Tesla Model S - Love the Car and Range, but...

[edthecynic]

You neglected to mention that the Prius is used and sold as is.

"We are now offering the Recycled Prius Program where we sell converted Solar Plug-In Prius cars for $25,000.00 (10% deposit required). Sold in as is condition."
Also the technology doesn't work for pure EV's (I called and asked them) though they plan on having something in the future that will work on a pure EV auto.

The point was that a very small solar collector on the car roof could generate enough power for 20 to 30 miles a day, so a much larger array that is on the roof of a house could easily charge a car. Not only that, the car roof collector was nano technology which is less efficient than the silicon collectors usually mounted on the roof of a house.

I find it interesting that they limit it to a hybrid. That tells me that the claim may not be up to snuff. If it is good for them, but I am suspicious based on what we know of solar cell technology at the present time.

IOW, you know you are full of shit with your claim that it would take a month to charge an EV in winter from the solar collector arrays on the roof of a house but you are too dishonest to admit it.

It takes about a 2K system to charge an EV, most home solar systems are around 8 to 10K. I have a friend locally who has an 8K system on his roof and an all electric house and it handles all his home electric, including heat in winter and AC in summer, hot water and his electric car and he still generates a little extra electricity that makes his electric meter run backwards.

 

[Zander]

Get rid of the government subsidy and I am all for this car and others like it


If Tesla has a good product the market will buy it- government incentives only distort the market. We need to end all Crony Capitalism.

 

[westwall]

The point was that a very small solar collector on the car roof could generate enough power for 20 to 30 miles a day, so a much larger array that is on the roof of a house could easily charge a car. Not only that, the car roof collector was nano technology which is less efficient than the silicon collectors usually mounted on the roof of a house.

I find it interesting that they limit it to a hybrid. That tells me that the claim may not be up to snuff. If it is good for them, but I am suspicious based on what we know of solar cell technology at the present time.

IOW, you know you are full of shit with your claim that it would take a month to charge an EV in winter from the solar collector arrays on the roof of a house but you are too dishonest to admit it.

It takes about a 2K system to charge an EV, most home solar systems are around 8 to 10K. I have a friend locally who has an 8K system on his roof and an all electric house and it handles all his home electric, including heat in winter and AC in summer, hot water and his electric car and he still generates a little extra electricity that makes his electric meter run backwards.

I have a solar system as well, I built it around 20 years ago so it is now in need of replacement so I have been researching the issue for a few months because I want the most bang or my buck and winter time in the Sierra's is far different from you flat landers.
No system I have found will do what you claim.

 

[GHook93]

Get rid of the government subsidy and I am all for this car and others like it


If Tesla has a good product the market will buy it- government incentives only distort the market. We need to end all Crony Capitalism.

They actually have a great product to market. Even at 160 miles per charge.

The average commute for Americans is 32 miles there and back (16 miles for one way) and give or take 8 misc miles = 40 miles a day.

For the 160 mile one that is still 4 days of driving. Still a little short for my liking.
For the 250 mile one that is 6.25 days and would full most long distance (not including trips) trips
For the 320 mile ones that is 8 full days, more distance than most all gas cars and would fit everyone.

The car is very cool looking, great feature. A ton of trunk space. Fits upto 8 people. Very very fast. And there will be a market for it.

HOWEVER, the product is good, but the price going to prevent it from appealing to the mainstream American public. Just too expensive for most. Especially in the credit weak market!

 

[flacaltenn]

Simply plug it in to your local coal-fired generated electrical outlet. What's not to like?

What is wrong with that?

First, getting off the foreign oil tit is my concern! Not the global warming hoax.

Second, stationary sources have been proven to be more efficient than mobile ones. Coal and natural gas plants use much more the substance that gas engines.

Third, we have more coal and natural gas reserves than any other country on Earth. Enough to meet our energy needs for centuries

Fourth, unlike our oil, the Environazis have not stopped us from utilizing and pulling these sources out of the grounded.

Fifth, stationary sources can utilize a wide variety of fuels: Coal, Natural Gas, Hydroelectric, Nuclear, biomass, Solar and wind! With the mobile source we are such with oil (aka foreign oil)!

Sixth, I rather have us using 10 fold more coal and natural gas than oil, since we have enough coal and natural gas to meet our needs for centuries and even now we only produce 50% of our gas/oil needs domestically!

