Texas turns to Natural Gas after Wind Energy fails.

[eagle1462010]

As the chart shows, solar costs 3 times the cost of coal and 5 times the cost of Natural Gas...............per kwh

The Coal infrastructure is in place. The Natural Gas infrastructure is not in place. It can be built, but it is being built as the Gov't has targeted coal for destruction.

It figures the gov't favors the highest cost method of producing power.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well it's about time, the most plentiful generation materials is hot air and natural gas of Texicans...Is the Natural Gas tube inserted into the anus for collection?

When natural gas is gone in 80 to 100 years. We will still have wind and solar!

Industrial Solar Panels last 10 years, Wind Turbines 7 years. How will you replace these monstrosities without fossil fuel to build more?

Further, without Natural Gas, how will you turn on your Wind Turbine, they require a constant source of power. How will you pump water to a Solar Plant without natural gas?

How will you run a Steel Foundry to build the replacement panels and parts without Fossil Fuels?

Why do you advocate using more natural gas now to create less power through a secondary source as in Solar and Wind.
Yes Matthew, you advocate using up all the Fossil fuel in short span building Solar and Wind which at best last 10 years, not the 80-100 years you have just made a claim of.

A link for your claims that solar panels last only 10 years, and wind turbines only 7. Otherwise stand as a liar, once again.

 

[Old Rocks]

As the chart shows, solar costs 3 times the cost of coal and 5 times the cost of Natural Gas...............per kwh

The Coal infrastructure is in place. The Natural Gas infrastructure is not in place. It can be built, but it is being built as the Gov't has targeted coal for destruction.

It figures the gov't favors the highest cost method of producing power.

What figures is that you are too lazy to research what is the current costs of energy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0

According to a study by the investment banking firm Lazard, the cost of utility-scale solar energy is as low as 5.6 cents a kilowatt-hour, and wind is as low as 1.4 cents. In comparison, natural gas comes at 6.1 cents a kilowatt-hour on the low end and coal at 6.6 cents. Without subsidies, the firm’s analysis shows, solar costs about 7.2 cents a kilowatt-hour at the low end, with wind at 3.7 cents.

 

[ClosedCaption]

elektra is that another opinion? Solar panels last 25 years on average and wind turbines the same. You know according to something called google.

it would help you a lot if you didn't outright lie about things and pretend you want a real discussion

Google?

elektra is that another opinion? Solar panels last 25 years on average and wind turbines the same. You know according to something called google.

it would help you a lot if you didn't outright lie about things and pretend you want a real discussion

Instead of offering your opinion, which as you state is nothing but a lie, put your money where your mouth is and put that deck of cards that you call Google to use. Otherwise we can just continue to exchange flames.

Let me google that for you

 

[elektra]

A link for your claims that solar panels last only 10 years, and wind turbines only 7. Otherwise stand as a liar, once again.

I made a thread under Solar, to address your concern. Have a good day.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, you created a thread that shows some manufacturors have defective products. Because your Yugo fails, does not mean the Mercedes is going to fail.

 

[eagle1462010]

As the chart shows, solar costs 3 times the cost of coal and 5 times the cost of Natural Gas...............per kwh

The Coal infrastructure is in place. The Natural Gas infrastructure is not in place. It can be built, but it is being built as the Gov't has targeted coal for destruction.

It figures the gov't favors the highest cost method of producing power.

What figures is that you are too lazy to research what is the current costs of energy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0

According to a study by the investment banking firm Lazard, the cost of utility-scale solar energy is as low as 5.6 cents a kilowatt-hour, and wind is as low as 1.4 cents. In comparison, natural gas comes at 6.1 cents a kilowatt-hour on the low end and coal at 6.6 cents. Without subsidies, the firm’s analysis shows, solar costs about 7.2 cents a kilowatt-hour at the low end, with wind at 3.7 cents.

Cost of Solar Panels

Current data about the cost of solar power have some inconsistency for a variety of reasons.

These reasons include a lack of standardized reporting due to the relative infancy of the solar industry, geographical differences in sun exposure, geographical differences in costs of equipment and solar panel installation, and different government policies.installed capacity in Germany, $4.70 per watt in Japan, and ranging from $5-$10.50 per watt across the United States [1][3]. The figures are for residential (2-5kW) systems, and before any government incentives.

