The Euthyphro dilemma

[Hamiltonian]

Yes, you're right, of course. I promise to stop reading pulp fiction like this piece of patently anti-UmeriKKKan crap

This is exactly what I was talking about. You just criticized America for supporting existing regimes, and then try to criticize America for any interventionist policies to change regimes.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Back to the original topic of the thread...

<blockquote>&#8220;Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?&#8221;</blockquote>

This argument is flawed as it is rooted in the premise that the "morally good" lies solely within the purview of religion. Morality does not depend on religion.

 

[Care4all]

Back to the original topic of the thread...

<blockquote>“Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”</blockquote>

This argument is flawed as it is rooted in the premise that the "morally good" lies solely within the purview of religion. Morality does not depend on religion.

somehow, humans are different, on the whole. We know right from wrong inherently.... with or without religion, with or without knowing the 10 commandments....

almost like we are programed to just ''know''.... for the most part, imo.

care

 

[Bullypulpit]

somehow, humans are different, on the whole. We know right from wrong inherently.... with or without religion, with or without knowing the 10 commandments....

almost like we are programed to just ''know''.... for the most part, imo.

care

Upon what do you base this assumption?..That we "just know" right from wrong. Granted, our cognitive faculties give us the ability to look ahead to the consequences of our actions, but to say those same faculties permit us to "just know" right from wrong is, I think, mistaken.

Given the ground-breaking, albeit flawed, work of Lawrence Kohlberg in his research on moral development, it is clear that morality is developed in stages which correspond closely to our cognitive development, and is in no sense innate, unless one is discussing the most basic physical responses to pain and pleasure.

 

[Gunny]

Back to the original topic of the thread...

<blockquote>“Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”</blockquote>

This argument is flawed as it is rooted in the premise that the "morally good" lies solely within the purview of religion. Morality does not depend on religion.

Morality DOES depend on society, and almost ALL societies originated from religion.

 

[Care4all]

Upon what do you base this assumption?..That we "just know" right from wrong. Granted, our cognitive faculties give us the ability to look ahead to the consequences of our actions, but to say those same faculties permit us to "just know" right from wrong is, I think, mistaken.

Given the ground-breaking, albeit flawed, work of Lawrence Kohlberg in his research on moral development, it is clear that morality is developed in stages which correspond closely to our cognitive development, and is in no sense innate, unless one is discussing the most basic physical responses to pain and pleasure.

I don't know what I am talking about honestly...

I have never studied this or even thought about it until this thread.

When thinking about it, I can't imagine not just knowing that killing another human being is just plain wrong... even if my mom and dad did not tell me such, even if there were no laws of the land saying such, I can't imagine, even if a loner in an orphanage or a reclusive type person my whole life, that I would not "just know" that killing another human being is wrong.

There are no major signs of cavemen killing eachother off for no reason at all that I know of or early man killing off eachother so even they knew not to do it unless perhaps necessary....but granted, I could be way behind the times on something like this....?

And I can't get in to the simple things like sex before marriage being ok/or not, or abortion being ok/or not, or homosexuality ok/or not type morality things, but the basic right or wrong things like killing, and lying, and stealing, and cheating etc. just seem to be encoded in to our make up....it is one of the things that makes us superior to other animals in my opinion....that and the writen Word....and all that goes with it like reasoning....and forseeing...

Even this girl who got lost in China I think, who lived in the wild for over 15 years I believe the article had said...and wanted to go back to the wild, they think she missed the stage in her life where she could learn to speak at any level higher than an infants level and alot of behavioral problems with her...well...anyway, she was not taught "not to kill" by anyone other than the wild animals that she lived with if that is possible...but after she was found and brought in to society, though not really fitting in she never tried to kill anyone....

Just simple crud like this that seems to fit with us "just knowing" or even programed in our Dna or makeup somehow, for survival...but it seems like it is more than this...TO ME....hahahahaha....

And like I said, I ain't a scientist, I just know what I feel or what I think through my own experiences I guess? And I can't imagine, for the life of me, not just knowing, certain root things, are wrong.

Care

 

[Chips Rafferty]

This is exactly what I was talking about. You just criticized America for supporting existing regimes, and then try to criticize America for any interventionist policies to change regimes.

That&#8217;s right. I criticise America for thinking it has a God-given right to do either. That is, to install or topple foreign governments as it pleases.

You can sum up my posts/philosophy thus;

J'ACCUSE America of being a sly, slavering, WASP wolf hiding behind the dry-retch inducing &#8220;decency&#8221; of &#8220;The Lamb&#8221; to justify its fleecing of foreigners.

J'ACCUSE the entire succession of capitalist controlled American governments &#8211; since the universally despised Puritan pariahs slimed ashore - of using the Bible to inculcate a feeling of groundless superiority, known as American Exceptionalism, into its citizens to instil in them a false sense of divine entitlement and consequently be more amenable to answer the regime&#8217;s regular, inexorably religious skewed calls to arms.

