Zone1 The Catholic Church is the most misunderstood/vilified "thing" in the world

[hadit]

You forgot the part about how the Catholic Church is the ONE Christ founded... despite all the sinners therein

The Protestants don't have sinners in their "churches"



(That's what they appear to want us all to believe anyhow)

You REALLY need to know what you're talking about before you cast aspersions like that. If you're going to criticize someone, make it a valid criticism. That one is not valid.

 

[hadit]

The thing about Catholics worshipping Mary is really ridiculous. Asking Mary to pray for us is worship? WHO knew?

Catholics follow the pope even when he says heretical things? Right. In other words, Catholics are absolutely incapable of thinking for themselves! Again, Who knew!?

i have some news for antiCatholics. Catholics are like all other human beings. They think, they feel, they pray, they sin... they eat, they sleep, they love their family members (usually) and etc...

true story

So, let's get that one out of the way...

And by the exact same token, Protestants, Anabaptists, etc. are all human as well. What they DO know, though, is that Christ commanded us to pray to the Father in His name, and nowhere in Scripture is it indicated that Mary is capable of hearing millions of prayers simultaneously, or is capable of doing anything about them even if she could hear them all.

 

[1miseryindex]

And by the exact same token, Protestants, Anabaptists, etc. are all human as well. What they DO know, though, is that Christ commanded us to pray to the Father in His name, and nowhere in Scripture is it indicated that Mary is capable of hearing millions of prayers simultaneously, or is capable of doing anything about them even if she could hear them all.

so again

you believe that ALL of God can be crammed into a finite book?

Please

Your biological mother is not mentioned in Scripture either but does that mean you never speak to her?



You believe that ALL of God can be crammed into a finite book

 

[hadit]

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection redeemed the entire world so that all could enter the way of salvation. Salvation is (by God's grace) the call to repentance/the turning away from sin and disobedience and turning to obedience and doing good.

Our sins are not "covered up". We are called away from sin/disobedience to discerning the will of God and following it. This repentance/obedience covers (meaning 'offsets') previous sins and we are assured of forgiveness. Jesus gave his life that we might know/have this.

I believe they ARE covered. See below. Why would He remove our transgressions completely from us, only to throw them back in our face when we stand before Him?

Our obedience and doing the will of God (that he planned) results in righteousness and justification.

We are made righteous by faith, and commanded to do good works BECAUSE we are justified. This is not even controversial. Works by the faithful are commanded to demonstrate faith and to show God's love to the world. IOW, God is NOT going to tell someone, "Yes, I know you confessed your sin, repented of it and had full faith I forgave you and justified you, but you didn't do quite enough of those good works, so away with you".

We cannot continue with sin while ignoring God and the good deeds he has planned for us to do so that we might become the best self we can offer to God. Note that neither of this has anything to do with either redemption or salvation, because redemption and the call to salvation have been accomplished. We are talking about the individual response to redemption and God's call of salvation which is to repent from sin and to do good in place of sin.

That is correct, and I'm glad to see you say that. You sound like a Protestant, admitting that God justifies by faith and we are called to good works as a result.

I understand that you and others may believe with all your heart that all ongoing sins, past, present, and future are already covered up by calling Jesus savior and that there is no need to do anything at all but rest. God will look at Jesus blood, ignore the reality, and wave all who call Jesus savior into heaven.

We believe that we need do nothing to merit salvation, because we can't. We cannot, however, show that faith without loving others and doing good for them. It is a false statement to say that we do not believe we are commanded to do good works, and, just as you do not appreciate non-Catholics disparaging Catholic beliefs without understanding, we do not appreciate that falsehood. We do, however, understand that salvation IS a matter of faith and that we simply cannot earn it. If we could earn salvation and demand it from God, Christ died for nothing.

Personally, I can't imagine anything more heartbreaking--God seeing only himself so he can ignore my reality. I believe God will see my whole reality, love me, and plan in advance good works for me to continue doing, just as Galatians notes he does for us in this life.

You do know, however, that no one is justified by the works of the Law, correct? Let's put it this way, and you have to be honest to hear this:

If works could earn anyone salvation, Jesus died for nothing. You might as well try to swim from California to Hawaii. Some people would get a hundred yards off the beach and drown, some would get a mile offshore and drown, and a handful might make it 50 miles into the ocean before they drowned, but no one is going to make it to Hawaii. Meanwhile, Jesus is standing on the deck of a cruise ship, saying, "Grab a rope and get on board. Let's go to Hawaii. Along the way, show my love to everyone around you. Do good to them".

Psalm 103:
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him.

No, I have no expectation that God is going to review all the sin I've committed. I do expect Him to see the blood of Christ covering me, signifying that HE has already paid my penalty. My works will earn me rewards, but salvation is His completely unearned gift.

 

[hadit]

so again

you believe that ALL of God can be crammed into a finite book?

Please

Your biological mother is not mentioned in Scripture either but does that mean you never speak to her?



You believe that ALL of God can be crammed into a finite book

I believe that when God gives us His Word, we are to check what we hear from other sources against it. I'd like to know, for instance, why you think Mary has somehow become divine and able to hear and handle millions of prayers simultaneously. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any humans are given such capabilities, or in fact, are treated differently from other humans.