On that basis, a 2Kw capacity solar panel system would cost between $9,400 and $21,000 installed – depending on your location.majorly turbulent year for the solar industry, with early indications showing average solar panel prices dropped by 50%.



Solar Power Cost Per kWh


A useful figure to use when looking at solar is cost per kWh, as this can be directly compared to your current power bill. A National Renewable Energy Laboratory report spanning 7 U.S states, gives a levelised cost of solar of between $0.28 and $0.46 per kWh for residential solar systems. This excludes the U.S federal tax credit and other subsidies [3].

Solar costs per kWh hour are calculated by dividing the total expected cost of a system (modules, inverters, installation etc) by the expected total energy output. Obviously there isn’t an ongoing per kWh cost as the electricity trickles in.

 

[eagle1462010]

Once solar panels are installed, the price is now free...........so my main question is the calculation methods to determine the time period used to factor the overall cost of a system over the lifespan of the system.

If a company says it is good for 25 years, and uses this data for the cost per Kwh hour the data will be skewed............

Those who push the product will give it high marks............It all depends on how you rate the life of the panels and system.

I priced a 10 kva system, installed for about 35k a little over a year ago...........that didn't include the battery bank...................according to the article the low end is $5 bucks a watt.............or 50k for the system. that's not a cheap system unless it lasts you a lifetime.

 

[eagle1462010]

EIA - Electricity Data

shows the average price per kwh across the country.

average residential at 12.46 cents

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, if you priced a 10 kw system for 35 K a year ago, you were having someone else install it. That same system, doing the installation yourself would cost about 13.5 K. And that includes wracking.

Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 3,120 Watts 3,120/2,827 Included up to 424 kWh 12 1 SMA Sunny Boy 3000TL-US-22 1890400
$5,353
Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 5,200 Watts 5,200/4,712 Included up to 707 kWh 20 1 SMA Sunny Boy 5000TL-US-22 1890405
$8,443
Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 6,500 Watts - Pallet Special
6,500/5,890 Included up to 884 kWh 25 1 SMA Sunny Boy 6000TL-US-22 1890406
$9,685
Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 6,760 Watts 6,760/6,126 Included up to 919 kWh 26 1 SMA Sunny Boy 7000TL-US-22 1890409
$10,738
Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 10,140 Watts
10,140/9,188 Included up to 1,378 kWh 39 1 SMA Sunny Boy 9000TL-US-12 1891416
$13,509
Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 13,520 Watts
13,520/12,251 Included up to 1,838 kWh 52 2 SMA Sunny Boy 7000TL-US-22 1890429
$19,488
Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System 16,900 Watts
16,900/15,314 Included up to 2,297 kWh 65 1 SMA SB7000TL-US-12
1 SMA SB9000TL-US-12 1890434
$23,260
Solar Sky Astronergy Grid-tie Solar System 20,280 watts 20,280/18,377 Included up to 2,757 kWh 78 2 SMA Sunny Boy 9000TL-US-12 1890439
$26,911
1. STC is Standard Test conditions or factory ratings. PTC is PV-USA Test Ratings which are closer to real world conditions. Your unique conditions will affect your system output. Read more...
2. What is a kilowatt hour (kWh) and how to find it on your power bill.
3. Please be aware that these prices may change daily. Call for current pricing: 1 (800) 472-1142.

sales@wholesalesolar.com .

Solar Sky Gridtie System Array Size Watts
STC / PTC [1] Racking Monthly Output based on 5 sun hours per day [2] # of Solar
Panels SMA
Inverter Product
Number Price [3]
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 3,360 Watts
3,360/3,014 Included up to 452 kWh 12 1 SMA Sunny Boy 3000TL-US-22 1891400
$6,488
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 5,600 Watts
5,600/5,024 Included up to 754 kWh 20 1 SMA Sunny Boy 5000TL-US-22 1891405
$10,290
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 7,280 Watts
7,280/6,531 Included up to 980 kWh 26 1 SMA Sunny Boy 7000TL-US-22 1891409
$13,290
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 10,920 Watts
10,920/9,797 Included up to 1,470 kWh 39 1 SMA Sunny Boy 10000TL-US-12 1891417
$17,030
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 14,560 Watts
14,560/13,062 Included up to 1,959 kWh 52 2 SMA Sunny Boy 7000TL-US-22 1891419
$24,020
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 18,200 Watts
18,200/16,328 Included up to 2,449 kWh 65 2 SMA SB9000TL-US-12 1891424
$28,530
Solar Sky SolarWorld Gridtie System 21,840 Watts
21,840/19,594 Included up to 2,713 kWh 78 2 SMA Sunny Boy 10000TL-US-12 1891429
$33,472
1. STC is Standard Test conditions or factory ratings. PTC is PV-USA Test Ratings which are closer to real world conditions. Your unique conditions will affect your system output. Read more...
2. What is a kilowatt hour (kWh) and how to find it on your power bill.
3. Please be aware that these prices may change daily. Call for current pricing: 1 (800) 472-1142.

