The College Trap.

There is a classic bar-room riddle, exchanged by crude males like me while in a state of semi-inebriation. It goes like this: Why does a (male) dog lick its balls?

Answer: Because it CAN!

The riddle comes to mind because this is PRECISELY why colleges charge such outrageous tuitions and fees. Because they CAN!

Somebody please 'splain to me how a typical public high school can provide 180 days of instruction, 6 hours each, at a cost of, say, $12 thousand per year, while a typical private college struggles to provide much less instruction (15 credits times 15 weeks times two semesters, plus exams) at twice that cost. Doing the math, the high school is providing 1,080 hours of instruction, while the college is providing about 500 hours of instruction and testing - less than half as much. Twice as much money: half the instruction. Maybe if they didn't have a palatial Student Union, superfluous campus police, a gigantic, modern fitness facility, and more "administrators" than faculty, they wouldn't have to charge so much.

And theoretically, high schools carry the burden of educating the chillens, while college instructors merely guide students through the materials, and the students must learn most of it on their own.

But all that is beside the point.

How we go about deciding on a college. selecting a major, and figuring out how to finance it is one of the perversities of our culture. It is a decision that requires maturity, sound judgment, and experience in economic matters - none of which is possessed by an 18-year-old high school student. And yet most parents expect - indeed, DEMAND - that their 18-year-olds make these decisions. Then, once the decisions are made by the CHILD, the child and the parent go about the process of financing the venture. While it is nice that the child be happy, the parents should hold an absolute veto on the school, and should exercise that veto when the child's desires make no economic sense.

"If you want to major in Beowulf, Community College will be fine!"

And historically, our Federal and State governments have done their best to facilitate the assumption of massive amounts of education-debt, in the mistaken belief that regardless of how much debt is accumulated, the immeasurable financial benefits of a Bachelor's Degree will provide sufficient adult income to pay it off. Dare I suggest that anyone not a member of Congress knows that this is nonsense?

Is there any question that the greed of the institutions, the stupidity of the government student loan programs, and the irrational indulgence of the parents create a "perfect storm" of catastrophic misjudgment that results in the situation complained of in the OP? You almost want to say, Why not pop out a few illegitimate children while you're at it, to fuck up your life completely?

But even with today's stratospheric college costs, it is possible for a middle-class American (meaning, pretty much anyone) to pay for and finance a college education such that the prospects are favorable for having it paid off within a decade or so, and living a fairly prosperous life. Especially if one's Baby Boomer parents have the good grace to die at a propitious time.

Pick the right school; pick the right major; work your ass off. It still works.

Not to get personal here, but I financed my own college, MBA, and law school with a combination of personal savings, personal earnings (including those of my wife), the GI Bill, employer support, one small bank student loan, one small ($300) personal loan, and $1,200 scholarship from the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency - given to me gladly because I was a Vietnam Fucking Vet. I still am.

Any middle class kid who is majoring in Art Appreciation deserves a Dope Slap, along with his idiot parents.
 
Join the military under the GI Bill ... Save money while the government feeds, clothes and houses you while in the service.
Attend college for free ... Have enough money to buy a small house, car and have fun while in college.

Graduate college ... Sell the house and car ... Buy another house, car and boat.
Put the pretty diploma in a nice frame ... Forget about it and get a real job.

Work circles around your co-workers ... Get all the extra training possible.
Advance your career by leaps and bounds compared to others ... Using the skills you learned in the military in regards to teamwork, time management, mission focus and a drive for excellence.

Sell the house, car, boat ... Buy new ones ... Open a business and laugh at people who complain about being stuck in debt because they went to college and are as dumb as a box of rocks.




Edit:
I forgot to mention that there is still risk involved ... You may get killed or torn up before you ever get to the second sentence.

.
 
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Join the military under the GI Bill ... Save money while the government feeds, clothes and houses you while in the service.
Attend college for free ... Have enough money to buy a small house, car and have fun while in college.

Graduate college ... Sell the house and car ... Buy another house, car and boat.
Put the pretty diploma in a nice frame ... Forget about it and get a real job.

Work circles around your co-workers ... Get all the extra training possible.
Advance your career by leaps and bounds compared to others ... Using the skills you learned in the military in regards to teamwork, time management, mission focus and a drive for excellence.

