The Catholic Church doesnt teach the substitution theology anymore

zaangalewa

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... So the Catholics now teach that Jews are God's choosen people.
Since ever the Catholic Church "taught" this.

For centuries they taught that Jews were Christ murders ...
Never the Church "taught" this.

If you have a problem with the expression "Jew" in the more Christian part of the bible then replace it with "human being". Mary, Joseph and Jesus were for example Jews. All apostles were Jews. Paulus was a Jew and Roman. And so on and so on ... To find no Jews in the bible is more difficult than to find Jews in the bible. Pontius Pilate and his soldiers were for example no Jews. But who else? Do you remember in the moment someone, who is not a Jew?

 
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Mortimer

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I'm confused as to why so many denie it. Well maybe the church didn't taught it but it was commonly believed right or not? The Kardinal himself said so im confused why some even he denie he says it
 

Meriweather

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Substitution theology means that Jesus brought the new covenant with the Christians as new children of God.
The New Covenant Jesus presented is, Sins are forgiven; repentance (not sacrifice) for the forgiveness of sins. It was never about forming new children of God. Jesus was first and foremost speaking to those of the Jewish faith: Your sins are forgiven. Repentance (turning away from disobedience to obedience to God) for the forgiveness of sins.

Temple authorities wanted Jews to continue to bring sacrifices to the Temple for the forgiveness of sins.

If you are looking for something Church teaching isn't emphasizing as much as it once did is people practicing obedience.
 

zaangalewa

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I didnt know this, I know this since I study theology, there I learned it first. And it seems it is rediscovered since Pope John Paul who went to a Jewish Synagogue in Rome and said "The covenant which never ended". He meant the covenant of God with Abraham and the Jewish People. So the Catholics now teach that Jews are God's choosen people. For centuries they taught that Jews were Christ murders, and that they lost their inheritance to the new covenant the Catholic church. Now they dont teach this anymore. They now teach that Jews are God's choosen people.



My opinion, Im against persecution of Jews, but it is just theology, and we dont need to compromise it to satisfy jews or muslims or anyone. We could as well be more tolerant and accept that Mohammed was the Prophet of God. I think it can be reinterpreted that way though, so probably it is not wrong. But just because we now teach Jews are God's choosen people it wont be more jewish, or the Jews wont like Jesus more. Because Jews still teach something detrimental that Jesus was not a person of God incarnated and didnt brought salvation to mankind. To Jews Jesus is a heretic, and Christianity is pagan because they do not accept the trinity. We could as well get away with the trinity, if Jews dont like it or are offended. Historically the substition theology lead to persecution of Jews, but it doesnt have to. But Im neutral we could reinterpret it that way too, but for centuries it was seen in a other light. I dont consider it neccessary dangerous if we do not persecute Jews.
The Catholic Church never taught that "Jews were Christ murders" or even "murderers". That's bullshit.
They taught Jews rejected Jesus and killed him. They choose Barnabas over Jesus and Pilate washed his hands, and said "His blood is now upon you and your children". That what the Catholic church taught since centuries. At least they taught that Jews lost the inheritance of God, that what the early Christians taught, for example St. Chrysostome on Judaisers. "They have been children and we dogs now they have become dogs and we Children". Now they are closer to Protestants again and the Zionist movement of the Protestants, who made Jerusalem Capitol of Israel. Im strictly against discrimination and persecution of Jews, or anyone else, but Religion is private and can discriminate somehow, like muslims teach that non-muslims will go to hell that is freedom of religion, but they are not allowed to discriminate us physically in this world.
I grew up Catholic and I'm telling you, it's bullshit. Jews were always exalted, including the bit about the "chosen people".
The Kardinal himself said that for centuries the Christians taught something else. You are probably not centuries old so it is possible that you grew up that way. Maybe for some decades now.
I don't see where this Kardinal Schönonborn says that.
Do you understand German? I mean if you do not see where he says that, you are terribly lost case.
He speaks about the wrong conception the new convenant had replaced the old convenant. He speaks about terrible mistakes in history which were also a cause for the holocaust. With textes from the bible he made very clear that the new convenant is not replacing the old convenant - never was replacing it. The convenant with our elder sisters and brothers never ended - the new convenant extends the old convenant. All people on Earth are chosen because of the chosen people. We all have to be thankful to be able to share the love which is in god, our father.

