Texas Open-Carry, Boys and their Deadly Toys.

[Jarlaxle]

Forty four states allow open carry --- so, now it's forty five. Sounds like the will of the people to me.

The will of the people is for much stricter gun control, and we've been blocked from having it for decades.

Actually, you are wrong, again....latest surveys show people support 2nd Amendment rights......

Surveys also show they support background checks and limits on large capacity magazines

Surveys also show they support background checks and limits on large capacity magazines

Nice try but you are wrong....they support those things when you ask people who don't know what those mean....and that they don't do anything to stop crime with guns....ask them real questions on those stupid laws and let's see what they answer.....

Or...you could ask Baltimore if those things work...they have universal background checks, even at gun shows, no gun show loophole, and 10 round magazine limits....are they workig there?

Case in point, the people don't get what they want, when it comes to gun control.

No matter how many times you regurgitate that, it's STILL BULLSHIT!

 

[2aguy]

Tell that to the people who were killed at Gabbys talkfest. All it would have taken is one CCW holder, in the audience, and the assault would have been terminated after one magazine was fired.

But no, you can never think that far.

It was stopped after one magazine and by unarmed people.

The gabby giffords shooter was stopped by pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people involved....if they hadn't been lucky though there were at least 2 concealed carriers there who were ready to stop the guy.....

The concealed carry owners said they would have shot the wrong person. It's too bad the shooter didn't have a smaller magazine, lives would have been saved. Luck is involved whenever a criminal is stopped. Your armed defenders are lucky the criminal decides not to kill them as they almost always have a chance to.

No....you are lying again brain.....here...I'll get the actual accounts

I never lie.

It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.

Concealed Carrying Bystander Nearly Killed Innocent Man During Tucson Shooting Firedoglake

Brain....you of course missed the point......he saw the guy with a gun and did not shoot him.....in the middle of the chaos he calmly took control of the guy he thought might be the shooter and took control...again....he did not shoot him and calmly dealt with the situation...

so, it was pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people that stopped the attack....the shooter actually shot one of the men who tackled him...and it was pure,dumb luck that the shot just grazed his head and the shooter advanced within reach....the old lady who grabbed the magazine actually laid on the ground to try to appear less of a target...she did not advance on the shooter or do anything to actually stop the attack....when the first guy helped,tackle the shooter, he fell in front of the old lady...within her reach and she grabbed the magazine...pure, dumb luck...

The only one showing an ability to deal with the attacker were the two concealed carriers who were ready to shoot....and again, did not shoot because pure dumb luck had resolved the situation..

 

[2aguy]

Tell that to the people who were killed at Gabbys talkfest. All it would have taken is one CCW holder, in the audience, and the assault would have been terminated after one magazine was fired.

But no, you can never think that far.

It was stopped after one magazine and by unarmed people.

The gabby giffords shooter was stopped by pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people involved....if they hadn't been lucky though there were at least 2 concealed carriers there who were ready to stop the guy.....

The concealed carry owners said they would have shot the wrong person. It's too bad the shooter didn't have a smaller magazine, lives would have been saved. Luck is involved whenever a criminal is stopped. Your armed defenders are lucky the criminal decides not to kill them as they almost always have a chance to.

The Tucson Atrocity Joe Zamudio s StoryAmerican Handgunner American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....then he was tackled and literally fell at her feet...she did nothing to actually stop him...he fell right in front of her when she had completely given up trying to save herself.....


from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

More proof you are wrong from your article.

Zamudio continued, “I reached into my pocket, put my hand on my pistol, took the safety off, and ran down the sidewalk (toward the shooting scene). That’s when I saw a group of people wrestling with (Loughner). The first thing I focused on was the man closest to me. His back was to me. He raised up with a Glock in his hand, open, magazine sticking out. In that second I decided that because the gun was open, I didn’t have to shoot him. I immediately grabbed him by the wrist, turned the gun in toward him, told him to drop the weapon. He did.