Seventh, our oil addiction makes bad countries rich: Arab countries, Venezuela, Russia, Iran etc. rich and holds our economy hostage. Send an economic nuclear bomb against these countries!

Eigth, ending our imports of oil would drastically reduce our trade deficit! Wouldn't cure it, but would help it!

Congrats GHook.. At least YOU realize that the electric car does not in itself "clean the planet". That's gonna be a hard sell to the MASSES who believe that to be true..

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

Here's what I want to know.. The LEAF has a 34KwHr/100mile efficiency (not counting charging losses, airconditioning or heating, 200W stereo system, ect).. It's battery capacity is slightly less than that -- about 25Kwhr..

WHERE in the hell is that energy gonna come from? 34KwHr is 150% of the normal home load for 24 hours.. Gonna build MORE coal plants? Nuclear?

Or are we supposed to continue to be nannied about pulling out our phone chargers and turning off the lights like the eco-nauts seem to advocate?

BTW: the LEAF requires a 220V high amp connection to even get the car charged overnight. That and the CHarging adapter (not included in the vehicle price) sets you back an additional $2K or $2.5K.

 

[RGR]

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

Right tool for the job. During blizzards in the high mountains of Colorado, I drive the Hummer. During intermediate and warm summer days, I drive the hybrid.

Isn't it reasonable that EVs are going to start out as 2nd and 3rd cars? Will help cut down costs on running the F350 dually when we aren't towing the horses somewhere, right?

 

[flacaltenn]

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

Right tool for the job. During blizzards in the high mountains of Colorado, I drive the Hummer. During intermediate and warm summer days, I drive the hybrid.

Isn't it reasonable that EVs are going to start out as 2nd and 3rd cars? Will help cut down costs on running the F350 dually when we aren't towing the horses somewhere, right?

Absolutely.. I wouldn't even worry much about the hybrid and winter conditions except for traction.. (Should have put the battery load in the rear maybe?)

Even the thought of sending a teenage daughter out for a night in the city in an all-Electric with a 70 mile range would bother me. I can't get her to read gauges or care about what the lights mean. I like to think that she'd not get distracted picking extra up/dropping off folks, side trips and the like. But kids don't have a great sense of time and distance when they first get on the road..

 

[TruthSeeker56]

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

Right tool for the job. During blizzards in the high mountains of Colorado, I drive the Hummer. During intermediate and warm summer days, I drive the hybrid.

Isn't it reasonable that EVs are going to start out as 2nd and 3rd cars? Will help cut down costs on running the F350 dually when we aren't towing the horses somewhere, right?

RGR, you nailed it. People need to understand that EVs and solar panels and wind turbines are SUPPLEMENTAL energy products, due to their built-in inefficiencies and the apparent "inability" of enviro-engineers to produce more efficient versions of these products.

We have a Ford F-250 Super Duty that will pass everything but a gas station. It has a specific use...........winter travel and snow plowing. Our other vehicle gets 29 MPG and we use it 90% of the time. I love driving the F250, but I can't justify the expense of a "joy ride".

Owning an EV as a second vehicle for a specific use is just about the only sensible way to justify the initial expense of owning one.

 

[GHook93]

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

LOL so true, but that could easily happen with a gas powered engine! Running out of power has the same effect as running out of gas.

Here's what I want to know.. The LEAF has a 34KwHr/100mile efficiency (not counting charging losses, airconditioning or heating, 200W stereo system, ect).. It's battery capacity is slightly less than that -- about 25Kwhr..

WHERE in the hell is that energy gonna come from? 34KwHr is 150% of the normal home load for 24 hours.. Gonna build MORE coal plants? Nuclear

?
And what is wrong with that!
Coal, NATURAL GAS, nuclear and hydro! We have centuries worth of natural gas and coal left from our current drilling sources and we have ton other untapped sources. Obama promised, and broke that promise, to build more nuclear plants. And I think we should. Hydro like the Hoover Damn produces a lot of energy.

I see a HUGE benefit of moving from mobile foreign oil based automobiles to stationary DOMESTIC coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro sources!

Or are we supposed to continue to be nannied about pulling out our phone chargers and turning off the lights like the eco-nauts seem to advocate?

BTW: the LEAF requires a 220V high amp connection to even get the car charged overnight. That and the CHarging adapter (not included in the vehicle price) sets you back an additional $2K or $2.5K.

Why should we? We are the Saudi Arabia of coal and natural gas (we could also be that of Oil too)!

