The debates

[danielpalos]

Why so many problems in historic Palestine?

In my opinion, we should ask the UN budget office to come up with Pareto Optimal economic plans for that region.

Economic levantas for the Levant!

 

[USAF 2023]

They were specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries. They merely divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The UN had no authority to create borders.

GOOD ! Then they have no authority to create borders now.

 

[P F Tinmore]

GOOD ! Then they have no authority to create borders now.

Who is they?

 

[USAF 2023]

Who is they?

Just referring to your post; the UN

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Considering threat of force against the territorial integrity
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: Nothing said on this topic will change P F Tinmore's mind. He accepts nothing that favors the Israelis. He believes that the Arab Palestinians be given territory on demand.

They were specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries. They merely divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The UN had no authority to create borders.

(COMMENT)

Well, this is not exactly accurate. The Armistice Lines were an agreement by the Military Commanders on the FEBAs in static placement under a ceasefire, as a matter of the 1948 conflict.

The Armistice (in this case) had no political consequence. The final decision was to be made by representatives of the respective heads of state.

GOOD ! Then they have no authority to create borders now.

(COMMENT)

There is actually no such thing as a "standing law" that stipulates the "authority to declare a border." For thousands back to the days of the Pharaohs, borders (one national authority on one side and one national authority on the other side) were established and defended by (but not limited to) new discovery, by force of arms - or - by heads of state [Accretion, Cession, Prescription (Terra Nullius or withdrawal)]. While the Ottoman Empire determined its borders by force of arms (including Syria in which undefined Palestine was to be found), the Treaty of Lausanne was an agreement by the appropriate heads of state.

None of these options actually describes the situation in which the Hostile Arab Palestinians find themselves.

The means • "how" • of territorial acquisition should not be confused by the • "who" • what power ultimately assumes sovereign control.

Who is they?

(COMMENT)

Well, let us clear this up right now... "Who" ever it was, be rest assured → it was by no means the Arab Palestinians. The West Bank (taken by force by Jordan) and the Gaza Strip (taken by force by Egypt) were at no time Hostile Arab Palestinian criminals have sovereign control of any territory over the entire span of the 20th Century. Israel did not take the remainder of the territory by force of arms, by rather → protected/defended it by force of arms. The confrontation in 1967, and further defended in 1973, was an act of national defense. In both cases, the Arab League Forces massed forces along the border and "threatened" the territorial integrity of Israel. Both were violations of Article 2(7) of the UN Charter and the latter being a case of coloring outside the lines of the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation.

(COMMENT)

Now, I can hear our friend P F Tinmore (and company) grinding teeth, But with the exception of the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, the sovereign boundaries along the Israel border with Jordan and Egypt have not changed much since the Peace Treaties were signed a quarter-century ago. On the other hand, the Hostile Arab Palestinians have not established even one year of peace in the last 30 years.

Does any of the Middle Eastern Neighbors want the Hatile Arab Palestinians running loose in their neighborhood? Probably not.


Just My Thought,

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Just referring to your post; the UN

Of course that would include the proposed borders of resolution `181.

 

[P F Tinmore]

He believes that the Arab Palestinians be given territory on demand.

I have never stated that the Palestinians be given any territory. The Palestinians have never asked to be given any territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Well, this is not exactly accurate. The Armistice Lines were an agreement by the Military Commanders on the FEBAs in static placement under a ceasefire, as a matter of the 1948 conflict.

So? They were not borders and therefore did not change Palestine's international borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is actually no such thing as a "standing law" that stipulates the "authority to declare a border." For thousands back to the days of the Pharaohs, borders (one national authority on one side and one national authority on the other side) were established and defended by (but not limited to) new discovery, by force of arms - or - by heads of state [Accretion, Cession, Prescription (Terra Nullius or withdrawal)].

So, which method did Israel use to acquire territory?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The means • "how" • of territorial acquisition should not be confused by the • "who" • what power ultimately assumes sovereign control.

Are you confusing military control with sovereignty again?

 

[P F Tinmore]

In both cases, the Arab League Forces massed forces along the border and "threatened" the territorial integrity of Israel.