“Even as he was dropping the gun, everyone yelled, ‘It’s not him, it’s not him!’ I said, ‘Put it down.’ I was hearing people yell, ‘I’ll kill you, you motherf***er, I’ll kill you.’ When the man dropped the gun I said, ‘Put your foot on it, make us all feel safe,’ and he did. This turned out to be Roger Sulzgeber, one of my personal heroes. He and Bill Badger had grabbed Loughner and pulled him to the ground. Apparently the gun had jammed, either misfired or didn’t feed, and Loughner was trying to reload again when they grabbed him. There was an empty mag on ground, a full one that mis-fed in the gun, and another full magazine Patricia Maisch got away from him.”

thanks,for backing up my point brain....see how controlled he was....he didn't shoot because he didn't have to, and he restrained the guy calmly to figure out the situation....again...HE DID NOT SHOOT the other concealed carrier guy..

And Bill Badger was the guy who was shot in the head, turned his head just enough to keep from dying, and the shooter advanced close enough...because he thought the guy he shot in the head was dead..........to be,tackled....pure ******* dumb luck....and then he fell right in front of the old lady who had simply laid on the ground praying the guy would ignore her....again, pure dumb luck...

 

[Jarlaxle]

The purpose of a gun is to save the life of the one using it....and in America, in 54% of self defense encounters they never fire a shot.......

Utter nonsense. Gun nut dogma. TY.

No gun was ever invented for self-defense, not a one.

No matter how many times you spew that, it's still a lie.

 

[2aguy]

So brain...your self,defense strategy comes in three techniques....

1) hope the violent killer is kind....

2) hope the violent killer is incompetent

3) hope that you have pure, dumb luck working for you...

Another aspect of the pure, dumb luck that saved lives at the Gifford shooting....he fired within a crowd, meaning he allowed his victims to be close to him...and then advanced on someone he thought he had already killed.....pure, dumb luck and incompetence on his part...

so 2 out of 3 of your techniques worked......

 

[2aguy]

The purpose of a gun is to save the life of the one using it....and in America, in 54% of self defense encounters they never fire a shot.......

Utter nonsense. Gun nut dogma. TY.

No gun was ever invented for self-defense, not a one.

No matter how many times you spew that, it's still a lie.

Yes, the purpose of a gun is to save or preserve the life of the user......all guns...

 

[Brain357]

It was stopped after one magazine and by unarmed people.

The gabby giffords shooter was stopped by pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people involved....if they hadn't been lucky though there were at least 2 concealed carriers there who were ready to stop the guy.....

The concealed carry owners said they would have shot the wrong person. It's too bad the shooter didn't have a smaller magazine, lives would have been saved. Luck is involved whenever a criminal is stopped. Your armed defenders are lucky the criminal decides not to kill them as they almost always have a chance to.

No....you are lying again brain.....here...I'll get the actual accounts

I never lie.

It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.

Concealed Carrying Bystander Nearly Killed Innocent Man During Tucson Shooting Firedoglake

Brain....you of course missed the point......he saw the guy with a gun and did not shoot him.....in the middle of the chaos he calmly took control of the guy he thought might be the shooter and took control...again....he did not shoot him and calmly dealt with the situation...

so, it was pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people that stopped the attack....the shooter actually shot one of the men who tackled him...and it was pure,dumb luck that the shot just grazed his head and the shooter advanced within reach....the old lady who grabbed the magazine actually laid on the ground to try to appear less of a target...she did not advance on the shooter or do anything to actually stop the attack....when the first guy helped,tackle the shooter, he fell in front of the old lady...within her reach and she grabbed the magazine...pure, dumb luck...

The only one showing an ability to deal with the attacker were the two concealed carriers who were ready to shoot....and again, did not shoot because pure dumb luck had resolved the situation..

The point is I was right. You called me a liar when I said he would have shot the wrong guy. I was right, you were wrong.

 

[Brain357]

So brain...your self,defense strategy comes in three techniques....

1) hope the violent killer is kind....

2) hope the violent killer is incompetent

3) hope that you have pure, dumb luck working for you...

Another aspect of the pure, dumb luck that saved lives at the Gifford shooting....he fired within a crowd, meaning he allowed his victims to be close to him...and then advanced on someone he thought he had already killed.....pure, dumb luck and incompetence on his part...

so 2 out of 3 of your techniques worked......