 

[Trajan]

The point was that a very small solar collector on the car roof could generate enough power for 20 to 30 miles a day, so a much larger array that is on the roof of a house could easily charge a car. Not only that, the car roof collector was nano technology which is less efficient than the silicon collectors usually mounted on the roof of a house.

I find it interesting that they limit it to a hybrid. That tells me that the claim may not be up to snuff. If it is good for them, but I am suspicious based on what we know of solar cell technology at the present time.

IOW, you know you are full of shit with your claim that it would take a month to charge an EV in winter from the solar collector arrays on the roof of a house but you are too dishonest to admit it.

It takes about a 2K system to charge an EV, most home solar systems are around 8 to 10K. I have a friend locally who has an 8K system on his roof and an all electric house and it handles all his home electric, including heat in winter and AC in summer, hot water and his electric car and he still generates a little extra electricity that makes his electric meter run backwards.

every home doesn't have a 220 set up for that. and frankly I find these claims hard to believe as well.

the solar independent of the grid runs his AC and all his appliances while turning back the meter? does he live in a doghouse?

...I too had a guy here last summer that speced my house for solar, and even with the latest greatest I had a 18 year cost effective hole at optimal conditions to be a dime ahead and, I do not have central air.

 

[flacaltenn]

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

LOL so true, but that could easily happen with a gas powered engine! Running out of power has the same effect as running out of gas.

Here's what I want to know.. The LEAF has a 34KwHr/100mile efficiency (not counting charging losses, airconditioning or heating, 200W stereo system, ect).. It's battery capacity is slightly less than that -- about 25Kwhr..

WHERE in the hell is that energy gonna come from? 34KwHr is 150% of the normal home load for 24 hours.. Gonna build MORE coal plants? Nuclear

?
And what is wrong with that!
Coal, NATURAL GAS, nuclear and hydro! We have centuries worth of natural gas and coal left from our current drilling sources and we have ton other untapped sources. Obama promised, and broke that promise, to build more nuclear plants. And I think we should. Hydro like the Hoover Damn produces a lot of energy.

I see a HUGE benefit of moving from mobile foreign oil based automobiles to stationary DOMESTIC coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro sources!

Or are we supposed to continue to be nannied about pulling out our phone chargers and turning off the lights like the eco-nauts seem to advocate?

BTW: the LEAF requires a 220V high amp connection to even get the car charged overnight. That and the CHarging adapter (not included in the vehicle price) sets you back an additional $2K or $2.5K.

Why should we? We are the Saudi Arabia of coal and natural gas (we could also be that of Oil too)!

You get it GHook. You've thought it thru.. But unfortunately, that's not how it's being sold. I've seen studies where the highest motivator to splurge the big bucks for EVs is "to save the planet" or the equiv.

Like you --- I'm all for the infrastructure to convert our gasoline fleet to electric. But it AIN'T ever gonna happen with the attitude of making electricity "Rare and Expensive". That's what the nauseating conservation message means. It needs to be "Cheap and Plentiful" to bring the transporation energy base over to electric. And the CLEANEST way to get there and make the "Warmers" happy to boot would be to replace our 50 aging nuclear plants with 100 21st Century Nuclear plants and finish Yucca Mtn.

The sum total nuclear waste for a typical home per year is 0.7 ounces. Add and EV and maybe that becomes 1.3 or 1.4 ounces... Tear down the dams. Free the salmon, use those windmills to ventilate Kansas, piss off the A-Rabs and cool the earth..

We can rest on the 7th day...

 

[RGR]

Isn't it reasonable that EVs are going to start out as 2nd and 3rd cars? Will help cut down costs on running the F350 dually when we aren't towing the horses somewhere, right?

Absolutely.. I wouldn't even worry much about the hybrid and winter conditions except for traction.. (Should have put the battery load in the rear maybe?)

My first hybrid was an AWD Ford Escape. Battery compartment smack over the rear axle. Was a GOAT in the snow, no problem.

Even the thought of sending a teenage daughter out for a night in the city in an all-Electric with a 70 mile range would bother me. I can't get her to read gauges or care about what the lights mean. I like to think that she'd not get distracted picking extra up/dropping off folks, side trips and the like. But kids don't have a great sense of time and distance when they first get on the road..

Neither does my wife. She sometimes misses that large yellow light which comes on when the tank hits reserve...tough to miss...but she does anyway.