Call Wholesale Solar
to order:
1 (800) 472-1142

This is a grid parallel system and does not have to have batteries. Batteries would be a bad investment at the present time, within five years or less, much better batteries for home systems will be on the market for less than you can get the present ones.

 

[Old Rocks]

Also, as noted in the OP, we are speaking of utility solar, much cheaper when you are buying by the megawattage.

 

[Old Rocks]

Eagle, that is solar thermal, PV solar is down around 7.2 cent now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0

According to a study by the investment banking firm Lazard, the cost of utility-scale solar energy is as low as 5.6 cents a kilowatt-hour, and wind is as low as 1.4 cents. In comparison, natural gas comes at 6.1 cents a kilowatt-hour on the low end and coal at 6.6 cents. Without subsidies, the firm’s analysis shows, solar costs about 7.2 cents a kilowatt-hour at the low end, with wind at 3.7 cents.

 

[eagle1462010]

The system prices have gone down................But I wouldn't install the system without the batteries as you need to store power for use at night.

The battery bank and racks bring the system up to about 22k to 25k......

I've looked into this before, and have decided not to proceed...........I've actually bought the videos and manuals to build my own...........but by the time you buy all the stuff it wasn't worth building my own.....................

Also, to power a house you have to go higher than your usage in Watts as you must have the battery power at night............These systems don't produce power at night.

I still look at it, and if I see the feasible cost versus install I will probably eventually put in a whole house system.

 

[eagle1462010]

Okay, now my memory of whole grid comes back to play..........Looked at the Inverter that comes with the 10k system...............Maximum output current of 37.5 amps...........which is why I stated that your system would have to be larger than a normal KW rated generator or power supply............

A 5 ton a/c unit will draw roughly 30 amps continuous when running and is considered a continuous load.......

Which uses most of the inverters capacity when running............which is why you must go to higher KW's on your panels to produce standard power for a whole house system.

 

[HenryBHough]

I could make a good case for spending serious money on solar under certain conditions. This is for instances where "the grid" is available; much different for remote locations where having powerlines strung might be impossible or prohibitively expensive.

1. Age. Are you young enough that you can recoup your up-front costs in your lifetime.

2. System durability. Are you sure the system will not have broken down beyond economical repair before your initial costs are covered.

3. Personal stability. No negative there; most people move several times through their middle years. Bigger house; smaller house; change of jobs; extended family needs. It is proven impossible to recoup initial investment (even residual) when selling a solar equipped house with one not so equipped. A little more? Yes. Full recovery? Nope.

4. Personal ability/skill to maintain the system? Even if just to get up on the roof and clear the snow off the panels in season and clean them in other seasons. Not something that has to be done often but it does have to be done. If lacking the ability, willingness to undertake the hassle of finding somebody to do it and pay them appropriately.

Having worked with solar and wind systems since 1996 I can say that solar systems (and I'm just talking electrical, no hot water, etc.) ARE practical under the right circumstances. I can also say that wind machines are fun but more demanding. Again, experience, most solar systems I've seen give very good long term service. ALL wind systems have suffered badly from mechanical failure.

Others may have different experience and I hope we'll hear from them. But from experience; not rah-rah-rah-buy-mine websites.

 

[eagle1462010]

I could make a good case for spending serious money on solar under certain conditions. This is for instances where "the grid" is available; much different for remote locations where having powerlines strung might be impossible or prohibitively expensive.

1. Age. Are you young enough that you can recoup your up-front costs in your lifetime.

2. System durability. Are you sure the system will not have broken down beyond economical repair before your initial costs are covered.