Sell the house, car, boat ... Buy new ones ... Open a business and laugh at people who complain about being stuck in debt because they went to college and are as dumb as a box of rocks.

.




My best bud was the only ROTC at Yale.

Thus...paid for his own education.

Graduated and was commissioned, Armored Cavalry, the same day.
 
The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944...the GI Bill.....gave returning servicemen money to spend on any educational endeavor they wished.

It worked wonders.


Sure sounds like "vouchers" to me.
 
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The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944...the GI Bill.....gave returning servicemen money to spend on any educational endeavor they wished.

It worked wonders.


Sure sounds like "vouchers" to me.

The current GI Bill is referred to as the GI Bill Education Benefit - Post 9/11 Military Tuition Benefit.
It isn't the same as being a Commissioned Officer after college ... And is available to just about anyone who joins the military.

.
 
The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944...the GI Bill.....gave returning servicemen money to spend on any educational endeavor they wished.

It worked wonders.


Sure sounds like "vouchers" to me.

The current GI Bill is referred to as the GI Bill Education Benefit - Post 9/11 Military Tuition Benefit.
It isn't the same as being a Commissioned Officer after college ... And is available to just about anyone who joins the military.

.



But what if you didn't join the military, serve your country.....

....or even spend your life abiding by the law, respecting your fellow citizens?

Could you still get your college education paid for by the taxpayer???



Sure!!!!


That's Liberal policy! Take care of those who don't follow the rules, show responsibility to others.

That's who Liberals such as NY Governor Cuomo see as entitled to our largesse....


"Last month, Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced a statewide initiative to give inmates the opportunity to earn college degrees. New York currently spends $60,000 a year per prisoner and, upon release, about 40 percent of them return to crime. The state estimates it would cost $5,000 to provide a year of college education per inmate, over two to three years. Research shows that offering college degrees reduces recidivism rates dramatically. According to the Bard Prison Initiative, a program run by the elite liberal arts college, of which Cardenales is an alumnus, recidivism is less than 4 percent for all students who have enrolled, and 2.5 percent for graduates. Hudson Link for Higher Education in Prison has a recidivism rate of less than two percent for its graduates."

In 1986, when Sean Pica was arrested at age 16 for killing a classmate's father, he says he assumed prison would be nothing but a "cell and a bed.

"... go there and see guys carrying textbooks and having dialogues about Nietzsche, I was surprised by that," said Pica. "I was also intrigued, and thought that maybe I could do it myself."
College behind bars: Cuomo plan expands on programs that give inmates a second chance
 
I knew you couldn't find a single thing wrong with the content of the post, Smugly.

Again I have to confess I didn't actually read the OP, being fore armed with 99.9% surety that doing so would be a tedious intellectually barren wallow in garbled assertions, merit-less conclusions and questionable provenance. You have a well deserved reputation as a political chicken-little type character running around loudly proclaiming apocalyptic sky-is-falling scenarios in breathless snatches of purloined prose. This reputation precedes my criticism and will dog your efforts until your MO is reformed.


You're not the brightest poster, are you.

Probably not, but at least I try not to proudly, glaringly advertise that fact with post after dimly conceived post ad infinitum ad nauseum. You really should do a little self analysis and realize that your methodology gives no traction to the ideas you try to promulgate. Was it Einstein who defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? You'd be better off worrying more about your own intellectual luminosity, or lack there of, and less about mine.
 
I knew you couldn't find a single thing wrong with the content of the post, Smugly.

Again I have to confess I didn't actually read the OP, being fore armed with 99.9% surety that doing so would be a tedious intellectually barren wallow in garbled assertions, merit-less conclusions and questionable provenance. You have a well deserved reputation as a political chicken-little type character running around loudly proclaiming apocalyptic sky-is-falling scenarios in breathless snatches of purloined prose. This reputation precedes my criticism and will dog your efforts until your MO is reformed.


You're not the brightest poster, are you.

Probably not, but at least I try not to proudly, glaringly advertise that fact with post after dimly conceived post ad infinitum ad nauseum. You really should do a little self analysis and realize that your methodology gives no traction to the ideas you try to promulgate. Was it Einstein who defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? You'd be better off worrying more about your own intellectual luminosity, or lack there of, and less about mine.




"I didn't actually read the OP,..."


Case closed.
 
I knew you couldn't find a single thing wrong with the content of the post, Smugly.

