. The fact that U.S. popular sentiment, and its two parties, are so absurdly divided and taking sides in such childish ways, shows that the U.S. (let alone its unhappy “allies”) seems prepared to fly apart under the pressure of still relatively benign Chinese economic competition. Of course internal centripetal pressures are growing within the West as a whole, which Russia in particular is competently exploiting. The inability of the U.S. to decide who it should target for destruction first — the Russian Federation or the People’s Republic of China — is almost risible. If anything, it will lead China and Russia into alliance, and others will follow.

There is a great need for competent, non-hysterical, highly focused and clearly explained measures that remind China’s leaders and people that they pay a price for violating international norms in either trade or human rights. But that lesson can not be taught by an American imperialist colossus, divided internally, itself increasingly recognized as bullying the world. The Chinese people once greatly admired the United States. Today — and not primarily because of “communist propaganda” — the Chinese people see less and less to admire in the West. They are like the Russians in this respect, but Chinese leaders have far more successfully worked to apply capitalist principles to improve the Chinese people’s lot. They have done so, by the way, without invading the Middle East or sending a navy into the Gulf of Mexico. Our own political leaders, including Trump ... well, let’s just say NONE of them have shown nearly so much maturity or success.

Right. Maybe you have graduated a re-education camp like those thrown in to them against their will (some of the scientists who disappeared maybe?), but I won't buy it. Or their expansion into the South China Sea, spying, stealing and pillaging other nations and businesses.

If only we could all admire the peaceful, loving Communist party of China, we would all have bestowed everlasting enlightenment.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Or their expansion into the South China Sea, spying, stealing and pillaging other nations and businesses.

Respectfully ...

Hasn’t the U.S. in the past (and up to today) “expanded” into the Gulf of Mexico, the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf, the Gulf of Tonkin, the South China Sea, indeed all the oceans of the world ... often ... “stealing and pillaging other nations and businesses”?

Your view of me I don’t really care about. But your view of geopolitics seems to me to be narrow and rather hypocritical. A very naive view, in reality. Regardless of the defects of China’s ruling regime, its very continued existence largely depends on its ability to protect the economic interests of 1.4 billion hard working Chinese ... who aspire to better lives. Has it ever occurred to you that China’s leaders might legitimately fear the U.S. will cut off China’s own crucial trade routes, threatening oil imports from the Persian Gulf for example?

China would be foolish to assume the U.S. would never use its navy to leverage power in this way. The U.S. has already sanctioned Chinese companies from doing business with Iran, kept them out of Iraq, and could easily try to sanction trade with China in other ways for any of a number of bogus reasons. By controlling the oil and gas under the South China Sea and by itself guaranteeing genuine free trade through those crucial waters, China is both protecting its economic future and making the U.S. less likely to adopt aggressive measures in the future.

This is simple real politics & “great power diplomacy,” which China is only now learning how to play. Of course to play great power politics in Asia successfully China must also protect the fundamental interests of nearby neutral powers like Vietnam, while maintaining good trading relations with South Korea and Japan, preventing them from forming any all-out anti-China alliance with the U.S.A. Such an all-out anti-China Cold War (and trade war) is not in anybody’s economic or political interests. The U.S. must respect the economic interests of China’s 1.4 billion people, and protect peace in Asia by recognizing China’s leading role in its own neighborhood.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Or their expansion into the South China Sea, spying, stealing and pillaging other nations and businesses.

Respectfully ...

Hasn’t the U.S. in the past (and up to today) “expanded” into the Gulf of Mexico, the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf, the Gulf of Tonkin, the South China Sea, indeed all the oceans of the world ... often ... “stealing and pillaging other nations and businesses”?

Your view of me I don’t really care about. But your view of geopolitics seems to me to be narrow and rather hypocritical. A very naive view, in reality. Regardless of the defects of China’s ruling regime, its very continued existence largely depends on its ability to protect the economic interests of 1.4 billion hard working Chinese ... who aspire to better lives. Has it ever occurred to you that China’s leaders might legitimately fear the U.S. will cut off China’s own crucial trade routes, threatening oil imports from the Persian Gulf for example?

China would be foolish to assume the U.S. would never use its navy to leverage power in this way. The U.S. has already sanctioned Chinese companies from doing business with Iran, kept them out of Iraq, and could easily try to sanction trade with China in other ways for any of a number of bogus reasons. By controlling the oil and gas under the South China Sea and by itself guaranteeing genuine free trade through those crucial waters, China is both protecting its economic future and making the U.S. less likely to adopt aggressive measures in the future.

This is simple real politics & “great power diplomacy,” which China is only now learning how to play. Of course to play great power politics in Asia successfully China must also protect the fundamental interests of nearby neutral powers like Vietnam, while maintaining good trading relations with South Korea and Japan, preventing them from forming any all-out anti-China alliance with the U.S.A. Such an all-out anti-China Cold War (and trade war) is not in anybody’s economic or political interests. The U.S. must respect the economic interests of China’s 1.4 billion people, and protect peace in Asia by recognizing China’s leading role in its own neighborhood.

