Texas man gets death penalty for killing fetus

[Little-Acorn]

I'll ask the obvious question. If this guy can get the death penalty for killing a fetus (and its mother), under this new 2003 Texas law defining a fetus as a person, what penalty do abortion doctors get for deliberately killing THOSE fetuses?

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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-02-07-19-35-27

Texas Man Gets Death for Killing Fetus

By ELIZABETH WHITE
Associated Press Writer
Feb 7, 7:35 PM EST

SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- A former youth pastor was sentenced to death Wednesday for killing a teenager and her fetus in what is believed to be the first such order in Texas, the nation's busiest death penalty state.

Adrian Estrada, 23, was convicted Friday of one count of capital murder for the death of Stephanie Sanchez and the fetus, of which he was the father.

"This is a significant case," said Bexar County prosecutor Susan Reed. "This is significant for the state."

A 2003 Texas law amended the definition of the word "individual" to include an "unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth."

The death sentence is Texas' first in the death of a fetus, said Dave Atwood, founder of the Texas Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, which monitors capital cases.

Sanchez, 17, was three months pregnant Dec. 12, 2005, when her body was found in her family's home. She had been choked and stabbed 13 times. During the trial, DNA evidence was presented to show Estrada was the father.

Estrada, a former youth pastor for a church, admitted to the stabbing the day after the killings. Prosecutors also said he worked out at a gym and went shopping after the crime. He showed no emotion when his punishment was read.

"The bad guy that you don't suspect is the one that you can't protect your loved one from," said Scott Simpson, Bexar County assistant prosecutor. "And that's what he was and that's what he is."

Estrada's attorney, Suzanne Kramer, had argued that her client made bad decisions.

"It that enough to execute him? Is that enough to kill him?" she asked the jury.

According to the Web site of the National Conference of State Legislatures, at least 36 states have homicide laws defining a fetus as a person.

 

[glockmail]

....
Estrada's attorney, Suzanne Kramer, had argued that her client made bad decisions.

"It that enough to execute him? Is that enough to kill him?" she asked the jury.
.....

Nice defense.

 

[Little-Acorn]

Her client "made bad decisions"?

Ummm... her client made someone DEAD.

Two someones, in fact, according to Texas law.

How much do you have to pay a lawyer in Texas to get her to stop noticing that inconvenient fact?

 

[Nienna]

I'm wondering why they mentioned the "youth pastor" thing. They mentioned it twice. Was he a youth pastor at the time of the murder? What was the relevance of that piece of information, unless to hint of the "evil" influence of religion?

 

[pegwinn]

I'm wondering why they mentioned the "youth pastor" thing. They mentioned it twice. Was he a youth pastor at the time of the murder? What was the relevance of that piece of information, unless to hint of the "evil" influence of religion?

I will try to explain. If you find it offensive then you may neg rep me and call a lawyer That was a joke, it's Saturday and I just finished fifty-eight hour week. Need Beer and humor.

Certain folks in our society are set on a pedestal. Cops, Teachers, Firemen, Clergy, Army, Navy, AirForce, Marines, and Boy Scouts just to name a few. When they screw the pooch, society demands more than the simple stern talking to and slap on the wrist. In Texas we say that an "ass whuppin" is in order.

I will freely admit that none of the above (save Marines of course) are perfect. But society places them on a pedestal as a gesture of the genuine awe felt that someone would aspire to such greatness. When one (of the pedestal people) fails to uphold the mythos, vital trust is chipped away until one day the pedestal is gone. It happened to Batman you know.

Which is why the youth minister was mentioned twice. The prosecutor was reminding the jury that he not only fell off the pedestal, he kicked it, cursed at it, and now all youth ministers must re-certify them selves as genuine pedestal worthy standers.

Clear as mud now?

 

[Bullypulpit]

The law is overly broad and vague. He could have gotten the death penalty for murdering the teen. But to equate a fetus "at any stage of development" with an actual human being is utter nonsense. By that logic, a woman who takes Plan B to prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in her uterus would be guilty of murder. It's <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> to equate potential life with actual life.

 

[Avatar4321]

Nice defense.

If that's his attorney's argument Id be suing her for malpractice. Although that wont really help him.