J'ACCUSE MOST Americans of opportunely ignoring these self-evident facts, just as &#8220;good&#8221; Germans ignored the self-evident evils of Nazism, i.e. in order to line their pockets at the expense of people they were willingly programmed to perceive as Untermenschen.

Finally, J'ACCUSE the entire non-American world of gutlessly allowing America to get away with all of the above for 65 years.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Morality DOES depend on society, and almost ALL societies originated from religion.

Ya know what astounds me about Christians? How these self-deluded dingbats imagine their imaginary God doesn’t know his conditionally faithful followers are so only because of His fascistic diktats, not from their true feelings.

I say conditionally, because how many of these gut-wrenchingly unctuous maggots do you think would "love" Him if they thought there was no Heaving and Hell. If they just had His abominable Bible persona to go on?

I'll tell you. None but the utterly insane. Bible God would be as popular as a pork chop in a synagogue.

I pay more respect to authoritarian nutcases who claim to love Hitler than the similarily mentally disturbed morons who mendaciously claim to love the vilest monster imaginable. I can’t think of ONE redeeming quality the Old **** Killer has, whereas at least Adolf loved dogs!

Yet again this PROVES I am far more worshipful than God, and infinitely more decent than Him and his disgustingly ingratiating, scabby-gutted goon squad. I love my kids, and my dogs, unconditionally.

When my puppies piss on the carpet, or my daughter prostitutes herself, I don’t even scold them, let alone drown them and condemn them to Hell forever for falling short of my insane expectations.

Oh, to be like Me!
Oh, to be like Me, Blessed Redeemer, pure as I art!

 

[Bullypulpit]

Morality DOES depend on society, and almost ALL societies originated from religion.

Morality does indeed depend on a social order, but to assert that societies develop as a result of religion may be mistaken on your part. I will do some research and get back to you on that one.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I don't know what I am talking about honestly...

I have never studied this or even thought about it until this thread.

When thinking about it, I can't imagine not just knowing that killing another human being is just plain wrong... even if my mom and dad did not tell me such, even if there were no laws of the land saying such, I can't imagine, even if a loner in an orphanage or a reclusive type person my whole life, that I would not "just know" that killing another human being is wrong.

There are no major signs of cavemen killing eachother off for no reason at all that I know of or early man killing off eachother so even they knew not to do it unless perhaps necessary....but granted, I could be way behind the times on something like this....?

And I can't get in to the simple things like sex before marriage being ok/or not, or abortion being ok/or not, or homosexuality ok/or not type morality things, but the basic right or wrong things like killing, and lying, and stealing, and cheating etc. just seem to be encoded in to our make up....it is one of the things that makes us superior to other animals in my opinion....that and the writen Word....and all that goes with it like reasoning....and forseeing...

Even this girl who got lost in China I think, who lived in the wild for over 15 years I believe the article had said...and wanted to go back to the wild, they think she missed the stage in her life where she could learn to speak at any level higher than an infants level and alot of behavioral problems with her...well...anyway, she was not taught "not to kill" by anyone other than the wild animals that she lived with if that is possible...but after she was found and brought in to society, though not really fitting in she never tried to kill anyone....

Just simple crud like this that seems to fit with us "just knowing" or even programed in our Dna or makeup somehow, for survival...but it seems like it is more than this...TO ME....hahahahaha....

And like I said, I ain't a scientist, I just know what I feel or what I think through my own experiences I guess? And I can't imagine, for the life of me, not just knowing, certain root things, are wrong.

Care

And that's what I like about threads such as this. They give us ALL some new insights and ideas.

As for violence in primitive societies, it has been documented, particularly in some of the prehistoric bodies recovered from peat bogs, glaciers and the like. Many died as a result of human violence.

As for the issues you mention, there is nothing simple about them unless we choose to simplify them. If it leads to the objective, demonstrable harm of oneself, others or both it is not to be done. But that's my view on the matter, and I may be wrong.

 

[Gunny]

Ya know what astounds me about Christians? How these self-deluded dingbats imagine their imaginary God doesn’t know his conditionally faithful followers are so only because of His fascistic diktats, not from their true feelings.

I say conditionally, because how many of these gut-wrenchingly unctuous maggots do you think would "love" Him if they thought there was no Heaving and Hell. If they just had His abominable Bible persona to go on?

I'll tell you. None but the utterly insane. Bible God would be as popular as a pork chop in a synagogue.

I pay more respect to authoritarian nutcases who claim to love Hitler than the similarily mentally disturbed morons who mendaciously claim to love the vilest monster imaginable. I can’t think of ONE redeeming quality the Old **** Killer has, whereas at least Adolf loved dogs!

Yet again this PROVES I am far more worshipful than God, and infinitely more decent than Him and his disgustingly ingratiating, scabby-gutted goon squad. I love my kids, and my dogs, unconditionally.