Over 30 years of propping up China, allowing them into the W.T.O, making their nation wealthy by shipping U.S jobs there and they think it is American who would harm them?

The communist party are like all dictatorships without competition, they push their weight around and treat other nations as they treat their own citizens. They are weak and insecure, but not a caring bunch.

 

[Gdjjr]

Over 30 years of propping up China, allowing them into the W.T.O, making their nation wealthy by shipping U.S jobs there and they think it is American who would harm them?

The communist party are like all dictatorships without competition, they push their weight around and treat other nations as they treat their own citizens. They are weak and insecure, but not a caring bunch.

The US has been propping up the ME since the 70's- FYI, it ain't new. The "reason"? US Federal Reserve Note pricing and selling of oil, called the Petrodollar.
Also, as you point out, the communist Party are like all dictatorships pushing their weight around and treat other nations as their own citizens- look at the US for that model. And also about not caring- as for "allowing" into WTO, what the fuck is WTO? And who cares"? Do the words "free trade" mean anything to you, or are they just a bumper sticker slogan? Free is unencumbered. What authority does the US have to tell anyone who they can or cannot trade with? I don't recall seeing that in the "granted authority" in the constitution. The WTO is a self aggrandizing bunch of wealth confiscators with NO authority anywhere.
No US jobs have been shipped anywhere. That's a misnomer- expanding a base is not shipping jobs off- like it or not, we live in a global economy- "shipping jobs" (expanding production) elsewhere has raised the standard of living world wide, and, allowed low cost products to help keep US citizens in "toys" which seems to be the desire of US citizens. Desire and fulfilling desire is what makes an economy.

Bush jr made it clear when he was POTUS- we are moving into a Service oriented economy and away from a Manufacturing base economy- note the word base.

There are many noodles in our bowl of spaghetti - many. A saying comes to mind that I used to start a thread- "oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive"- the US has been deceiving since its inception. The "concept" was great and altruistic, but it didn't take long until the concept was forgotten and even denied existence and demonizing others rates at the top of the list with hypocritical (fear mongering) bullshit as the foundation.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Over 30 years of propping up China, allowing them into the W.T.O, making their nation wealthy by shipping U.S jobs there and they think it is American who would harm them?

The communist party are like all dictatorships without competition, they push their weight around and treat other nations as they treat their own citizens. They are weak and insecure, but not a caring bunch.

The US has been propping up the ME since the 70's- FYI, it ain't new. The "reason"? US Federal Reserve Note pricing and selling of oil, called the Petrodollar.
Also, as you point out, the communist Party are like all dictatorships pushing their weight around and treat other nations as their own citizens- look at the US for that model. And also about not caring- as for "allowing" into WTO, what the fuck is WTO? And who cares"? Do the words "free trade" mean anything to you, or are they just a bumper sticker slogan? Free is unencumbered. What authority does the US have to tell anyone who they can or cannot trade with? I don't recall seeing that in the "granted authority" in the constitution. The WTO is a self aggrandizing bunch of wealth confiscators with NO authority anywhere.
No US jobs have been shipped anywhere. That's a misnomer- expanding a base is not shipping jobs off- like it or not, we live in a global economy- "shipping jobs" (expanding production) elsewhere has raised the standard of living world wide, and, allowed low cost products to help keep US citizens in "toys" which seems to be the desire of US citizens. Desire and fulfilling desire is what makes an economy.

Bush jr made it clear when he was POTUS- we are moving into a Service oriented economy and away from a Manufacturing base economy- note the word base.

There are many noodles in our bowl of spaghetti - many. A saying comes to mind that I used to start a thread- "oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive"- the US has been deceiving since its inception. The "concept" was great and altruistic, but it didn't take long until the concept was forgotten and even denied existence and demonizing others rates at the top of the list with hypocritical (fear mongering) bullshit as the foundation.

Trade must also be based on some basic standard values. If a business down the street uses child labour or works dogs to death in order to make a product you buy, do you still buy it if you find out these facts?

We as a society, MUST have a standard, before we import THEIR standards (as is happening in some circles already). When I say China was "allowed" it was because the world didn't understand to what extent China abused their own, or, they assumed they would change, evolve and adapt into being more capitalist system and thus, democracy and human rights would follow.

We wrongly believed they would become more like HK, instead they essentially swallowed HK back into their system, against their own agreement. That communists for you.

There has been little movement or social progress, even as economically the West has given them so much.

 

[Gdjjr]

We as a society, MUST have a standard, before we import THEIR standards (as is happening in some circles already). When I say China was "allowed" it was because the world didn't understand to what extent China abused their own, or, they assumed they would change, evolve and adapt into being more capitalist system and thus, democracy and human rights would follow.

We wrongly believed they would become more like HK, instead they essentially swallowed HK back into their system, against their own agreement. That communists for you.

There has been little movement or social progress, even as economically the West has given them so much.

Society is NOT gov't approved. Period. Standards of "what if", by gov't's, is what makes citizens criminals. Fear mongering is fear mongering it doesn't matter who does it. Fear mongering is demoguing to get sympathy or better yet, money, on the side of, well, money, using citizens as tools. Period.

