The Cosmological Arguments for God's Existence
- Thread starter Ringtone
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Fort Fun Indiana
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Neat! But I admit the possibility that "god did it" anyway, no matter what scientific theory of the "how" I explore.
So, if the unverse spontaneously popped into existence..."by dumb luck", as you say...you can just insert god by asking "who created those odds?", and then answering the question yourself, "god". There is no conflict, there. Fine, so god did it . Or not. That doesn't matter, when describing the "how".
"God did it!" doesn't preclude anything I propose. You are the one trying to impose magical constraints, not me.
"It can't possibly be THAT way, because that's not my preferred magical explanation." Well, then choose another.
Thats your burden, not mine.
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idb
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So, you're saying that you need evidence that a god exists.
What happens when that evidence is proven wrong?
Galileo caused a few rosary beads to be clutched.
JimBowie1958
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It is hilarious that if you agree with Aristotle, Aquinas and the priest that developed the Big Bang theory you have to be a Christian fundamentalist, roflmao.
I am too old to waste what little time I have left on Earth on witless, closed minded, condescending, clinging materialists.
They are much better on ignore.
JimBowie1958
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I thought you were male, as well.
I apologize for that and want you to know that your posts are enjoyable to read as is ding and Ringtone's also.
JimBowie1958
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I agree and think that these are early oral histories of mankind coming out of the Toba Catastrophe, and the end of the last Glacial age in which trapped lake were released due to melting glaciers that had damned up all that water, the biggest being the glacial damn in the Bosporus.
Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia
The Toba supereruption was a supervolcanic eruption that occurred about 75,000 years ago at the site of present-day Lake Toba in Sumatra, Indonesia. It is one of the Earth's largest known eruptions. The Toba catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a global volcanic winter of six to ten years and possibly a 1,000-year-long cooling episode.
...
The Toba eruption or Toba event occurred at the present location of Lake Toba in Indonesia, about 75000±900 years BP according to potassium argon dating.[4] This eruption was the last and largest of four eruptions of Toba during the Quaternary period, and is also recognized from its diagnostic horizon of ashfall, the youngest Toba tuff.[5] It had an estimated volcanic explosivity index of 8 (the highest rating of any known eruption on Earth); it made a sizable contribution to the 100×30 km caldera complex.[6] Dense-rock equivalent (DRE) estimates of eruptive volume for the eruption vary between 2000 km3 and 3000 km3 – the most common DRE estimate is 2800 km3 (about 7×1015 kg) of erupted magma, of which 800 km3 was deposited as ash fall.[7]
The erupted mass was 100 times greater than that of the largest volcanic eruption in recent history, the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia, which caused the 1816 "Year Without a Summer" in the Northern Hemisphere.[8] Toba's erupted mass deposited an ash layer of about 15 centimetres (5.9 in) thick over the whole of South Asia. A blanket of volcanic ash was also deposited over the Indian Ocean, the Arabian Sea, and the South China Sea.[9] Deep-sea cores retrieved from the South China Sea have extended the known reach of the eruption, suggesting that the 2800 km3 calculation of the erupted mass is a minimum value or even an underestimate.[10]
Volcanic winter and cooling computer models[edit]
Geologist Michael R. Rampino and volcanologist Stephen Self argue that the eruption caused a "brief, dramatic cooling or 'volcanic winter'", which resulted in a drop of the global mean surface temperature by 3–5 °C.[11] Evidence from Greenland ice cores indicates a 1,000-year period of low δ18O and increased dust deposition immediately following the eruption. The eruption may have caused this 1,000-year period of cooler temperatures (stadial), two centuries of which could be accounted for by the persistence of the Toba stratospheric loading.[12] Rampino and Self believe that global cooling was already underway at the time of the eruption, but that the process was slow; Toba tuff "may have provided the extra 'kick' that caused the climate system to switch from warm to cold states".[13] Although Clive Oppenheimer rejects the hypothesis that the eruption triggered the last glaciation,[14] he agrees that it may have been responsible for a millennium of cool climate prior to the 19th Dansgaard-Oeschger event.[15]