 

[1miseryindex]

I believe that when God gives us His Word, we are to check what we hear from other sources against it. I'd like to know, for instance, why you think Mary has somehow become divine and able to hear and handle millions of prayers simultaneously. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates any humans are given such capabilities, or in fact, are treated differently from other humans.

well as the great Catholic Louis Pasteur once said to a Protestant sitting next to him on a train

"You worship God the way you want and I will worship Him the way HE wants"

 

[1miseryindex]

I believe they ARE covered.

It seems to me having your sins and the ugly detritus thereof WASHED completely away

is better than having them "covered"....

just sayin

 

[hadit]

well as the great Catholic Louis Pasteur once said to a Protestant sitting next to him on a train

"You worship God the way you want and I will worship Him the way HE wants"

We do that. We read the Bible, see what Jesus said about worship, then do it accordingly. We do not consult a Pope to see what he thinks or how much he wants us to pay for indulgences or what our local priest wants to know about our private lives, we approach God's throne freely and joyfully, calling Him "Daddy", as Christ said we can.

 

[hadit]

It seems to me having your sins and the ugly detritus thereof WASHED completely away

is better than having them "covered"....

just sayin

As my quote from Psalms indicates, they ARE completely removed.

 

[1miseryindex]

As my quote from Psalms indicates, they ARE completely removed.

it's either covered or removed

which one?

 

[hadit]

it's either covered or removed

which one?

Both. They are covered from view and removed from us so we are blameless in His sight. You might as well argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Any way you look at it, my sin is gone.

 

[1miseryindex]

Both. They are covered from view and removed from us so we a

wrong

it is one or the other

 

[hadit]

wrong

it is one or the other

Whichever term you want to use that indicates God will not hold any of them against us and they are no longer seen.

 

[1miseryindex]

Whichever term you want to use that indicates God will not hold any of them against us and they are no longer seen.

again, presumption is as the sin of divination.

One should not presume upon God's mercy, telling himself that God will overlook this or that when...

only God knows

 

[hadit]

again, presumption is as the sin of divination.

One should not presume upon God's mercy, telling himself that God will overlook this or that when...

only God knows

And He tells us. It is not presumption to take God at His Word and rest on His promises. To do otherwise is to demonstrate a lack of faith, without which it is impossible to please God.

 

[Meriweather]

We are made righteous by faith, and commanded to do good works BECAUSE we are justified.

Not how I see it. Take faith outside of religion. I have faith that by planning for eight hours of sleep each night, I will be well rested the next day. Having faith that eight hours of sleep will result in being well rested brings about nothing unless I actually get eight hours of sleep.

I have faith that if I plan twenty minutes for my drive to work, I will not be late. Having faith in that does not mean I will arrive to work on time by leaving ten minutes later.

In the same way having faith in the Ways Jesus taught does nothing to bring about righteousness if I don't live the Ways Jesus taught.

Faith is not pie-in-the-sky someday. It means trusting/having faith in Jesus' ways to walk, to live, to do all he commanded right now, because what one does results in righteousness.

It is true one must have faith before one acts. For example, I would have to have faith loving others and doing the will of the Father results in a righteous life before I devoted myself to living that kind of life.

 

[Meriweather]

Why would He remove our transgressions completely from us, only to throw them back in our face when we stand before Him?

Repentance of (turning away from) sin is a much different prospect when standing before our Lord. He is not going to throw past transgressions back into our faces when we stand before him, for we have repented of them and changed our ways.

Do you truly see a person standing before the Lord, smugly believing Jesus is blind to all the wrongs one was doing up to the day of their death (and would have continued doing had not death stopped them), oblivious to these wrongful deeds because, after all, Jesus is supposed to be looking at his own blood?

 

[Meriweather]

That is correct, and I'm glad to see you say that. You sound like a Protestant, admitting that God justifies by faith and we are called to good works as a result.

You need to re-read what I said. Faith calls us to good works so that we might be justified/made righteous through this goodness. Do you have faith that by following the Ways Jesus commanded will result in righteousness? Do you whole-heartedly believe faith without good acts is dead and is no faith at all?

 

[Meriweather]

We do, however, understand that salvation IS a matter of faith and that we simply cannot earn it.

We must earn being born. We must earn the air we breathe. We must earn gravity. We must earn the sunset and the sunrise.

If one can see the utter ridiculousness of the above statements, then one sees as Catholics (rolling their eyes) see--the utter ridiculousness of non-Catholics yammering on about the obvious that "salvation cannot be earned."

The Way of salvation is open. No one can close it. As all have been redeemed, all can enter into the Way of salvation. Or...one can choose not to. The Way of Salvation is to love God and our fellow man and to strive with all one's heart to do what is right. That is Kingdom living and entering the Kingdom leads to eternal life.

 

[TheParser]

*** Sadly, I find it very difficult to believe in a God or an afterlife.

*** But in the unlikely event that I wanted to join a church, it would be the Roman Catholic Church.

*** Its rituals help give comfort to those people who are seeking strength to endure this brief horror called life.

*** Its priests still usually wear a collar; some nuns still dress like nuns; the mass means a lot to Catholics; asking saints and guardian angels for help hopefully has some effect.

*** Students that attend the few remaining Catholic schools are guaranteed a good education.