 

[RGR]

Isn't it reasonable that EVs are going to start out as 2nd and 3rd cars? Will help cut down costs on running the F350 dually when we aren't towing the horses somewhere, right?

RGR, you nailed it. People need to understand that EVs and solar panels and wind turbines are SUPPLEMENTAL energy products, due to their built-in inefficiencies and the apparent "inability" of enviro-engineers to produce more efficient versions of these products.

I don't know that I would run quite so fast towards inefficiencies. Energy wise, EVs are very efficient at converting energy into motion. And machines like the Volt try and cure the inherent range issues of EVs with a gas powered generator onboard. I have a tough time giving up my 40+ mpg hybrid for 30+ mpg in a Volt however, for road trips. My road trips are legendary, I would do better with a diesel, or something more like the pluggable Prius. Less EV range, but still a 50mpg roadtrip car. I don't need the full 40 miles of EV range that some commuters might.

Owning an EV as a second vehicle for a specific use is just about the only sensible way to justify the initial expense of owning one.

Nah...be a gizmo guy like me, and don't use economics to justify the purchase, just the gizmo/coolness/eco friendly factor. People wouldn't ever buy Vettes if it was an economic decision. Fortunately, car buying usually isn't.

 

[flacaltenn]

Isn't it reasonable that EVs are going to start out as 2nd and 3rd cars? Will help cut down costs on running the F350 dually when we aren't towing the horses somewhere, right?

RGR, you nailed it. People need to understand that EVs and solar panels and wind turbines are SUPPLEMENTAL energy products, due to their built-in inefficiencies and the apparent "inability" of enviro-engineers to produce more efficient versions of these products.

I don't know that I would run quite so fast towards inefficiencies. Energy wise, EVs are very efficient at converting energy into motion. And machines like the Volt try and cure the inherent range issues of EVs with a gas powered generator onboard. I have a tough time giving up my 40+ mpg hybrid for 30+ mpg in a Volt however, for road trips. My road trips are legendary, I would do better with a diesel, or something more like the pluggable Prius. Less EV range, but still a 50mpg roadtrip car. I don't need the full 40 miles of EV range that some commuters might.

Owning an EV as a second vehicle for a specific use is just about the only sensible way to justify the initial expense of owning one.

Nah...be a gizmo guy like me, and don't use economics to justify the purchase, just the gizmo/coolness/eco friendly factor. People wouldn't ever buy Vettes if it was an economic decision. Fortunately, car buying usually isn't.

I knew it.. You're a car saleman ain'tcha?

 

[Old Rocks]

Simply plug it in to your local coal-fired generated electrical outlet. What's not to like?

You can also plug it into the solar collector on your roof, you are not locked into conventional sources of electricity!!!

It takes about a week to recharge an EV with a solar set up. Sometimes as much as two weeks. In winter time it could take over a month.

As usual you are full of shit, Walleyes. A grid tied installation will take no more time to charge the car than a home without the solar power. The differance is that the person with the solar may just get a bit of money back at the end of the year instead of an increasing electric bill every month. Even with the fast electric.

 

[Old Rocks]

Just pray you don't get caught in a Chicago blizzard on Lake Shore Drive for 18 hours or your simple 30 mile commute could end with you becoming an ice sculpture..

LOL so true, but that could easily happen with a gas powered engine! Running out of power has the same effect as running out of gas.

?
And what is wrong with that!
Coal, NATURAL GAS, nuclear and hydro! We have centuries worth of natural gas and coal left from our current drilling sources and we have ton other untapped sources. Obama promised, and broke that promise, to build more nuclear plants. And I think we should. Hydro like the Hoover Damn produces a lot of energy.

I see a HUGE benefit of moving from mobile foreign oil based automobiles to stationary DOMESTIC coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro sources!

Or are we supposed to continue to be nannied about pulling out our phone chargers and turning off the lights like the eco-nauts seem to advocate?

BTW: the LEAF requires a 220V high amp connection to even get the car charged overnight. That and the CHarging adapter (not included in the vehicle price) sets you back an additional $2K or $2.5K.

Why should we? We are the Saudi Arabia of coal and natural gas (we could also be that of Oil too)!

You get it GHook. You've thought it thru.. But unfortunately, that's not how it's being sold. I've seen studies where the highest motivator to splurge the big bucks for EVs is "to save the planet" or the equiv.