Cardinal Schönborn is in my eyes a very trustworthy person.

 
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impuretrash

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Aww poor Morty. Did the mean people spoil your pathetic attempt at discrediting the history and culture of white europeans again? Well, better luck next time soothing those feelings of inferiority.
 
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Mortimer

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Ok thanks for clarification I don't know why I believed the Church thinks of Christians as new Israel in place of the old one but I thought that is common belief and now I'm surprised if it were the case I would not consider it a discrimination of Jews just like Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted and Mohammed brought the truth to correct it it is their belief and it might be that we do not like it but it is not a discrimination if they do not discriminate us which they still might or might not that's what I'm trying to say
 

zaangalewa

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I didnt know this, I know this since I study theology, there I learned it first. And it seems it is rediscovered since Pope John Paul who went to a Jewish Synagogue in Rome and said "The covenant which never ended". He meant the covenant of God with Abraham and the Jewish People. So the Catholics now teach that Jews are God's choosen people. For centuries they taught that Jews were Christ murders, and that they lost their inheritance to the new covenant the Catholic church. Now they dont teach this anymore. They now teach that Jews are God's choosen people.



My opinion, Im against persecution of Jews, but it is just theology, and we dont need to compromise it to satisfy jews or muslims or anyone. We could as well be more tolerant and accept that Mohammed was the Prophet of God. I think it can be reinterpreted that way though, so probably it is not wrong. But just because we now teach Jews are God's choosen people it wont be more jewish, or the Jews wont like Jesus more. Because Jews still teach something detrimental that Jesus was not a person of God incarnated and didnt brought salvation to mankind. To Jews Jesus is a heretic, and Christianity is pagan because they do not accept the trinity. We could as well get away with the trinity, if Jews dont like it or are offended. Historically the substition theology lead to persecution of Jews, but it doesnt have to. But Im neutral we could reinterpret it that way too, but for centuries it was seen in a other light. I dont consider it neccessary dangerous if we do not persecute Jews.
The Catholic Church never taught that "Jews were Christ murders" or even "murderers". That's bullshit.
They taught Jews rejected Jesus and killed him. They choose Barnabas over Jesus and Pilate washed his hands, and said "His blood is now upon you and your children". That what the Catholic church taught since centuries. At least they taught that Jews lost the inheritance of God, that what the early Christians taught, for example St. Chrysostome on Judaisers. "They have been children and we dogs now they have become dogs and we Children". Now they are closer to Protestants again and the Zionist movement of the Protestants, who made Jerusalem Capitol of Israel. Im strictly against discrimination and persecution of Jews, or anyone else, but Religion is private and can discriminate somehow, like muslims teach that non-muslims will go to hell that is freedom of religion, but they are not allowed to discriminate us physically in this world.
I grew up Catholic and I'm telling you, it's bullshit. Jews were always exalted, including the bit about the "chosen people".
The Kardinal himself said that for centuries the Christians taught something else. You are probably not centuries old so it is possible that you grew up that way. Maybe for some decades now.
I don't see where this Kardinal Schönonborn says that.
Do you understand German? I mean if you do not see where he says that, you are terribly lost case.
Yeah I do. Give me a time stamp if you see it.
It is in the whole sermon, all over the place. You are kind of deaf or dumb if you dont hear it. He even said that there is a sign somewhere which says in latin "jew dogs baptised with fire" and that they were forcefully baptised.
In 1425 200 Jews in Vienna burned themselve together with their synagogue to avoid it to be baptized with force.

But history is much more complex: In 1252 for example Pope Innocent did forbid forced baptisms of Jews.
 

zaangalewa

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Ok thanks for clarification
Do you speak with me?

I don't know why I believed the Church thinks of Christians as new Israel in place of the old one but I thought that is common belief and now I'm surprised if it were the case I would not consider it a discrimination of Jews just like Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted and Mohammed brought the truth to correct it it is their belief and it might be that we do not like it but it is not a discrimination if they do not discriminate us which they still might or might not that's what I'm trying to say
?
 

Penelope

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True Jews and Christians are very different religions. Even Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals are very different.
 