And as I have proven before the armed defender relies on all of those.

 

[Brain357]

The purpose of a gun is to save the life of the one using it....and in America, in 54% of self defense encounters they never fire a shot.......

Utter nonsense. Gun nut dogma. TY.

No gun was ever invented for self-defense, not a one.

No matter how many times you spew that, it's still a lie.

Yes, the purpose of a gun is to save or preserve the life of the user......all guns...

Who is killed by guns:
20,000 suicides per year gun owner
8,500 homicides per year innocent person
500 accidental deaths per year innocent person often gun owner
230 criminals in defense.

Yes great job preserving life of the user.

 

[Brain357]

So brain...your self,defense strategy comes in three techniques....

1) hope the violent killer is kind....

2) hope the violent killer is incompetent

3) hope that you have pure, dumb luck working for you...

Another aspect of the pure, dumb luck that saved lives at the Gifford shooting....he fired within a crowd, meaning he allowed his victims to be close to him...and then advanced on someone he thought he had already killed.....pure, dumb luck and incompetence on his part...

so 2 out of 3 of your techniques worked......

What we learned from this shooting.
1. Shooter stopped by unarmed heroes.
2. Armed guy would have shot wrong person.
3. Mag limits would have saved lives.

 

[2aguy]

The gabby giffords shooter was stopped by pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people involved....if they hadn't been lucky though there were at least 2 concealed carriers there who were ready to stop the guy.....

The concealed carry owners said they would have shot the wrong person. It's too bad the shooter didn't have a smaller magazine, lives would have been saved. Luck is involved whenever a criminal is stopped. Your armed defenders are lucky the criminal decides not to kill them as they almost always have a chance to.

No....you are lying again brain.....here...I'll get the actual accounts

I never lie.

It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.

Concealed Carrying Bystander Nearly Killed Innocent Man During Tucson Shooting Firedoglake

Brain....you of course missed the point......he saw the guy with a gun and did not shoot him.....in the middle of the chaos he calmly took control of the guy he thought might be the shooter and took control...again....he did not shoot him and calmly dealt with the situation...

so, it was pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people that stopped the attack....the shooter actually shot one of the men who tackled him...and it was pure,dumb luck that the shot just grazed his head and the shooter advanced within reach....the old lady who grabbed the magazine actually laid on the ground to try to appear less of a target...she did not advance on the shooter or do anything to actually stop the attack....when the first guy helped,tackle the shooter, he fell in front of the old lady...within her reach and she grabbed the magazine...pure, dumb luck...

The only one showing an ability to deal with the attacker were the two concealed carriers who were ready to shoot....and again, did not shoot because pure dumb luck had resolved the situation..

The point is I was right. You called me a liar when I said he would have shot the wrong guy. I was right, you were wrong.

No....he didn't shoot the wrong guy and he could have....you are wrong.......what part of "He didn't shoot the guy he saw with the gun" don't you get.......the guy was right in front of him, he saw the guy wasn't a threat, which was confirmed by the bystanders who started yelling he wasn't a threat, and then he calmly disarmed the guy just in case.......you were wrong....he could have shot the guy when he first saw him pointing the gun and he didn't....you gun grabbers have no sense of reality.....

 

[2aguy]

The purpose of a gun is to save the life of the one using it....and in America, in 54% of self defense encounters they never fire a shot.......

Utter nonsense. Gun nut dogma. TY.

No gun was ever invented for self-defense, not a one.

No matter how many times you spew that, it's still a lie.

Yes, the purpose of a gun is to save or preserve the life of the user......all guns...

Who is killed by guns:
20,000 suicides per year gun owner
8,500 homicides per year innocent person
500 accidental deaths per year innocent person often gun owner
230 criminals in defense.

Yes great job preserving life of the user.

And of course you forgot the rest of the stats...the life saving stat......Each year Americans use guns, on average to stop or prevent violent criminal attack 2 million times a year, based on 40 years of research, conducted by both government and private researchers, many of whom are anti gun researchers.....and of the 16 out of 19 studies on defensive gun use, that I have access to, not one number is lower than760,000 times, and the average of the non military, non police included studies is 2 million times a year........

