The death of Thanksgiving?

[thereisnospoon]

What family? Suppose they don't have a family. Suppose they don't like their family. No retailer is dragging customers in or making them go shopping. That's a personal decision.

They may not be dragging in customers, but they are dragging in their employees. Just to profit rather than allow their employees a day to do what they wish. And that includes family time.

What happened to "family values"? Does profit trump them? Or does "family values" mean something altogether different from family values?

Nos...it's the other way around. These retailers do market research. The research must be telling them that there is a demand for Thanksgiving Day opening...
Blame the consumer.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I would not shop on Thanksgiving Day. In my family, Thanksgiving has always been a time to spend with family and friends. It is also a tradition in our family to spend the day watching NFL football. Besides, the wife always winds up dragging me to the mall the following day (on Black Friday). It is not a pretty sight, and a day I dread. Both the parking lot and the mall are always completely full.

What do you do when someone doesn't like football? Maybe they would rather go shopping.

Tell them to go sit in the basement?

 

[Pogo]

More retailers have announced they will open Thanksgiving Day for your shopping pleasure, so to speak. Is this appropriate?

Should Thanksgiving remain a holiday, unique to America, when families gather together to give thanks, share a meal and create their own Thanksgiving memories and traditions? Or should Thanksgiving be a day when Mom or Dad has to excuse himself and go to work because bargains are offered to shoppers readying themselves for a holiday happening four weeks hence?

Will you shop on Thanksgiving, or will you take advantage of the day and enjoy it with family and friends?

Sometimes bargains are not really worth it, don't you think? If they come at the expense of yours or the clerk's family, are they really bargains at all?

There are hundreds of thousands of workers who do not get to celebrate holidays with their families. Most of them essential personnel.
Many others are in the entertainment and media business.
Working in holidays is nothing special. As long as the workers get holiday pay it's not a big deal.
If there is any animosity toward this, it should be sent in the direction of consumers.
If there were no demand( shoppers) the stores would not open.

When you get it right, you get it right. And you got this right.

Again, if we go by our own poll here those profiteers shouldn't find it lucrative.
But here I go back to my H.L. Mencken quote:
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public".

How right he was. We're a society of sheep since the most efficient propaganda machine ever invented was invented. If the box says "go shop on a family holiday" we go shop on a family holiday. If it says "go wait in line at 5 a.m. for Black Friday "deals" that aren't, we go stand in line and trample over our neighbors to do the box's bidding. If the box says "buy this inverted bathtub" we go buy the SUV. If it says "you must watch the Stupor Bowl" we genuflect and obey.

Sheep.

Baaaa Humbug.

 

[koshergrl]

Today at church we had our Thanksgiving Potluck.

It WASN'T on Thanksgiving!

Are the proper holiday celebration police going to get us?

 

[Cecilie1200]

What family? Suppose they don't have a family. Suppose they don't like their family. No retailer is dragging customers in or making them go shopping. That's a personal decision.

They may not be dragging in customers, but they are dragging in their employees. Just to profit rather than allow their employees a day to do what they wish. And that includes family time.

What happened to "family values"? Does profit trump them? Or does "family values" mean something altogether different from family values?

Oh, boo ******* hoo. People are forced to work for a living - at job responsibilities of which they were informed before they ever CHOSE to accept that job - rather than sitting at home, watching the boob tube. Alert the media! What a newsflash!

Why is it your job to decide what other people's family values ought to be, or how they're expressed? I'd be a lot more likely to believe in your bleeding-heart "compassion" if it didn't always lead to you controlling other people's lives.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't give respect for feelings. He is arguing that it's unethical to keep business open on state-recognized holidays.

That's insane.

He didn't argue that at all. What I saw him arguing was the concept that an ethical employer would put family ahead of profits for that one day. He wasn't suggesting that it be required or legislated or anything like that. He simply thought honorable people would respect the family traditions of their employees sufficiently to forego whatever profit would be made on those traditional family holidays.

It is just as valid opinion as is your opinion that there is no ethical problem with opening your store on Thanksgiving Day for those who prefer to shop than be traditional.