Pogo

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I didnt know this, I know this since I study theology, there I learned it first. And it seems it is rediscovered since Pope John Paul who went to a Jewish Synagogue in Rome and said "The covenant which never ended". He meant the covenant of God with Abraham and the Jewish People. So the Catholics now teach that Jews are God's choosen people. For centuries they taught that Jews were Christ murders, and that they lost their inheritance to the new covenant the Catholic church. Now they dont teach this anymore. They now teach that Jews are God's choosen people.



My opinion, Im against persecution of Jews, but it is just theology, and we dont need to compromise it to satisfy jews or muslims or anyone. We could as well be more tolerant and accept that Mohammed was the Prophet of God. I think it can be reinterpreted that way though, so probably it is not wrong. But just because we now teach Jews are God's choosen people it wont be more jewish, or the Jews wont like Jesus more. Because Jews still teach something detrimental that Jesus was not a person of God incarnated and didnt brought salvation to mankind. To Jews Jesus is a heretic, and Christianity is pagan because they do not accept the trinity. We could as well get away with the trinity, if Jews dont like it or are offended. Historically the substition theology lead to persecution of Jews, but it doesnt have to. But Im neutral we could reinterpret it that way too, but for centuries it was seen in a other light. I dont consider it neccessary dangerous if we do not persecute Jews.
The Catholic Church never taught that "Jews were Christ murders" or even "murderers". That's bullshit.
They taught Jews rejected Jesus and killed him. They choose Barnabas over Jesus and Pilate washed his hands, and said "His blood is now upon you and your children". That what the Catholic church taught since centuries. At least they taught that Jews lost the inheritance of God, that what the early Christians taught, for example St. Chrysostome on Judaisers. "They have been children and we dogs now they have become dogs and we Children". Now they are closer to Protestants again and the Zionist movement of the Protestants, who made Jerusalem Capitol of Israel. Im strictly against discrimination and persecution of Jews, or anyone else, but Religion is private and can discriminate somehow, like muslims teach that non-muslims will go to hell that is freedom of religion, but they are not allowed to discriminate us physically in this world.
I grew up Catholic and I'm telling you, it's bullshit. Jews were always exalted, including the bit about the "chosen people".
The Kardinal himself said that for centuries the Christians taught something else. You are probably not centuries old so it is possible that you grew up that way. Maybe for some decades now.
I don't see where this Kardinal Schönonborn says that.
Do you understand German? I mean if you do not see where he says that, you are terribly lost case.
He speaks about the wrong conception the new convenant had replaced the old convenant. He speaks about terrible mistakes in history which were also a cause for the holocaust. With textes from the bible he made very clear that the new convenant is not replacing the old convenant - never was replacing it. The convenant with our elder sisters and brothers never ended - the new convenant extends the old convenant. All people on Earth are chosen because of the chosen people. We all have to be thankful to be able to share the love which is in god, our father.

Cardinal Schönborn is in my eyes a very trustworthy person.

THANK you. That's how I heard it too.
 

Meriweather

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True Jews and Christians are very different religions. Even Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals are very different.
Yes. I'll also add that individuals belonging to the same denomination often absorb things differently.
 

Pogo

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True Jews and Christians are very different religions. Even Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals are very different.
In the big picture they're really not. It's all middle-eastern based monotheism. Quite a departure from animism/polytheism of Asia, Africa, the Americas or even old Europe.
 
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Mortimer

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My thoughts

If the covenant with the jews never ended does God still work through the chosen people will they built the temple will the 12 tribes of Israel be resurrected will the Jewish messiah arrive? To me that sounds like the Christian zionists who finance Israel I was of the opinion the church teaches that God Jesus Christ fullfill the Jewish covenant the law that Jews no longer play this salvation role that now we are saved by grace not circumcision can someone explain
 

Meriweather

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My thoughts

If the covenant with the jews never ended does God still work through the chosen people will they built the temple will the 12 tribes of Israel be resurrected will the Jewish messiah arrive? To me that sounds like the Christian zionists who finance Israel I was of the opinion the church teaches that God Jesus Christ fullfill the Jewish covenant the law that Jews no longer play this salvation role that now we are saved by grace not circumcision can someone explain
My belief

God works with everyone, wherever they are. He continues to draw people to Himself. The world--not just a denomination--is redeemed.

No reason why everyone cannot look to see if there will be a great Jewish political leader who will be as great as David. Is there a purpose for a Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem?
 

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