 

[pegwinn]

The law is overly broad and vague. He could have gotten the death penalty for murdering the teen. But to equate a fetus "at any stage of development" with an actual human being is utter nonsense. By that logic, a woman who takes Plan B to prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in her uterus would be guilty of murder. It's <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> to equate potential life with actual life.

In order for the fetal law to take effect you have to do something to the mom. It's a second layer only, never a primary. Look it up on findlaw I think. Long, boring read, but that was the gist of it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

In order for the fetal law to take effect you have to do something to the mom. It's a second layer only, never a primary. Look it up on findlaw I think. Long, boring read, but that was the gist of it.

True enough, but follow it to it's logical conclusion. There you will find the real agenda of the so called "right-to life" movement

 

[red states rule]

True enough, but follow it to it's logical conclusion. There you will find the real agenda of the so called "right-to life" movement

Bush Court Overturns Roe v. Wade
When I first read today's horrifying headline "SUPREME COURT BANS DEATH PENALTY FOR YOUTHS!" I nearly plotzed.

"OMIGODDESS! BUSH HAS DONE IT!" I screamed at my confused cat. "THAT FASCIST SHRUB HAS OVERTURNED ROE V. WADE!"

But after reading further, I breathed a deep sigh of relief. Thankfully, the court ruling only applies to youths who have committed horrible, ghastly crimes - usually through no fault of their own. Womyn can still purge their bodies of intestinal parasites without the Ashcroft Gestapo hauling them off to Gitmo.

For now, anyway.

As with the Terry Schiavo case, this may just be another Bush plot to slowly chip away at a Woman's Right to Choose. Now that his conservative-packed Supreme Court has ruled that executing teenagers is "cruel and usual punishment", it'll be all to easy for them to slowly lower the bar. Today, it's teenagers. Tomorrow they'll be insisting it's "cruel and unusual" to slowly drown your five kids in a bathtub - rather than merely a symptom of post-partum depression. Then before you know it, we'll be right back in the dark ages of the 1950's when abortion wasn't lauded as a noble feminist statement against male hegemony.

Still, I'm not quite ready to jump on the pro-death penalty bandwagon. At least, not for so-called "criminals". If Bush is going to undermine a Woman's Right to Choose by sparing the lives of "guilty" minors, then we must do the exact opposite to protect that right and demand the immediate execution of all "innocent" teens.

It shouldn't he too difficult. We'll begin with every minor who doesn't have a criminal record. Their "innocence" is merely a product of their complacency, so they're little more than itty-bitty Eichmanns in the prison/industrial complex. As soon as they're out of the way, we can start on the College Republicans, who've been itching for it for a long time. Oh, and we absolutely must do something about the Boy Scouts...except for the gay ones.

Now, I'm not advocating acts of violence against any of these people, but rather a kind, humane, form of euthanasia. Death is, after all, a release from the cruel suffering of life. It should be a beautiful experience, spent amongst loved ones, and administered by physicians with the government-granted authority to snuff us out.

http://blamebush.typepad.com/blamebush/reproductive_rights/index.html

 

[pegwinn]

True enough, but follow it to it's logical conclusion. There you will find the real agenda of the so called "right-to life" movement

Key on the words "true enough". I gave you the facts. The logical conclusion is that in Texas if a Fetus or unborn person or whatever dies as a result of criminal trauma to the host (that would be mom) then it's a crime. Sometimes C really does follow A + B without any convolution.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Key on the words "true enough". I gave you the facts. The logical conclusion is that in Texas if a Fetus or unborn person or whatever dies as a result of criminal trauma to the host (that would be mom) then it's a crime. Sometimes C really does follow A + B without any convolution.

My bad. I should have written "follow it to its logical extension". That logical extension being that any intrusion into the human reproductive cycle which prevents fertilization and/or implantation of the blastocyst in the wall of the uterus is unlawful.

Perhaps we should take a lesson from Saudi Arabia and establish our own Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice here in America. That way, women can be kept in their place.

 

[red states rule]

My bad. I should have written "follow it to its logical extension". That logical extension being that any intrusion into the human reproductive cycle which prevents fertilization and/or implantation of the blastocyst in the wall of the uterus is unlawful.