According to Alan Robock, who has also published nuclear winter papers, the Toba eruption did not precipitate the last glacial period. However, assuming an emission of six billion tons of sulphur dioxide, his computer simulations concluded that a maximum global cooling of approximately 15 °C occurred for three years after the eruption, and that this cooling would last for decades, devastating life.[16] Because the saturated adiabatic lapse rate is 4.9 °C/1,000 m for temperatures above freezing,[17] the tree line and the snow line were around 3,000 m (9,900 ft) lower at this time.[where?] The climate recovered over a few decades, and Robock found no evidence that the 1,000-year cold period seen in Greenland ice core records had resulted from the Toba eruption. In contrast, Oppenheimer believes that estimates of a drop in surface temperature by 3–5 °C are probably too high, and he suggests that temperatures dropped only by 1 °C.[18] Robock has criticized Oppenheimer's analysis, arguing that it is based on simplistic T-forcing relationships.[19]
Despite these different estimates, scientists agree that a supereruption of the scale at Toba must have led to very extensive ash-fall layers and injection of noxious gases into the atmosphere, with worldwide effects on weather and climate.[20] In addition, the Greenland ice core data display an abrupt climate change around this time,[21] but there is no consensus that the eruption directly generated the 1,000-year cold period seen in Greenland or triggered the last glaciation.[22]
...
The Toba eruption or Toba event occurred at the present location of Lake Toba in Indonesia, about 75000±900 years BP according to potassium argon dating.[4] This eruption was the last and largest of four eruptions of Toba during the Quaternary period, and is also recognized from its diagnostic horizon of ashfall, the youngest Toba tuff.[5] It had an estimated volcanic explosivity index of 8 (the highest rating of any known eruption on Earth); it made a sizable contribution to the 100×30 km caldera complex.[6] Dense-rock equivalent (DRE) estimates of eruptive volume for the eruption vary between 2000 km3 and 3000 km3 – the most common DRE estimate is 2800 km3 (about 7×1015 kg) of erupted magma, of which 800 km3 was deposited as ash fall.[7]
The erupted mass was 100 times greater than that of the largest volcanic eruption in recent history, the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia, which caused the 1816 "Year Without a Summer" in the Northern Hemisphere.[8] Toba's erupted mass deposited an ash layer of about 15 centimetres (5.9 in) thick over the whole of South Asia. A blanket of volcanic ash was also deposited over the Indian Ocean, the Arabian Sea, and the South China Sea.[9] Deep-sea cores retrieved from the South China Sea have extended the known reach of the eruption, suggesting that the 2800 km3 calculation of the erupted mass is a minimum value or even an underestimate.[10]
Volcanic winter and cooling computer models[edit]
Geologist Michael R. Rampino and volcanologist Stephen Self argue that the eruption caused a "brief, dramatic cooling or 'volcanic winter'", which resulted in a drop of the global mean surface temperature by 3–5 °C.[11] Evidence from Greenland ice cores indicates a 1,000-year period of low δ18O and increased dust deposition immediately following the eruption. The eruption may have caused this 1,000-year period of cooler temperatures (stadial), two centuries of which could be accounted for by the persistence of the Toba stratospheric loading.[12] Rampino and Self believe that global cooling was already underway at the time of the eruption, but that the process was slow; Toba tuff "may have provided the extra 'kick' that caused the climate system to switch from warm to cold states".[13] Although Clive Oppenheimer rejects the hypothesis that the eruption triggered the last glaciation,[14] he agrees that it may have been responsible for a millennium of cool climate prior to the 19th Dansgaard-Oeschger event.[15]