Again I have to confess I didn't actually read the OP, being fore armed with 99.9% surety that doing so would be a tedious intellectually barren wallow in garbled assertions, merit-less conclusions and questionable provenance. You have a well deserved reputation as a political chicken-little type character running around loudly proclaiming apocalyptic sky-is-falling scenarios in breathless snatches of purloined prose. This reputation precedes my criticism and will dog your efforts until your MO is reformed.


You're not the brightest poster, are you.

Probably not, but at least I try not to proudly, glaringly advertise that fact with post after dimly conceived post ad infinitum ad nauseum. You really should do a little self analysis and realize that your methodology gives no traction to the ideas you try to promulgate. Was it Einstein who defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? You'd be better off worrying more about your own intellectual luminosity, or lack there of, and less about mine.




"I didn't actually read the OP,..."


Case closed.

Do you really think anyone does?
 
OK, this old millwright took a bit over 100 credits about 40 years ago. Was an older student, even then. Paid for it myself, and dropped out and went back to my tools when the '72 price spiral occured. Took mostly science, math, and english classes at that time. So, in my career as a millwright, did any of this benefit me?

The answer is a resounding ...YES. I learned to present my ideas concisely, to analyse problems in a stepped manner, so as to know how to manage the solutions. Did I do great and wonderful things. No, I just made an upper middle income for my family and managed to indulge my love of travel and geology within the US. Now I am attending, part time, while still working as a millwright in a steel mill, college again. Since I am only 70, best finish up my degree while I am still young. LOL

No, you do not need to go to college to get an education, and many that attend college come out uneducated. But it is one hell of a lot easier to achieve an education if you do attend college.
 
So the premise is that a college education is overrated and it leads to high debt by graduates. They subsequently have a hard time paying off the debt. Now me being 74 years of age and other posters bantering about how much smarter they are than each other, I say its up to the person. I was one of 3 brothers. My other two brothers didn't believe in college so they joined the military. I refused to go that route. They got out of the military and ended up working(I mean slaving) away for a very very modest income. I got my education and it opened me up to many jobs. I walked off the job without notice(very empowering) in one instance and within a week had another job for better pay and benefits. Had I no college degree this would not have been possible. Then again those were different times. But I still believe its a longer road to success without that degree. Where I live the local contractors won't even consider hiring a construction laborer without some kind of further training. So I don't think a college degree is such a bad investment. Also, owning a home shouldn't be such a huge deal for young people. Work, save, and wait until you can afford to pay for the house without borrowing much money. If it takes you until 40 years old so be it. Its difficult to much less buy a car even if one is earning $100,000 per year. So if a kid seems to be of good intelligence he/she should be encouraged to attend college. Hard to be a doctor or engineer without one. We need a lot less blue collar workers in this country. We need a lot more white collar workers.
 
T

Not to get personal here, but I financed my own college, MBA, and law school with a combination of personal savings, personal earnings (including those of my wife), the GI Bill, employer support, one small bank student loan, one small ($300) personal loan, and $1,200 scholarship from the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency - given to me gladly because I was a Vietnam Fucking Vet. I still am.


I suspect you (and I since we are clearly of the same era) could not have completed school today like we both did back then.

Our GI bill paid better than today's GI bill, PHEAA isn't handing out cash like it once did me (and you I am guessing) and the COST today dwarfs what you and I paid to go to school.

http://www.bu.edu/reg/registration/tuition-and-fees/tuition-and-fees-2013-2014/

Schools are three times as expensive as when I went to BU, but few families make three times as much as they made in the late 70s early 80s.

Kids today do not have the same opportunities you and I had. Simple as that.

Not even veterans, mate have the same opportunities.
 
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You imagine "narcissist" to be a pejorative?


That's only because you have a deep and abiding.....and totally compelling, self-hatred.


Well-earned, I might add.
So that must explain the Right's obsession with calling Obama a narcissist! :eusa_whistle:

definition-of-narcissism-barack-obama.jpg


https://www.google.com/search?num=1...B5H2oASDr4GIAg&ved=0CCcQBSgA&biw=1215&bih=869
 
T

Not to get personal here, but I financed my own college, MBA, and law school with a combination of personal savings, personal earnings (including those of my wife), the GI Bill, employer support, one small bank student loan, one small ($300) personal loan, and $1,200 scholarship from the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency - given to me gladly because I was a Vietnam Fucking Vet. I still am.