So the two of you disagree. He and I disagree on that in fact. But that doesn't make any one of us right or wrong so long as we express an opinion and don't presume to force it on somebody else as policy. Nosmo doesn't deserve to be berated or insulted for his opinion any more than you deserve to be berated or insulted for your opinion about whether to open on Thanksgiving.

And that right there would be the problem. "An ethical employer would view the world the way I do. Viewing it otherwise is unethical. Everyone SHOULD (that word again!) think and feel and behave the way I say is correct."

Sorry, I have a problem with that, and I DON'T find it a valid viewpoint at the point where it tries to project itself onto others and demonize them for not complying.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't give respect for feelings. He is arguing that it's unethical to keep business open on state-recognized holidays.

That's insane.

He didn't argue that at all. What I saw him arguing was the concept that an ethical employer would put family ahead of profits for that one day. He wasn't suggesting that it be required or legislated or anything like that. He simply thought honorable people would respect the family traditions of their employees sufficiently to forego whatever profit would be made on those traditional family holidays.

It is just as valid opinion as is your opinion that there is no ethical problem with opening your store on Thanksgiving Day for those who prefer to shop than be traditional.

So the two of you disagree. He and I disagree on that in fact. But that doesn't make any one of us right or wrong so long as we express an opinion and don't presume to force it on somebody else as policy. Nosmo doesn't deserve to be berated or insulted for his opinion any more than you deserve to be berated or insulted for your opinion about whether to open on Thanksgiving.

And that right there would be the problem. "An ethical employer would view the world the way I do. Viewing it otherwise is unethical. Everyone SHOULD (that word again!) think and feel and behave the way I say is correct."

Sorry, I have a problem with that, and I DON'T find it a valid viewpoint at the point where it tries to project itself onto others and demonize them for not complying.

Bingo.

And with leftards it's always about demonizing anyone who thinks/acts differently, and ultimately criminalizing them.

Cuz that's the way they roll.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The Hallmark Card image of the happy family gathered aroun the dinner table, for the most part, never got off the card.

It is a close enough approximation of millions of families across America. Not all, but very many.

Yes that is true. And it is the unmistakable image of what millions of Americans think of when they think of Thanksgiving--it is the cultural tradition most of us hold in our hearts even if we don't practice it ourselves.

Which is why I suppose I can emphathise so much with what Nosmo is saying here in this thread. Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road. I understand that.

And I also understand my family members, who get together only once or twice a year in most years, have a ball skipping out on the football games and going shopping on Thanksgiving afternoon or early evening.

Well, Foxy, who is making Christmas a "materialistic, stressful nightmare" for you, or for anyone, other than themselves? Do I have the ability to force you to overspend, stress out over details, etc. regarding the holidays? If you choose NOT to participate in that, can I do anything to change that?

My employer is open over holidays, as part of its 24/7 business model. They inform all of their prospective employees before they're hired that they are open on holidays, and that there is a possibility that they will be required to fill the necessary spaces for that. I chose to accept the job despite that. Usually, those holiday positions are filled by employees volunteering to do so, because they want the holiday pay that goes with it. One supervisor told me he didn't even remember the last time they had mandatory holiday work in our division.

Is it your place, or Nosmo's, or anyone else's, to change my employer's business model, or to deny those employees their choice to work holidays, based on how YOU think life "should" be, and where YOU think those people "should" be based on YOUR personal perception of what is and isn't ethical?

Life occasionally sucks. Wear a helmet. And if the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

 

[koshergrl]

I personally am thankful to the assholes who shop on Thanksgiving because it means they won't be getting in my way when I go shopping on some other day.

And I'm grateful to the workers who work on Thanksgiving, because it makes like easier for me if I want an ice cream cone, or want to catch a show.

Or take the family out to eat instead of cooking.

 

[syrenn]

Maybe because when I was a kid, my mom was the only one in the neighborhood that worked. All the other kids had stay at home moms.

so now we have it....and your reason for why you think no one should work on thanksgiving.

you are putting your shit, drama, angst and psyco childhood issues onto others......and what you think pleasnatville should be like

You wanted your mommy to stay home with you...... so you think that everyone should stay home with their family on thanksgiving and christmas.

Wow! That's a lot of hate coming from you. What exactly did I do? Other than express a wish for all children to have a happy Childhood? Do you hate everyone, or just me? Do you have any children? Have you cared for any children? Ever even watched or read "A Christmas Carol?" You are sounding so much like Scrooge pre the 3 visits.