Governments have disagreements and use fear as propaganda to get citizens on its side- citizens don't war with citizens unless/until a gov't steps in to "negotiate"- citizens just want to trade with who they want to which should be decided by the traders, not governments- to trade there must be mutual consent/benefit- NOT authoritarian bullshit of do it may way or we'll attack you to prove how self righteous we are.
The US leads the way (the world) in that category. Since this is a monkey see monkey do world the head (popular) monkeys are emulated- the head monkeys are the US gov't bureaucrats with NO skin in the game other than their port folio of stocks- EXAMPLE is THE best negotiator. THE best teacher. THE best tactic. THE best leader. Crying and whining about unfair after the fact is NOT leadership and is a piss poor example.
Especially when, the example (tactic) is used against you- it broadcasts the hypocrisy of a "policy" made by those not granted the authority to dictate who can trade what where.

True leadership is for the benefit of the follower, not the enrichment of the leader.


Yet, who gets rich playing with citizens lives by restricting their livelihoods? Dictators. That's who. By some accounts that would be referred to as "communist"- approving "standards" through coercion and FORCE.
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[Tom Paine 1949]

There has been little movement or social progress, even as economically the West has given them so much.

So much nonsense here. The OP even repeats old “Yellow Peril” anti-Chinese stereotypes, talking about factories exploiting “dogs” & “children.” But what U.S. imperialism fears is that China is no longer a desperately backward & poor third world country like Bangladesh!

Chinese style capitalism in combination with strong state public education policies and huge infrastructure investments have allowed the country to make tremendous strides toward social progress, especially in eliminating extreme poverty. Child factory labour has been all but eliminated in cities, and it is strictly against the law everywhere. The best studies show that even ten years ago it was increasingly a rural phenomenon, existing also in small family shops:

“We present the first systematic study on child labor in China. Child labor is not a negligible social phenomenon in China; about 7.74% of children aged from 10 to 15 were working in 2010.... About 90% of child laborers were still in school and combined economic activity with schooling.” — http://ftp.iza.org/dp9976.pdf

But Chinese government hostility to independent unions has been a major problem. As the economy has taken off, there has nevertheless been much labor agitation and job turnover, and wages have rapidly improved, so much so that the country’s capitalists now follow the U.S. example and move many labor intensive factories overseas.

China has tremendous problems, social problems and ecological problems, present economic problems and legacy problems inherited from its past. Not least of the latter is the CCP version of political authoritarianism, with its institutional hostility to uncontrolled intellectual freedom and rights of free speech and conscience we take for granted. Without understanding Chinese history and its present accurately, without understanding our own society’s hypocrisies and obsessions, it is impossible to find a way forward in our relationship.

I also disagree with Gdjjr ’s view disdaining the importance of international organization, common “standards,” the WTO, etc. In the real world, where states and giant multinational corporations and economic blocs and imperialist pressures exist, trade standards and monetary regulation and treaties of all sorts really are ever more important. Only knowledgeable and serious statesmen can properly work out agreements needed to facilitate trade, encourage maximum “freedom,” and maintain peace.

 

[Gdjjr]

I also disagree with @Gdjjr ’s view disdaining the importance of international organization, common “standards,” the WTO, etc. In the real world, where states and giant multinational corporations and economic blocs and imperialist pressures exist, trade standards and monetary regulation and treaties of all sorts really are ever more important. Only knowledgeable and serious statesmen can properly work out agreements needed to facilitate trade, encourage maximum “freedom,” and maintain peace.

You can disagree all you want. It will change nothing I said.
BTW, the US is famous for "breaking treaties"- ask anyone who abides by one- except Israel and Saudi Arabia. Wonder why that is?

The only "serious" players in trade are the ones trading. NO "statesman" or political hack has the legal authority or moral authority to presume he can decide what's good for one but not another. The "agreements" are to be between the traders, NOT "statesmen". Period. That is FREE trade at its finest. Fair is to be decided by the traders, not a fucking dictator, no matter where he resides.

Congress was supposed to regulate trade and commerce- not dictate it's desires on the unwilling, no matter where the unwilling resides. They were to "help ensure" one district didn't have a "legal advantage" over another. Period. The constitution, nor its History, says a damn thing about a statesman dictator being free to "treat" (read dictate) private transactions. Period. And your requirement of statesman forgot to mention *honorable* which there hasn't been in the District of Criminals since Davy Crockett left.

As for WTO, like gov't, it is toothless w/o FORCE on it's side- and like gov't it can suggest guidelines all day long- that gives it NO authority, morally, or legally. If something, anything, has to be forced it's not really that good. Is it? That means there was no mutual agreement. So, who wins? Answer: the enFORCEr. Period. The enforcers do NOT have citizens best interest at heart. Period. It has its own best interest at heart and utilizes fear propaganda, effective apparently, to coerce citizens into being stupid, no matter where the force resides or the citizen. Being FORCEd to submit to the will of another is where ALL conflict begins. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. And behind those FORCEs is a power greedy gov't statesman pretending he has an esoteric knowledge that grants him a presumed authority to make a decision in which he hasn't the slightest clue about.