I suspect you (and I since we are clearly of the same era) could not have completed school today like we both did back then.

Our GI bill paid better than today's GI bill, PHEAA isn't handing out cash like it once did me (and you I am guessing) and the COST today dwarfs what you and I paid to go to school.

Tuition and Fees 2013-2014 » Office of the University Registrar | Boston University

Schools are three times as expensive as when I went to BU, but few families make three times as much as they made in the late 70s early 80s.

Kids today do not have the same opportunities you and I had. Simple as that.

Not even veterans, mate have the same opportunities.

There are also more benefits in how a soldier can facilitate college under the current GI Bill.
The benefits are greater the longer you are in the service ... And the more you contribute to your education fund.
The soldier can CLEP out of a lot of the introductory courses ... The ability to test out of first year English, Algebra and introductory Sciences (you still have to take the Labs when you get on campus).
A soldier can take certain online courses free of charge while still in the service through approve colleges (Like the University of Maryland) ... And the credits are guaranteed to transfer.

Tuition is not the same for veterans using the GI Bill to fund their college at many institutions.
There are programs that will assist with housing and living expenses for veterans in some areas.

Long story short ... I received a Bachelors of Science in Psychology after spending only 2.5 years on campus ... And for less money than the same number of courses would have cost the standard student.

.
 
Again I have to confess I didn't actually read the OP, being fore armed with 99.9% surety that doing so would be a tedious intellectually barren wallow in garbled assertions, merit-less conclusions and questionable provenance. You have a well deserved reputation as a political chicken-little type character running around loudly proclaiming apocalyptic sky-is-falling scenarios in breathless snatches of purloined prose. This reputation precedes my criticism and will dog your efforts until your MO is reformed.




Probably not, but at least I try not to proudly, glaringly advertise that fact with post after dimly conceived post ad infinitum ad nauseum. You really should do a little self analysis and realize that your methodology gives no traction to the ideas you try to promulgate. Was it Einstein who defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? You'd be better off worrying more about your own intellectual luminosity, or lack there of, and less about mine.




"I didn't actually read the OP,..."


Case closed.

Do you really think anyone does?




You know they do.

In fact, this is why you post lies, such as this post.



I really must be hitting a nerve, huh?

Great.
 
OK, this old millwright took a bit over 100 credits about 40 years ago. Was an older student, even then. Paid for it myself, and dropped out and went back to my tools when the '72 price spiral occured. Took mostly science, math, and english classes at that time. So, in my career as a millwright, did any of this benefit me?

The answer is a resounding ...YES. I learned to present my ideas concisely, to analyse problems in a stepped manner, so as to know how to manage the solutions. Did I do great and wonderful things. No, I just made an upper middle income for my family and managed to indulge my love of travel and geology within the US. Now I am attending, part time, while still working as a millwright in a steel mill, college again. Since I am only 70, best finish up my degree while I am still young. LOL

No, you do not need to go to college to get an education, and many that attend college come out uneducated. But it is one hell of a lot easier to achieve an education if you do attend college.



Bravo.


Now, if you could only separate education from indoctrination.....

Seems they can't teach you to think for yourself......
 
So the premise is that a college education is overrated and it leads to high debt by graduates. They subsequently have a hard time paying off the debt. Now me being 74 years of age and other posters bantering about how much smarter they are than each other, I say its up to the person. I was one of 3 brothers. My other two brothers didn't believe in college so they joined the military. I refused to go that route. They got out of the military and ended up working(I mean slaving) away for a very very modest income. I got my education and it opened me up to many jobs. I walked off the job without notice(very empowering) in one instance and within a week had another job for better pay and benefits. Had I no college degree this would not have been possible. Then again those were different times. But I still believe its a longer road to success without that degree. Where I live the local contractors won't even consider hiring a construction laborer without some kind of further training. So I don't think a college degree is such a bad investment. Also, owning a home shouldn't be such a huge deal for young people. Work, save, and wait until you can afford to pay for the house without borrowing much money. If it takes you until 40 years old so be it. Its difficult to much less buy a car even if one is earning $100,000 per year. So if a kid seems to be of good intelligence he/she should be encouraged to attend college. Hard to be a doctor or engineer without one. We need a lot less blue collar workers in this country. We need a lot more white collar workers.