You can add brain and 2 million crimes stopped and lives saved is more than 8,454 gun murders in 2013 as per the FBI table 8........

And again, gun murders, and gun accidental deaths are going down, not up as more people own and carry guns for self defense....

So...over 320 million Americans, over 320 million guns in private hands, over 90 million homes with guns and over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

and yet only 8,454 gun murders, concentrated in small, multi block, crime ridden areas in democrat controlled cities (New York is getting worse with the new democrat mayor).....

And only 505 accidental gun deaths in 2013, and still going down.....

And again...suicides don't count since the rest of the world, if they have access to guns or not use rope more than guns.....

 

[Brain357]

The concealed carry owners said they would have shot the wrong person. It's too bad the shooter didn't have a smaller magazine, lives would have been saved. Luck is involved whenever a criminal is stopped. Your armed defenders are lucky the criminal decides not to kill them as they almost always have a chance to.

No....you are lying again brain.....here...I'll get the actual accounts

I never lie.

It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.

Concealed Carrying Bystander Nearly Killed Innocent Man During Tucson Shooting Firedoglake

Brain....you of course missed the point......he saw the guy with a gun and did not shoot him.....in the middle of the chaos he calmly took control of the guy he thought might be the shooter and took control...again....he did not shoot him and calmly dealt with the situation...

so, it was pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people that stopped the attack....the shooter actually shot one of the men who tackled him...and it was pure,dumb luck that the shot just grazed his head and the shooter advanced within reach....the old lady who grabbed the magazine actually laid on the ground to try to appear less of a target...she did not advance on the shooter or do anything to actually stop the attack....when the first guy helped,tackle the shooter, he fell in front of the old lady...within her reach and she grabbed the magazine...pure, dumb luck...

The only one showing an ability to deal with the attacker were the two concealed carriers who were ready to shoot....and again, did not shoot because pure dumb luck had resolved the situation..

The point is I was right. You called me a liar when I said he would have shot the wrong guy. I was right, you were wrong.

No....he didn't shoot the wrong guy and he could have....you are wrong.......what part of "He didn't shoot the guy he saw with the gun" don't you get.......the guy was right in front of him, he saw the guy wasn't a threat, which was confirmed by the bystanders who started yelling he wasn't a threat, and then he calmly disarmed the guy just in case.......you were wrong....he could have shot the guy when he first saw him pointing the gun and he didn't....you gun grabbers have no sense of reality.....

Didn't say he did shoot the wrong guy. I said he would have shot the wrong guy. And that is clear from both the links we posted. I was right, you were wrong.

 

[2aguy]

So brain...your self,defense strategy comes in three techniques....

1) hope the violent killer is kind....

2) hope the violent killer is incompetent

3) hope that you have pure, dumb luck working for you...

Another aspect of the pure, dumb luck that saved lives at the Gifford shooting....he fired within a crowd, meaning he allowed his victims to be close to him...and then advanced on someone he thought he had already killed.....pure, dumb luck and incompetence on his part...

so 2 out of 3 of your techniques worked......

What we learned from this shooting.
1. Shooter stopped by unarmed heroes.
2. Armed guy would have shot wrong person.
3. Mag limits would have saved lives.

What we learned from this shooting.
1. Shooter stopped by unarmed heroes.
2. Armed guy would have shot wrong person.
3. Mag limits would have saved lives

What you failed to learn from the shooting since you are a gun grabber...

1) the unarmed heroes got lucky....pure dumb luck......had he not just grazed Bill Badger and still walked forward he would not have been tackled, and had the old lady, who simply laid on the ground in the hope he would ignore her and kill someone else, not had him fall down right in front of her...how close....so close she just had to reach out and grab the magazine...

Pure ******* dumb luck on all the parts of the unarmed heroes...you may want to put your life in the hands of pure dumb luck.....the rest of us don't...

2) The two concealed carriers were ready to take over had pure dumb luck not happened.......and the one concealed carrier who thought the other guy may have been another shooter did not shoot....again...in the middle of the chaos of this shooting...he saw a man with a gun, recognized he wasn't the problem.....and did not shoot him, but calmly disarmed him just to be sure....so you are wrong brain...and had pure dumb luck failed, he would have been able to stop the shooter

Because he had a gun of his own........