Perhaps we should take a lesson from Saudi Arabia and establish our own Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice here in America. That way, women can be kept in their place.

On the one hand libs call Vietnam Veterans and Iraq war vets "baby killers" but they think that allowing a woman to suck her baby into a sink is a constitutionally protected right.


Go figure

 

[Hagbard Celine]

I'll ask the obvious question. If this guy can get the death penalty for killing a fetus (and its mother), under this new 2003 Texas law defining a fetus as a person, what penalty do abortion doctors get for deliberately killing THOSE fetuses?

----------------------------

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-02-07-19-35-27

Texas Man Gets Death for Killing Fetus

By ELIZABETH WHITE
Associated Press Writer
Feb 7, 7:35 PM EST

SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- A former youth pastor was sentenced to death Wednesday for killing a teenager and her fetus in what is believed to be the first such order in Texas, the nation's busiest death penalty state.

Adrian Estrada, 23, was convicted Friday of one count of capital murder for the death of Stephanie Sanchez and the fetus, of which he was the father.

"This is a significant case," said Bexar County prosecutor Susan Reed. "This is significant for the state."

A 2003 Texas law amended the definition of the word "individual" to include an "unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth."

The death sentence is Texas' first in the death of a fetus, said Dave Atwood, founder of the Texas Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, which monitors capital cases.

Sanchez, 17, was three months pregnant Dec. 12, 2005, when her body was found in her family's home. She had been choked and stabbed 13 times. During the trial, DNA evidence was presented to show Estrada was the father.

Estrada, a former youth pastor for a church, admitted to the stabbing the day after the killings. Prosecutors also said he worked out at a gym and went shopping after the crime. He showed no emotion when his punishment was read.

"The bad guy that you don't suspect is the one that you can't protect your loved one from," said Scott Simpson, Bexar County assistant prosecutor. "And that's what he was and that's what he is."

Estrada's attorney, Suzanne Kramer, had argued that her client made bad decisions.

"It that enough to execute him? Is that enough to kill him?" she asked the jury.

According to the Web site of the National Conference of State Legislatures, at least 36 states have homicide laws defining a fetus as a person.

If the fetus is killed without the mother's permission it's considered a human. If the mother decides to abort her pregnancy, it's just a fetus.

 

[red states rule]

If the fetus is killed without the mother's permission it's considered a human. If the mother decides to abort her pregnancy, it's just a fetus.

look at the 3-d sonograms and tell me it is not a baby. You can see his/her face, fingers, nose, and smile

libs hate to see them on TV. People mght really see there is a human being in the womens stomach - not a mass of protoplasma

 

[Hagbard Celine]

look at the 3-d sonograms and tell me it is not a baby. You can see his/her face, fingers, nose, and smile

libs hate to see them on TV. People mght really see there is a human being in the womens stomach - not a mass of protoplasma

It's a states rights issue. It's a women's choice issue. It's between a woman, her god and her doctor IMO. I don't think it's an issue that we the people can restrict a person from making.

LOL, you've gotten to the point that you call anyone you disagree with a "lib"

 

[red states rule]

It's a states rights issue. It's a women's choice issue. It's between a woman, her god and her doctor IMO. I don't think it's an issue that we the people can restrict a person from making.

LOL, you've gotten to the point that you call anyone you disagree with a "lib"

If it is a states rights issue why liberal Judges toss out the votes of the people who vote to ban partial birth abortions?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

If it is a states rights issue why liberal Judges toss out the votes of the people who vote to ban partial birth abortions?

Because of Roe v. Wade. That case made it a national issue, plus I think most judges would read a ban on abortion as unconstitutional.

 

[red states rule]

Because of Roe v. Wade. That case made it a national issue, plus I think most judges would read a ban on abortion as unconstitutional.

I thought you just aid it was a state rights issue. Or does that apply only when the folks vote the "left" way and agree to murder the unborn by drilling a hole in his/her head and sucking the brain out?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

I thought you just aid it was a state rights issue. Or does that apply only when the folks vote the "left" way and agree to murder the unborn by drilling a hole in his/her head and sucking the brain out?

It's a states rights issue, but I think a ban on it would be counted as unconstitutional under the US Constitution. Federal rights trump state laws. If it's unconstitutional, it won't stand.