When my puppies piss on the carpet, or my daughter prostitutes herself, I don’t even scold them, let alone drown them and condemn them to Hell forever for falling short of my insane expectations.

Oh, to be like Me!
Oh, to be like Me, Blessed Redeemer, pure as I art!

Interesting. That was really a nice rant considering the statement you quoted and replied was not specifically about Christianity. I believe the term used was "religion."

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Interesting. That was really a nice rant considering the statement you quoted and replied was not specifically about Christianity. I believe the term used was "religion."

Thread #1

Is that which is good commanded by God because it is good, or is it good because God commands it?

Then please ask Conley to be more specific. I could have sworn he was talking about Bible-God because he has three "goods" and two "commands" in such a short sentence.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Morality DOES depend on society, and almost ALL societies originated from religion.

<blockquote>How have people organized their societies across the ages? The answer may be reduced to four basic forms of organization: <b>1.</b> the kinship-based tribe, as denoted by the structure of extended families, clans, and other lineage systems. <b>2</b>. the hierarchical institution, as exemplified by the army, the (Catholic) church, and ultimately the bureaucratic state.<b> 3</b>. competitive-exchange market, as symbolized by merchants and traders responding to forces of supply and demand. <b>4</b>. and the collaborative network, as found today in the web-like ties among some NGOs devoted to social advocacy. - <a href=http://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P7967/P7967.pdf>Tribes, Institutions, Markets, Networks</a></blockquote>


It would seem, from an evolutionary standpoint, that the hierarchical organization of religion was an element of societal evolution rather than the content of the religion itself.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Thread #1



Then please ask Conley to be more specific. I could have sworn he was talking about Bible-God because he has three "goods" and two "commands" in such a short sentence.

Well, technically the question doesn't address a specific deity, but given the forum, I was assuming that the Christian God would be the primary god of discussion.

 

[Gunny]

Thread #1


Then please ask Conley to be more specific. I could have sworn he was talking about Bible-God because he has three "goods" and two "commands" in such a short sentence.

We've gone a few miles since post #1. My statement was in response to the statement I quoted, and not dictated by Post #1.

 

[Gunny]

<blockquote>How have people organized their societies across the ages? The answer may be reduced to four basic forms of organization: <b>1.</b> the kinship-based tribe, as denoted by the structure of extended families, clans, and other lineage systems. <b>2</b>. the hierarchical institution, as exemplified by the army, the (Catholic) church, and ultimately the bureaucratic state.<b> 3</b>. competitive-exchange market, as symbolized by merchants and traders responding to forces of supply and demand. <b>4</b>. and the collaborative network, as found today in the web-like ties among some NGOs devoted to social advocacy. - <a href=http://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P7967/P7967.pdf>Tribes, Institutions, Markets, Networks</a></blockquote>


It would seem, from an evolutionary standpoint, that the hierarchical organization of religion was an element of societal evolution rather than the content of the religion itself.

I worded my statement poorly. IMO, it is the religion, or lack thereof, that ultimately defines the society, and its mores and values. The society may very well originate at the base level for reasons other than religion, but the religion will always define the moral behavior of that society, even if those morals preexist the religion.

In the for instance of Christianity, the moral value did not preexist the religion; rather, the religion dictated them.

You may say "murder" being against the law is just common sense ... but WHOSE common sense? Many cultures/societies have defined "murder" far differently than we, as products of a Judeo-Christian originated society do.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I worded my statement poorly. IMO, it is the religion, or lack thereof, that ultimately defines the society, and its mores and values. The society may very well originate at the base level for reasons other than religion, but the religion will always define the moral behavior of that society, even if those morals preexist the religion.

In the for instance of Christianity, the moral value did not preexist the religion; rather, the religion dictated them.

You may say "murder" being against the law is just common sense ... but WHOSE common sense? Many cultures/societies have defined "murder" far differently than we, as products of a Judeo-Christian originated society do.

In the for instance of Christianity, the moral value did not preexist the religion; rather, the religion dictated them.

Not so, Gunny.

Christinsanity got its &#8220;morals&#8221; from the patently "evil" genocidal Hebrews. And before that, the Hebrew &#8220;Something Borrowed, Something Blue, Something Old and Something Even Older&#8221; religion borrowed theirs from every \!/ and his dog's religions around them.

ALL of these religions were considered abominable IMMORAL dolatries, and their vile followers fit only for hellfire, in the eyes of the loathsome anthropomorphic God the Kikes eventually fabricated out of the hand-me-downs of these religions.

People who dream up a God - who should be the personification of His own morals, not the precise opposite - like that aren&#8217;t moral, at least not in a normal person&#8217;s perception of what is moral. They are lower than shark's shit! I defy anyone to come up with a more immoral entity than Bible-God.

If Christians are actually aspiring to be like their arsehole of a God, not just paying the fearful lip-service I suspect they are, then they are the epitome of the &#8220;evil&#8221; they are always accusing others of committing.