3) Magazine limits.....the guy was willing to commit mass murder and you think a law about magazine limits would stop him...

First...the Santa barbara shooter and the famous Columbine shooters just used 10 round magazines...the Santa Barbara shooter was following Californias magazine limit law..and he still killed people.....

And in France, a country with no gun stores, with stricter gun control than the United States...a gun grabbers paradise...3 terrorists, 2 on a government terrorist watch list ,and 1 a convicted felon, easily bought fully automatic rifles.....30 round magazines, hand grenades, pistols and a rocket propelled grenade, and they easily crossed an international border 2 times into another country with strict gun control and bought all those weapons in that country....again, with strict gun control laws........and not one gun control measure in France stopped them.....

And again, that same week in France, masked gunmen, again with fully automatic rifles and 30 round magazines...all illegal in France, a country with stricter gun control than we have, shot up a Marseilles neighborhood just before the prime minister of France was going to give a speech on crime prevention...a week after the terrorist attack on the cartoonists..

So no law on magazine limits in this country will stop violent monsters from getting those magazines if they want them.....ever......

 

[Brain357]

The purpose of a gun is to save the life of the one using it....and in America, in 54% of self defense encounters they never fire a shot.......

Utter nonsense. Gun nut dogma. TY.

No gun was ever invented for self-defense, not a one.

No matter how many times you spew that, it's still a lie.

Yes, the purpose of a gun is to save or preserve the life of the user......all guns...

Who is killed by guns:
20,000 suicides per year gun owner
8,500 homicides per year innocent person
500 accidental deaths per year innocent person often gun owner
230 criminals in defense.

Yes great job preserving life of the user.

And of course you forgot the rest of the stats...the life saving stat......Each year Americans use guns, on average to stop or prevent violent criminal attack 2 million times a year, based on 40 years of research, conducted by both government and private researchers, many of whom are anti gun researchers.....and of the 16 out of 19 studies on defensive gun use, that I have access to, not one number is lower than760,000 times, and the average of the non military, non police included studies is 2 million times a year........

You can add brain and 2 million crimes stopped and lives saved is more than 8,454 gun murders in 2013 as per the FBI table 8........

And again, gun murders, and gun accidental deaths are going down, not up as more people own and carry guns for self defense....

So...over 320 million Americans, over 320 million guns in private hands, over 90 million homes with guns and over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

and yet only 8,454 gun murders, concentrated in small, multi block, crime ridden areas in democrat controlled cities (New York is getting worse with the new democrat mayor).....

And only 505 accidental gun deaths in 2013, and still going down.....

And again...suicides don't count since the rest of the world, if they have access to guns or not use rope more than guns.....

Those numbers are all fantasy. None of them are supported by reality. And with 8,500 homicides each year gun owners who are a minority of the population can only be saving the lives of some number under that. Sorry but that's a fact.

Who is killed by guns:
20,000 suicides per year gun owner
8,500 homicides per year innocent person
500 accidental deaths per year innocent person often gun owner
230 criminals in defense.

Those are actual stats, not your survey fantasy land.

 

[2aguy]

No....you are lying again brain.....here...I'll get the actual accounts

I never lie.

It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.

Concealed Carrying Bystander Nearly Killed Innocent Man During Tucson Shooting Firedoglake

Brain....you of course missed the point......he saw the guy with a gun and did not shoot him.....in the middle of the chaos he calmly took control of the guy he thought might be the shooter and took control...again....he did not shoot him and calmly dealt with the situation...

so, it was pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people that stopped the attack....the shooter actually shot one of the men who tackled him...and it was pure,dumb luck that the shot just grazed his head and the shooter advanced within reach....the old lady who grabbed the magazine actually laid on the ground to try to appear less of a target...she did not advance on the shooter or do anything to actually stop the attack....when the first guy helped,tackle the shooter, he fell in front of the old lady...within her reach and she grabbed the magazine...pure, dumb luck...

The only one showing an ability to deal with the attacker were the two concealed carriers who were ready to shoot....and again, did not shoot because pure dumb luck had resolved the situation..