Its not hate. It is recognizing why you feel that families should be together on "holidays" and people not working.

You felt cheated. It was a holiday...AND your birthday. You wanted her there with you and not working. You were unhappy becasue you were the only who's mothers work. It make you feel different..... and embarrassed.

That is why you would push to not have anyone working...... and families together.

lol..... i always wanted tiny time to die!!!! I could not stand that character....or the social commentary dickins was trying to push. And just an FYI....scrooge would have wanted everything closed too..... christmas shopping.... ba humbug!

 

[syrenn]

so now we have it....and your reason for why you think no one should work on thanksgiving.

you are putting your shit, drama, angst and psyco childhood issues onto others......and what you think pleasnatville should be like

You wanted your mommy to stay home with you...... so you think that everyone should stay home with their family on thanksgiving and christmas.

Wow! That's a lot of hate coming from you. .

Where do you read "hate" in any of that?

most don't like it being read so well......

 

[syrenn]

Today at church we had our Thanksgiving Potluck.

It WASN'T on Thanksgiving!

Are the proper holiday celebration police going to get us?

How DARE YOU!!!!

you are NOT allowed to be thankful...or to give thanks.... on any other day but THE day you are TOLD TO!!!

get with the damn program will you.

 

[Pogo]

so now we have it....and your reason for why you think no one should work on thanksgiving.

you are putting your shit, drama, angst and psyco childhood issues onto others......and what you think pleasnatville should be like

You wanted your mommy to stay home with you...... so you think that everyone should stay home with their family on thanksgiving and christmas.

Wow! That's a lot of hate coming from you. What exactly did I do? Other than express a wish for all children to have a happy Childhood? Do you hate everyone, or just me? Do you have any children? Have you cared for any children? Ever even watched or read "A Christmas Carol?" You are sounding so much like Scrooge pre the 3 visits.

Its not hate. It is recognizing why you feel that families should be together on "holidays" and people not working.

You felt cheated. It was a holiday...AND your birthday. You wanted her there with you and not working. You were unhappy becasue you were the only who's mothers work. It make you feel different..... and embarrassed.

That is why you would push to not have anyone working...... and families together.

lol..... i always wanted tiny time to die!!!! I could not stand that character....or the social commentary dickins was trying to push. And just an FYI....scrooge would have wanted everything closed too..... christmas shopping.... ba humbug!

Well I didn't have any such absent-parent experience, and I agree with Sheila, so there goes that theory... :tang::

Good point at the end though-- I've always wondered how Scrooge can send the kid to buy a turkey on Christmas Day -- especially when he had to giive his own clark the day off.

(Full disclosure here: in the Minstrel Players performance I was cast as Bob Cratchit)

 

[Sunshine]

It is a close enough approximation of millions of families across America. Not all, but very many.

Yes that is true. And it is the unmistakable image of what millions of Americans think of when they think of Thanksgiving--it is the cultural tradition most of us hold in our hearts even if we don't practice it ourselves.

Which is why I suppose I can emphathise so much with what Nosmo is saying here in this thread. Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road. I understand that.

And I also understand my family members, who get together only once or twice a year in most years, have a ball skipping out on the football games and going shopping on Thanksgiving afternoon or early evening.

Well, Foxy, who is making Christmas a "materialistic, stressful nightmare" for you, or for anyone, other than themselves? Do I have the ability to force you to overspend, stress out over details, etc. regarding the holidays? If you choose NOT to participate in that, can I do anything to change that?

My employer is open over holidays, as part of its 24/7 business model. They inform all of their prospective employees before they're hired that they are open on holidays, and that there is a possibility that they will be required to fill the necessary spaces for that. I chose to accept the job despite that. Usually, those holiday positions are filled by employees volunteering to do so, because they want the holiday pay that goes with it. One supervisor told me he didn't even remember the last time they had mandatory holiday work in our division.

Is it your place, or Nosmo's, or anyone else's, to change my employer's business model, or to deny those employees their choice to work holidays, based on how YOU think life "should" be, and where YOU think those people "should" be based on YOUR personal perception of what is and isn't ethical?