According to Alan Robock, who has also published nuclear winter papers, the Toba eruption did not precipitate the last glacial period. However, assuming an emission of six billion tons of sulphur dioxide, his computer simulations concluded that a maximum global cooling of approximately 15 °C occurred for three years after the eruption, and that this cooling would last for decades, devastating life.[16] Because the saturated adiabatic lapse rate is 4.9 °C/1,000 m for temperatures above freezing,[17] the tree line and the snow line were around 3,000 m (9,900 ft) lower at this time.[where?] The climate recovered over a few decades, and Robock found no evidence that the 1,000-year cold period seen in Greenland ice core records had resulted from the Toba eruption. In contrast, Oppenheimer believes that estimates of a drop in surface temperature by 3–5 °C are probably too high, and he suggests that temperatures dropped only by 1 °C.[18] Robock has criticized Oppenheimer's analysis, arguing that it is based on simplistic T-forcing relationships.[19]
Despite these different estimates, scientists agree that a supereruption of the scale at Toba must have led to very extensive ash-fall layers and injection of noxious gases into the atmosphere, with worldwide effects on weather and climate.[20] In addition, the Greenland ice core data display an abrupt climate change around this time,[21] but there is no consensus that the eruption directly generated the 1,000-year cold period seen in Greenland or triggered the last glaciation.[22]
This extended volcanic winter not only killed off much life, it also likely covered the planet in a cloud cover that obscured the sun for a time. And so I suspect that the First Chapter of Genesis is an oral tradition of what earl modern man experienced as the Earth recovered from this massive catastrophic darkness.
Also, the event may have caused some evolutionary pressure for modern man to develop complex language and sentence structure, making mankind capable of learning the concept of sin and guilt.
JimBowie1958
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But if only they would wipe their asses and flush, that would be appreciated.
james bond
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God had to do it because there was no space time. God is timeless and spaceless. There was only the void. Even a quantum particle couldn't exist in the void. Science backs up the anthropic principle or law of human existence. We are fine tuned for existence or else humans wouldn't be here -- When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe.
You made no case for which, if any, of the gods did anything. There is no reason to accept that your gods, or anyone else’s gods, are timeless or spaceless with the stereotypical “... because I say so” argument.
The “fine tuned universe” is another obviously nonsensical claim.
Any chance you could offer a supportable argument?
No, apologetics is actually for believers. Let’s be honest and admit that overwhelmingly, believers are born into a culture, society that favors some over others. Raise a child in a Hindu culture and overwhelmingly that child will be a believer in the Hindu gods.
Belief for most people is uncritically accepting the gods you were given as a function of place of birth.
If?
LittleNipper
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It's the belief that everything has been moving along pretty much the same for hundreds of millions of years. No FLOOD, no 6 day creation, just a slow wearing away and slow rebuilding process repeated over and over...
Its also just too tedious to follow 8 paragraph long gish gallops full of bold assertions, bold assertions, bold assertions, half-truth and then conclusions. Its too bone-headed.
The way to do these discussions is verbally. I have to get my stream back going - but then - I doubt these guys would call. Or maybe they would, who knows. We had 18 people from USMB on the line at one time once...but that was for some trivia I think and not an actual debate. Id be glad to host discussions like these.
LittleNipper
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We don't all disagree. Many hold to the very same truths but they originated under different leadership and from different countries: Lutherans (Germany), Huguenots (French), Mennonite (Swiss), Puritans (English), etc..
There are Jews who are Messianic, and there are many former Hindi who now know Christ as their personal Savior. People who are honest, will realize that trying to be good enough for GOD isn't possible. There is the need of a permanent solution. Jesus was/is the only permanent solution..
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JimBowie1958
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So the Creator just cant help wanting to toss the vast majority of His children into the burning Lake of Fire for all eternity?
roflmao, I don't agree with you concept of God.
It is His Will that all be saved, and so they will be, eventually.
But some hard heads take longer than others.
So if your faith produced no good fruit you would continue to have faith for no good reason?
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