The point is I was right. You called me a liar when I said he would have shot the wrong guy. I was right, you were wrong.

No....he didn't shoot the wrong guy and he could have....you are wrong.......what part of "He didn't shoot the guy he saw with the gun" don't you get.......the guy was right in front of him, he saw the guy wasn't a threat, which was confirmed by the bystanders who started yelling he wasn't a threat, and then he calmly disarmed the guy just in case.......you were wrong....he could have shot the guy when he first saw him pointing the gun and he didn't....you gun grabbers have no sense of reality.....

Didn't say he did shoot the wrong guy. I said he would have shot the wrong guy. And that is clear from both the links we posted. I was right, you were wrong.

Brain....he did not shoot the guy and he had the chance to do it........there is no "Would have shot the wrong guy" because he didn't shoot the wrong guy in the middle of the actual chaos of the event with shots ringing out and people running and screaming.......he didn't do it.....and you can't use that to prove your point...you are wrong....

 

[2aguy]

Utter nonsense. Gun nut dogma. TY.

No gun was ever invented for self-defense, not a one.

No matter how many times you spew that, it's still a lie.

Yes, the purpose of a gun is to save or preserve the life of the user......all guns...

Who is killed by guns:
20,000 suicides per year gun owner
8,500 homicides per year innocent person
500 accidental deaths per year innocent person often gun owner
230 criminals in defense.

Yes great job preserving life of the user.

And of course you forgot the rest of the stats...the life saving stat......Each year Americans use guns, on average to stop or prevent violent criminal attack 2 million times a year, based on 40 years of research, conducted by both government and private researchers, many of whom are anti gun researchers.....and of the 16 out of 19 studies on defensive gun use, that I have access to, not one number is lower than760,000 times, and the average of the non military, non police included studies is 2 million times a year........

You can add brain and 2 million crimes stopped and lives saved is more than 8,454 gun murders in 2013 as per the FBI table 8........

And again, gun murders, and gun accidental deaths are going down, not up as more people own and carry guns for self defense....

So...over 320 million Americans, over 320 million guns in private hands, over 90 million homes with guns and over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

and yet only 8,454 gun murders, concentrated in small, multi block, crime ridden areas in democrat controlled cities (New York is getting worse with the new democrat mayor).....

And only 505 accidental gun deaths in 2013, and still going down.....

And again...suicides don't count since the rest of the world, if they have access to guns or not use rope more than guns.....

Those numbers are all fantasy. None of them are supported by reality. And with 8,500 homicides each year gun owners who are a minority of the population can only be saving the lives of some number under that. Sorry but that's a fact.

Who is killed by guns:
20,000 suicides per year gun owner
8,500 homicides per year innocent person
500 accidental deaths per year innocent person often gun owner
230 criminals in defense.

Those are actual stats, not your survey fantasy land.

Again, you are being dishonest brain....there is 40 years of research into gun self defense....at least 19 different studies on gun self defense in general and 29 on concealed carry and crime rates in particular....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[Brain357]

So brain...your self,defense strategy comes in three techniques....

1) hope the violent killer is kind....

2) hope the violent killer is incompetent

3) hope that you have pure, dumb luck working for you...

Another aspect of the pure, dumb luck that saved lives at the Gifford shooting....he fired within a crowd, meaning he allowed his victims to be close to him...and then advanced on someone he thought he had already killed.....pure, dumb luck and incompetence on his part...

so 2 out of 3 of your techniques worked......

What we learned from this shooting.
1. Shooter stopped by unarmed heroes.
2. Armed guy would have shot wrong person.
3. Mag limits would have saved lives.

What we learned from this shooting.
1. Shooter stopped by unarmed heroes.
2. Armed guy would have shot wrong person.
3. Mag limits would have saved lives

What you failed to learn from the shooting since you are a gun grabber...

1) the unarmed heroes got lucky....pure dumb luck......had he not just grazed Bill Badger and still walked forward he would not have been tackled, and had the old lady, who simply laid on the ground in the hope he would ignore her and kill someone else, not had him fall down right in front of her...how close....so close she just had to reach out and grab the magazine...