What did that have to do with Palestine? It was not involved in those wars.

 

[USAF 2023]

Of course that would include the proposed borders of resolution `181.

You mean the Resolution the Arabs declined?
The Resolution that was supposed to give Israelis access to their Religious Sites?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Considering threat of force against the territorial integrity
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: Convoluting the message.

So, which method did Israel use to acquire territory?

(COMMENT)

In terms of the West Bank, and Jerusalem, sovereignty was abandoned by the Jordanians on 31 July 1988 (Disengagement from the West Bank). It was left in the hands of the Israelis (terra nullius), who maintained effective control.

• The Treaty Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
• Treaty of Peace Arab Republic of Egypt

Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, leaving it in the hands of an EU designated terrorist organization​

Are you confusing military control with sovereignty again?

(COMMENT)

I did not confuse anything. Israel is sovereign only on territory it claims and defends as sovereign.

For thousands of years, the use of military power to establish sovereign control was a valid means of acquiring territory. It is still in use today (ie Crimea - South China Sea).

I have never stated that the Palestinians be given any territory. The Palestinians have never asked to be given any territory.

(COMMENT)

Israel took no territory from the Arab Palestinian.

The Arab Palestinians had no identifiable state, nation or country between 1948 and 2012. Nor could any Palestinian authority be identifiable as a government.
(2012- UN Memo on Issue of the use of the name "Palestine" -.pdf)

It is my opinion that you are not considering the UN Legal Opinion. You are confusing the Hostile Arab Palestinian demands for some legal standing.

The delineation and demarcation of agreed upon borders are central to reaching an end of conflict on the basis of the two-state solution. A State of Palestine based on pre June 4th 1967 border with East Jerusalem as its Capital. The Palestinian position on borders has undergone a significant transformation since 1948. The national movement once laid claim to its rights over all of historic Palestine, an area that includes modern day state of Israel. Since 1988, however, in the interest of achieving peace and ending the conflict, the Palestinian leadership limited the national aspirations to statehood to 22 percent of mandate Palestine, seeking a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital (that is, all of the territory occupied by Israel in 1967). Despite this, Israel continues to create and change “facts on the ground,” with constructing the Annexation Wall, building and expanding illegal settlements, confiscating and grabbing Palestinian Land, demolishing of Palestinian homes, all in violation of international law.
SOURCE: PLO-NAD

The Hostile Arab Palestinians are essentially demanding territory that the IDF successfully defended twice (1967 and 1973) and for which the treaties have declared international boundaries.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[USAF 2023]

What did that have to do with Palestine? It was not involved in those wars.

It was those Countries that successfully annexed E. Jerusalem, the W. Bank and Gaza. They were not consider “ occupied” Deny it all you want but the Arabs initiated the 67 War

 

[P F Tinmore]

In terms of the West Bank, and Jerusalem, sovereignty was abandoned by the Jordanians on 31 July 1988

You keep saying that. Jordan failed to annex the West Bank. It was still occupied Palestinian territory. It is still occupied Palestinian territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was those Countries that successfully annexed E. Jerusalem, the W. Bank and Gaza. They were not consider “ occupied” Deny it all you want but the Arabs initiated the 67 War

Which Arabs?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Considering threat of force against the territorial integrity
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

It does not matter what YOU believe. The Arab Palestinians believed it and the Jordan Parliament believed it. It does not require recognition by you or anyone else.

Israel took effective control away from the Jordanians (not the Palestinians).

You keep saying that. Jordan failed to annex the West Bank. It was still occupied Palestinian territory. It is still occupied Palestinian territory.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel took effective control away from the Jordanians (not the Palestinians).

So then, why does the world call it occupied Palestinian territory?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You mean the Resolution the Arabs declined?
The Resolution that was supposed to give Israelis access to their Religious Sites?

Of course they did. The UN had no authority to create a border inside Palestine.

 

[USAF 2023]

Which Arabs?

There were three Countries but I’ll give you a hint. One of them closed the Straits of Tiran and sent the UN “ peacekeepers” away
I’m certain that if you think real hard you’ll figure out the other two