3. Personal stability. No negative there; most people move several times through their middle years. Bigger house; smaller house; change of jobs; extended family needs. It is proven impossible to recoup initial investment (even residual) when selling a solar equipped house with one not so equipped. A little more? Yes. Full recovery? Nope.

4. Personal ability/skill to maintain the system? Even if just to get up on the roof and clear the snow off the panels in season and clean them in other seasons. Not something that has to be done often but it does have to be done. If lacking the ability, willingness to undertake the hassle of finding somebody to do it and pay them appropriately.

Having worked with solar and wind systems since 1996 I can say that solar systems (and I'm just talking electrical, no hot water, etc.) ARE practical under the right circumstances. I can also say that wind machines are fun but more demanding. Again, experience, most solar systems I've seen give very good long term service. ALL wind systems have suffered badly from mechanical failure.

Others may have different experience and I hope we'll hear from them. But from experience; not rah-rah-rah-buy-mine websites.

I'm an electrician, installing or maintaining, and or trouble shooting the system is no problem. I have installed small panel mount systems at work all with small battery banks. As it was cheaper to put in the solar versus the long runs of conduit and cable to power the area up.

On a normal house, say 2400 square foot, with a 4 ton unit and standard appliances..............what size system would be needed to be independent of the grid.............and what size battery rack would you need for when the sun is down................

Under my last post I looked a the 10k grid with 40 panels..............which is a lot of surface area...........I again noticed the maximum output of the inverter supplied is 37.7 amps..............I used a 5 ton a/c unit for amperage draw example........which would use 75% of the power when running................foot note a Horse power per ton of a/c could be used to get the ball park amps for a/c unit per ton.............
746 watts per horse............

It looks to me that you would nearly have to double the wattage of the solar grid to get amperages capable of sustaining the home load.

Any input on that...........

 

[eagle1462010]

Equipment Wattage
Baseboard Heater 1,600
Clothes Dryer 4,900
Dishwasher 1,200
Frost-Free Deep Freeze 500
Frost-Free Refrigerator 615
Furnace 500
Garbage Disposal 450 to 950
Oven 4,000 to 8,000
Range 4,000 to 5,000
Room Heater 1,350
Standard Deep Freeze 400
Standard Refrigerator 325
Washing Machine 500
Water Heater 2,000 to 5,000

Home Appliance Amp Reference Chart Electric Safety Georgia Power

http://www.kingslocal.net/Departments/Business/Documents/Appliance_energy_consumption.pdf

site shows general amperage draws

 

[Old Rocks]

Good figures, Eagle. But here in Oregon, the climate is such that, for most areas, you don't need the airconditioner on full blast for months at a time. In fact, for the are most heavily populated area, about two months out of the year, and partial capacity for most of those months. If you are grid parallel, a battery backup is not needed. However, given the present progress being made in batteries, in five years I expect that a backup will be on par with the cost of an ICE generating system. That would make the backup feasable even in a grid parallel situation.

Since you are an electrician, you would have zero problems doing your own installation. In five years, the panels will be far less costly than they are today, and probably nearly double the efficiency. Kind of like upgrading a computer. Balance of what you need now, versus what you are going to need later, knowing the price for more power will be much less later.

 

[elektra]

Also, as noted in the OP, we are speaking of utility solar, much cheaper when you are buying by the megawattage.

Trillions of Dollars is much cheaper?

 

[elektra]

Good figures, Eagle. But here in Oregon, the climate is such that, for most areas, you don't need the airconditioner on full blast for months at a time. In fact, for the are most heavily populated area, about two months out of the year, and partial capacity for most of those months. If you are grid parallel, a battery backup is not needed. However, given the present progress being made in batteries, in five years I expect that a backup will be on par with the cost of an ICE generating system. That would make the backup feasable even in a grid parallel situation.

Since you are an electrician, you would have zero problems doing your own installation. In five years, the panels will be far less costly than they are today, and probably nearly double the efficiency. Kind of like upgrading a computer. Balance of what you need now, versus what you are going to need later, knowing the price for more power will be much less later.

So, all installed Solar is obsolete, which needs to be replaced in 5 years or less, but cost $70K! The computer is replaced for $500.