Pure ******* dumb luck on all the parts of the unarmed heroes...you may want to put your life in the hands of pure dumb luck.....the rest of us don't...

2) The two concealed carriers were ready to take over had pure dumb luck not happened.......and the one concealed carrier who thought the other guy may have been another shooter did not shoot....again...in the middle of the chaos of this shooting...he saw a man with a gun, recognized he wasn't the problem.....and did not shoot him, but calmly disarmed him just to be sure....so you are wrong brain...and had pure dumb luck failed, he would have been able to stop the shooter

Because he had a gun of his own........

3) Magazine limits.....the guy was willing to commit mass murder and you think a law about magazine limits would stop him...

First...the Santa barbara shooter and the famous Columbine shooters just used 10 round magazines...the Santa Barbara shooter was following Californias magazine limit law..and he still killed people.....

And in France, a country with no gun stores, with stricter gun control than the United States...a gun grabbers paradise...3 terrorists, 2 on a government terrorist watch list ,and 1 a convicted felon, easily bought fully automatic rifles.....30 round magazines, hand grenades, pistols and a rocket propelled grenade, and they easily crossed an international border 2 times into another country with strict gun control and bought all those weapons in that country....again, with strict gun control laws........and not one gun control measure in France stopped them.....

And again, that same week in France, masked gunmen, again with fully automatic rifles and 30 round magazines...all illegal in France, a country with stricter gun control than we have, shot up a Marseilles neighborhood just before the prime minister of France was going to give a speech on crime prevention...a week after the terrorist attack on the cartoonists..

So no law on magazine limits in this country will stop violent monsters from getting those magazines if they want them.....ever......

1. There is luck when any shooter is stopped. Even armed defenders need luck so your point is moot.

2. Who are the two concealed carriers? There was one. He tried to stop one of the heroes who took the gun from the shooter.

3. Shooter was stopped at reload. Had he reloaded sooner lives would have been saved.

 

[2aguy]

Not one of those individual studies has a number under 764,000 defensive uses...and again the average for civilian use of guns excluding military and police is 2 million times a year......

 

[Brain357]

I never lie.

It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.

Concealed Carrying Bystander Nearly Killed Innocent Man During Tucson Shooting Firedoglake

Brain....you of course missed the point......he saw the guy with a gun and did not shoot him.....in the middle of the chaos he calmly took control of the guy he thought might be the shooter and took control...again....he did not shoot him and calmly dealt with the situation...

so, it was pure dumb luck on the part of the unarmed people that stopped the attack....the shooter actually shot one of the men who tackled him...and it was pure,dumb luck that the shot just grazed his head and the shooter advanced within reach....the old lady who grabbed the magazine actually laid on the ground to try to appear less of a target...she did not advance on the shooter or do anything to actually stop the attack....when the first guy helped,tackle the shooter, he fell in front of the old lady...within her reach and she grabbed the magazine...pure, dumb luck...

The only one showing an ability to deal with the attacker were the two concealed carriers who were ready to shoot....and again, did not shoot because pure dumb luck had resolved the situation..

The point is I was right. You called me a liar when I said he would have shot the wrong guy. I was right, you were wrong.

No....he didn't shoot the wrong guy and he could have....you are wrong.......what part of "He didn't shoot the guy he saw with the gun" don't you get.......the guy was right in front of him, he saw the guy wasn't a threat, which was confirmed by the bystanders who started yelling he wasn't a threat, and then he calmly disarmed the guy just in case.......you were wrong....he could have shot the guy when he first saw him pointing the gun and he didn't....you gun grabbers have no sense of reality.....

Didn't say he did shoot the wrong guy. I said he would have shot the wrong guy. And that is clear from both the links we posted. I was right, you were wrong.

Brain....he did not shoot the guy and he had the chance to do it........there is no "Would have shot the wrong guy" because he didn't shoot the wrong guy in the middle of the actual chaos of the event with shots ringing out and people running and screaming.......he didn't do it.....and you can't use that to prove your point...you are wrong....

The only guy he pointed his gun at was the wrong guy. Clearly he got much closer to shooting him than the actual shooter.