Life occasionally sucks. Wear a helmet. And if the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

A lot of people volunteer to work holidays in hospitals as well. We always celebrated the holidays, just not on THE holiday. This year we are foregoing both Christmas AND Thanksgiving and I am visiting the kids the last week of the year. The drive is difficult for the grandbaby and for me, so we are doing it this way instead.

 

[BullKurtz]

Well, I guess this thread can't come to an end because it's turned into something other-worldly as usual. It's a simple premise....should we shop on Thanksgiving or stay home with family whether there's any family around you can stand being around, (Kurtz gasps for breath) or fake having a family around so the neighbors don't think you're a recluse or serial killer baking a victim's leg instead of a turkey.

The poll says it's 46-3 for not shopping.

Any questions?

 

[koshergrl]

Actually, the thread wasn't about whether or not we should shop.

It was about whether or not shops should be open...thus *forcing* workers in retail to work, and pandering to those horrible people who dare to shop on a day when others think they should be sitting in their homes, eating turkey and NOT watching television.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is a close enough approximation of millions of families across America. Not all, but very many.

Yes that is true. And it is the unmistakable image of what millions of Americans think of when they think of Thanksgiving--it is the cultural tradition most of us hold in our hearts even if we don't practice it ourselves.

Which is why I suppose I can emphathise so much with what Nosmo is saying here in this thread. Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road. I understand that.

And I also understand my family members, who get together only once or twice a year in most years, have a ball skipping out on the football games and going shopping on Thanksgiving afternoon or early evening.

Well, Foxy, who is making Christmas a "materialistic, stressful nightmare" for you, or for anyone, other than themselves? Do I have the ability to force you to overspend, stress out over details, etc. regarding the holidays? If you choose NOT to participate in that, can I do anything to change that?

My employer is open over holidays, as part of its 24/7 business model. They inform all of their prospective employees before they're hired that they are open on holidays, and that there is a possibility that they will be required to fill the necessary spaces for that. I chose to accept the job despite that. Usually, those holiday positions are filled by employees volunteering to do so, because they want the holiday pay that goes with it. One supervisor told me he didn't even remember the last time they had mandatory holiday work in our division.

Is it your place, or Nosmo's, or anyone else's, to change my employer's business model, or to deny those employees their choice to work holidays, based on how YOU think life "should" be, and where YOU think those people "should" be based on YOUR personal perception of what is and isn't ethical?

Life occasionally sucks. Wear a helmet. And if the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

You haven't been reading my posts, have you Cecile. If you had, you would know that you are accusing Nosmo and me wrongly here.

Neither Nosmo nor I have suggested that it is our place to change an employer's business model. He has expressed his opinion that he loves a Saturday Evening Post Norman Rockwell observance of Thanksgiving and he would much like to return to the days that almost all those in non essential occupations got to experience that. And in his opinion, the lure of profits should not upstage that. And he feels critical of those who do put profits ahead of the traditional Thanksgiving just as you or I would be critical of those who do not respect American customs during the playing of the National Anthem or saluting the flag. We aren't demanding they be forced to respect those customs. But we wish everybody would.

Wishing is not totalitarianism.

His opinion is in no way coercive. It is in no way intended to take away anybody's choices or liberties. His opinion I believe comes from the heart and is not born of any malice or ulterior motives of any kind. My personal view of the best way to celebrate Thanksgiving is not the same as his. I don't have a problem with the stores opening on Thanskgiving. But that does not make his point of view in any way wrong.

And I did not say or even suggest that I did not create my own stress in preparations to celebrate Christmas either, or that I had to join in with the modern day cultural customs and/or expectations. I was blaming nobody. I was expressing a personal point of view that Christmas has become materialistic and that does increase stress for many people. That is not an evil observation. It is simply an observation.

 

[Foxfyre]

The bottom line is, if the stores were not open on Thanksgiving Day, folks would not miss having those stores open. And would do something else that they might or might not enjoy doing more. But the fact that the stores do open and those in my family having a ball on those holiday shopping expeditions takes absolutely nothing away from those who prefer to stay home.

 

[High_Gravity]

I don't know about you guys but I'm ready for all that Thanksgiving food!

 

[Foxfyre]

And in the Christmas play, I played Mrs. Cratchit.