Like you --- I'm all for the infrastructure to convert our gasoline fleet to electric. But it AIN'T ever gonna happen with the attitude of making electricity "Rare and Expensive". That's what the nauseating conservation message means. It needs to be "Cheap and Plentiful" to bring the transporation energy base over to electric. And the CLEANEST way to get there and make the "Warmers" happy to boot would be to replace our 50 aging nuclear plants with 100 21st Century Nuclear plants and finish Yucca Mtn.

The sum total nuclear waste for a typical home per year is 0.7 ounces. Add and EV and maybe that becomes 1.3 or 1.4 ounces... Tear down the dams. Free the salmon, use those windmills to ventilate Kansas, piss off the A-Rabs and cool the earth..

We can rest on the 7th day...

Put some real money into developing the thorium reactors, and use that 'waste' for more power. Plus, according to the physicists, thorium reactors cannot have meltdowns.

Do not want any of the present generation reactors built. Until they can shut down safely in the worse kinds of conditions, I do not think they are worth the risk. The Japanese reactors are still a danger.

 

[Old Rocks]

Get rid of the government subsidy and I am all for this car and others like it


If Tesla has a good product the market will buy it- government incentives only distort the market. We need to end all Crony Capitalism.

Get rid of all government subsidies and tax credits for the petroleum and coal companies first.

 

[Zander]

Get rid of the government subsidy and I am all for this car and others like it


If Tesla has a good product the market will buy it- government incentives only distort the market. We need to end all Crony Capitalism.

Get rid of all government subsidies and tax credits for the petroleum and coal companies first.

I agree.

 

[flacaltenn]

The Nissan Leaf info tells buyers to have a DEDICATED 220V 40A breaker for the charger adapter (sold separately). YES I said 40 Amp!!!

However they specify the charge time as 7 hrs on 220V service. Using the 25KWhr EV battery capacity and adding a bit for charge losses -- that implies about 18Amp to get done in one solar day. That's a 4KW actual demand from anywhere (solar or not).. I'm being generous about "one solar day" since you're not gonna get 7 hrs except for peak summer.

There's no way around it.. You've just easily doubled the typical installed solar array in order to still run your home during the day that you are charging. OR

You could live on the EV edge and trickle charge the car from 110V which takes about 20 hours. IF you can be daring and live with tank never really full -- or spring for PAYING the electric company to continue to charge at night..

I doubt there's much change in the charge rates and loads for the Tesla, but the capacity is much higher.

 

[Photonic]

LOL so true, but that could easily happen with a gas powered engine! Running out of power has the same effect as running out of gas.

?
And what is wrong with that!
Coal, NATURAL GAS, nuclear and hydro! We have centuries worth of natural gas and coal left from our current drilling sources and we have ton other untapped sources. Obama promised, and broke that promise, to build more nuclear plants. And I think we should. Hydro like the Hoover Damn produces a lot of energy.

I see a HUGE benefit of moving from mobile foreign oil based automobiles to stationary DOMESTIC coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro sources!



Why should we? We are the Saudi Arabia of coal and natural gas (we could also be that of Oil too)!

You get it GHook. You've thought it thru.. But unfortunately, that's not how it's being sold. I've seen studies where the highest motivator to splurge the big bucks for EVs is "to save the planet" or the equiv.

Like you --- I'm all for the infrastructure to convert our gasoline fleet to electric. But it AIN'T ever gonna happen with the attitude of making electricity "Rare and Expensive". That's what the nauseating conservation message means. It needs to be "Cheap and Plentiful" to bring the transporation energy base over to electric. And the CLEANEST way to get there and make the "Warmers" happy to boot would be to replace our 50 aging nuclear plants with 100 21st Century Nuclear plants and finish Yucca Mtn.

The sum total nuclear waste for a typical home per year is 0.7 ounces. Add and EV and maybe that becomes 1.3 or 1.4 ounces... Tear down the dams. Free the salmon, use those windmills to ventilate Kansas, piss off the A-Rabs and cool the earth..

We can rest on the 7th day...

Put some real money into developing the thorium reactors, and use that 'waste' for more power. Plus, according to the physicists, thorium reactors cannot have meltdowns.

Do not want any of the present generation reactors built. Until they can shut down safely in the worse kinds of conditions, I do not think they are worth the risk. The Japanese reactors are still a danger.

A nuclear reactor built at this time is incapable of melting down as it is in a constant state of meltdown anyways.