Cougarbear
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Yet, when I present the present day restored Church you quickly go to the past skipping over centuries of apostasy and brutal treatment of people.
Zone1 The 17 Points of the True Church of Jesus Christ
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Meriweather
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Consider it may be you who is skipping over things. Bad things happen in each day, every decade, every century, every era. And right in the midst of the bad, there is an even more powerful good. Yes, you delight in finding all the bad some Catholics were doing and happily ignore the great good that was also rising above it all. You also ignore the persecutions by others towards Catholics that was/is also a part of the mess. Through it all, I see, The gates of hell shall not prevail. Through it all you see only the mud, skipping right over the parts where the gates of hell did not prevail.
The great irony is that your own church has been through the mud as well. If you can see where the gates of hell did not prevail over your own church/faith, you might give other faiths/churches that same insight. As much "mud" as I have seen (through research/study) in the history of LDS, I am not blind to the positive nor the work of the Holy Spirit within your Church. As much as I vehemently disagree with some of what you do, I feel no need to tear down your church/faith.
Cougarbear
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So, one of the things you oppose is right in front of you when you read 1Corinthians 15:29, Baptism for the dead was being done by the Church in Paul’s day before the apostasy. Paul had to remind them already that the resurrection is real. The leaders, most likely bishops, were already losing the faith and doctrine of the resurrection. One doctrine and ordinance soon was changed or eliminated until the people no longer followed the Apostles that were left. I even believe those like Thomas may have fallen into apostasy as we know he lacked faith to believe. And, if the writings of Thomas are actual writings, there were definitely changes and dropped doctrine and ordinances.
As far as the really bad things, there was never a time in which the keys of the Priesthood weren’t with an Apostle-Prophet in these Latter Days of the restored Church. We didn’t have one Apostle kill another to be the Prophet like what happened to at least one Pope. Nor did we torture people to get rid of evil spirits. We didn’t burn people at the stakes. Were there bad people that have done bad things? Yes. Did the Brethren make mistakes? Yes. Just like Prophets and Apostles of old. However, we never changed doctrine nor ordinances. We added direction to them line upon line, precept upon precept.
Meriweather
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Delve more deeply. Proof-texting Bible verses and giving them a story is not the same applying a Bible verse to the original story. In addition, Paul noted the practice, but nowhere does he ordain the practice. In fact, Paul's point in Corinthians was the absurdity they practiced as they were denying that the dead would be raised...but then they were turning around and getting baptized for them. (In other words, Paul was jokingly laughing at them--while probably rolling his eyes.) This practice was a local one, noted, but not promoted by the Apostles or the Church. Next, the dead people who were being 'baptized' had not been baptized previously Finally, LDS skips right over Ephesians where it is noted, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Sorry. LDS found a button (proof-texting) and proceeded to sew an elaborate vest onto the button. It's always best to start with the vest, then add the button.
Meriweather
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Exactly. You added.
Cougarbear
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29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul was questioning their belief in the resurrection. He was not questioning the ordinance of baptizing the dead. Very, very clear about his. There’s no other way to explain this.
There is no indication that they were baptizing those who had already been baptized while living. As with today, we baptize for those who died without authority to perform a baptism. I would not need to be baptized after my death unless I was excommunicated which would require another baptism since the other was taken away on the records of the Church and in Heaven.
Jesus went to teach and set up missionary work to those who had died without knowledge or opportunity to accept the true Gospel. Since baptism is required to enter the highest degree of the Kingdom of God. Read first Peter chapters 3 and 4. Why preach and teach them if they don’t have to accept the baptism, repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost? Why would you deny anyone the necessary ordinance of baptism just because they are dead. Logic and reason goes a long ways.
Paul was questioning their belief in the resurrection. He was not questioning the ordinance of baptizing the dead. Very, very clear about his. There’s no other way to explain this.
There is no indication that they were baptizing those who had already been baptized while living. As with today, we baptize for those who died without authority to perform a baptism. I would not need to be baptized after my death unless I was excommunicated which would require another baptism since the other was taken away on the records of the Church and in Heaven.
Jesus went to teach and set up missionary work to those who had died without knowledge or opportunity to accept the true Gospel. Since baptism is required to enter the highest degree of the Kingdom of God. Read first Peter chapters 3 and 4. Why preach and teach them if they don’t have to accept the baptism, repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost? Why would you deny anyone the necessary ordinance of baptism just because they are dead. Logic and reason goes a long ways.
Cougarbear
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Correct. Nothing wrong with that. Jesus added to the Law of Moses a new commandment. He also added the Higher Priesthood of
Melchizedek as well as much more. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.
Meriweather
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Jesus summed up the Law of Moses. He did not add to it.
Meriweather
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Paul dismissed it. There was nothing to address. As I pointed out, it was a quirk within the Corinthian community.
Meriweather
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Once more, you are adding to scripture and even changing it from its original intent.
Zincwarrior
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I am sorry, what?
Cougarbear
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He said “I give you a new commandment” love one another. Duh! And, “The Law of Christ” as well. Good grief.
Cougarbear
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And, share with us in the Bible this new information. You can’t. You can’t read well either. Re-read my post on this.
Meriweather
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And you claim to be of Jewish descent! You truly believe that people were not to love one another and love God before Jesus said those words?
Cougarbear
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Changing intent? Nice try but really pathetic. You have the truth now. What you do with it will be asked at the judgment seat of God. Your scholars are the ones who can’t comprehend what they read. It’s clear. You have to humble yourself and he will clear your brainwashed mind. Just read.
Cougarbear
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You can’t read either? Amazing how Christians are illiterate. 1Corinthians 15:29. Read slowly.
Meriweather
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You forget. I did read your post. However, my studies and research encompass all, including what LDS added, and what they left out. Look, if that works for you, that is not my business. I am simply pointing out why it doesn't work for me and many others. You people are the followers of Joseph Smith. We follow Christ and the Twelve Apostles. You apparently have your own set of Apostles and take note of what they say/command.
You say I don't read your post. The problem is that I have also done detailed research on these issues. I know what has been added. I know what has been left out. Both of those are what you want me to forget each time you present your own post and only focus on your beliefs. Your beliefs are not my beliefs--and with very good reasons. It begins with what is added and what is left out.
Cougarbear
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You believe what you want to. Not the Apostle Paul. I get that there are those who disagree with Paul and therefore don’t accept his teachings. You’re one of them. Too bad.
Zincwarrior
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Sorry, I am not Mormon.
Meriweather
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Wrong. You do jump to some amazing conclusions... Again, I know what you believe and why. At the same time it is obvious you haven't the faintest clue as to to what I believe or how I reached those beliefs.
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