1. "So the premise is that a college education is overrated and it leads to high debt by graduates."

Premise?
No....the fact.



2. "But I still believe its a longer road to success without that degree..... So I don't think a college degree is such a bad investment."

Perhaps....but the reason that I posted the OP is because the study found quite the opposite.

Care to conjecture on that?



3. "Also, owning a home shouldn't be such a huge deal for young people. Work, save, and wait until you can afford to pay for the house without borrowing much money."

Excellent.

And that is the difference between you and what folks like the Food-Stamp President have created.

You were blessed with folks who taught you something, instilled something, you cannot learn in government schools.

Those values are missing, and in large measure it is not by accident. The Liberal doctrine is a determination to make the electorate dependent.



4. "So if a kid seems to be of good intelligence he/she should be encouraged to attend college."
Perhaps.

For me, one need first decide if life revolves around materialism, or something else. If college is merely a vocational school, and the material is all that matters, so be it....each to his own.

I don't think that that makes for a satisfying and fulfilling life.
 
T

Not to get personal here, but I financed my own college, MBA, and law school with a combination of personal savings, personal earnings (including those of my wife), the GI Bill, employer support, one small bank student loan, one small ($300) personal loan, and $1,200 scholarship from the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency - given to me gladly because I was a Vietnam Fucking Vet. I still am.


I suspect you (and I since we are clearly of the same era) could not have completed school today like we both did back then.

Our GI bill paid better than today's GI bill, PHEAA isn't handing out cash like it once did me (and you I am guessing) and the COST today dwarfs what you and I paid to go to school.

Tuition and Fees 2013-2014 » Office of the University Registrar | Boston University

Schools are three times as expensive as when I went to BU, but few families make three times as much as they made in the late 70s early 80s.

Kids today do not have the same opportunities you and I had. Simple as that.

Not even veterans, mate have the same opportunities.



"Kids today do not have the same opportunities you and I had. Simple as that."

You couldn't be more wrong. You could try to be...but you wouldn't succeed.



Your first error is refusing to consider many other options: that college needs to be a direct step from high school, that it be a four year college immediately, that it need be day only, and that there aren't work/learn institutions that allow a student to leave practically debt free.

Thomas Paine ... What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly
 
Now, if you could only separate education from indoctrination.....

Seems they can't teach you to think for yourself......

I had a certain Sociology professor that hated my guts ... Always scored the essay portion of my tests poorly.
He took off points for anything that was subjective and he could get away with ... No matter how well I supported the conclusions.
I took what I perceived to be the problem to the dean ... She just smiled and said ...

"You will pass either way ... So what is the problem?
Get used to it sweetheart ... There are assholes everywhere and he is not the last one you will have to deal with."


The indoctrination only works if you are stupid enough to accept it ... And then let it affect your decisions in life with counterproductive consequences.

.
 
Now, if you could only separate education from indoctrination.....

Seems they can't teach you to think for yourself......

I had a certain Sociology professor that hated my guts ... Always scored the essay portion of my tests poorly.
He took off points for anything that was subjective and he could get away with ... No matter how well I supported the conclusions.
I took what I perceived to be the problem to the dean ... She just smiled and said ...

"You will pass either way ... So what is the problem?
Get used to it sweetheart ... There are assholes everywhere and he is not the last one you will have to deal with."


The indoctrination only works if you are stupid enough to accept it ... And then let it affect your decisions in life with counterproductive consequences.

.






"...he is not the last one you will have to deal with."



1. "... a teacher at the college recommended psychological therapy to an Arab student who had praised the U.S. Constitution. On December 1st, a professor named Joseph Woolcock suggested a Kuwaiti Arab Muslim student named Ahmad al-Qloushi should seek therapy after the student submitted a paper arguing that the U.S. Constitution was a step forward for America and the world.

... in truth, teacher intimidation goes to the very heart of the Foothill College bureaucracy. It has become commonplace for the school to silence students with ideas or opinions contrary to those of their professors.
Michael Wiesner, “Collegiate Intimidation,” Frontpagemag.com, December 15, 2004.



2. It is not an education when a mid-term exam contains a required essay on the topic “Explain Why President Bush Is A War Criminal,” as did a criminology exam at the University of Northern Colorado, in 2003.
[http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/pdf/saf_promise.pdf]
 
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