Teachers Union Gone Wild

[chanel]

The problem is far more complicated than just those "greedy teachers" and the tenure system. Its about the pension system. For the past 15 years corrupt politicians have had their hands in the cookie jar and now the debt is bankrupting the state. The union says its the govts job to fix it since they were the ones who broke it. Christie says it doesn't matter who broke it. He's in charge of fixing it. They're both right. But demonizing the entire profession makes it easier for him to push shit through. And demonizing the governor gives the union more ammo. The whole thing sucks. It would be refreshing if both sides would explain to the public how and why the sky is falling instead of this HS bullshit. I guess pension reform isn't quite as titillating as ambush videos and calling Christie fat. Sigh...

 

[glew]

Its about the pension system.

When we conservatives talk about "union greed", we are almost exclusively referring to the benefits...Which include pensions. The benefits packages are what is unsustainable...Not the salaries.

 

[chanel]

Not necessarily. According to the union, if the pension had been fully funded for the past 15 years, it would still be viable. And that was what was negotiated.

How dare they now "blame the victims"? How
about "we fucked up royally. We apologize. How can we work together to fix it?"

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening.

 

[glew]

If I were a teacher, I'd accept the cuts...but would ONLY work paid hours and stop spending my own money....and let the parents know if they ask.

Chris Christie said it best...If you don't like the pay or the hours, then find a job that fits better. Lots of non-union workers are paid salary and expected to work beyond the 9-5 shift. When I was paid salary, some months I earned more per hour and some montths I earned less. Non-union workers that advance in life are the ones willing to put in the extra time and effort to do a good job...In a union setting, doing a good job isn't as important as seniority or tenure. And didn't that right wing kook, Bush 41 start OSHA...Do you really think OSHA is the be all, end all, of safety? Read the handbook sometime...You will scratch your head

To address some of your points and some of your misconceptions:

So in other words there are times salaried personnel are expected to work for free. Sounds like a real bargain to me!!

Teachers are among the lowest paid and least respected degreed professionals. They are expected to work miracles with students who have parents who really don't give a damn unless they get called to school for a disciplinary problem. So why do they do it? Because they have a love, calling, or gift for teaching. Why do I know this? Because since my wife is a teacher I see it first hand.

In my place of employment (power plant) in order to advance you must pass several tests and demonstrate ability. Seniority only counts for lay-offs and vacation selection. That's all. So only the ones who put forth more effort get promoted to the next level.

No, Bush 41 did NOT "start OSHA". The Occupational Safety and Health Administration was started when President Nixon signed the Occupational Safety and Health Act into law in 1970. And, according to Federal Law (CFR's) OSHA is the end all and be all of Occupational Safety and Health. Please keep in mind that OSHA Regulations were written in the blood of American workers. And I should know because part of my job is being the plant Safety Coordinator. I have taken both OSHA 10 and 30 Hour courses. So yes, I have read the CFR's (Code of Federal Regulations) and don't have to scratch my head while reading them. They are not "handbooks" either. They are the law.

I stand corrected on OSHA...Now where do I start? Seniority only counts for layoffs? So you are saying that no matter how good you are, then you are out the door before some schlub because he has been there longer? I thought that is what I said...lol...Perhaps I wasn't clear...teacher's salaries aren't the issue...It is the state having to continue paying those salaries for decades after the teacher retires...That is the problem and the root of union greed...But a case can be made that teachers are only actually teaching about 6 months out of the year. Do you get summers off? Do you get all the Holidays and two weeks during Christmas? Do teachers still get a paycheck in the summer and for holidays? 40-60k a year for that kind of free time sounds more than fair to me. If it isn't, then find work elsewhere. And yes...salaried workers are required to work when the job needs to be done....No matter the time of day or night...They get paid the same whether they work 20 hours a week or 60.

 

[DaGoose]

Chris Christie said it best...If you don't like the pay or the hours, then find a job that fits better. Lots of non-union workers are paid salary and expected to work beyond the 9-5 shift. When I was paid salary, some months I earned more per hour and some montths I earned less. Non-union workers that advance in life are the ones willing to put in the extra time and effort to do a good job...In a union setting, doing a good job isn't as important as seniority or tenure. And didn't that right wing kook, Bush 41 start OSHA...Do you really think OSHA is the be all, end all, of safety? Read the handbook sometime...You will scratch your head

To address some of your points and some of your misconceptions:

So in other words there are times salaried personnel are expected to work for free. Sounds like a real bargain to me!!

Teachers are among the lowest paid and least respected degreed professionals. They are expected to work miracles with students who have parents who really don't give a damn unless they get called to school for a disciplinary problem. So why do they do it? Because they have a love, calling, or gift for teaching. Why do I know this? Because since my wife is a teacher I see it first hand.

In my place of employment (power plant) in order to advance you must pass several tests and demonstrate ability. Seniority only counts for lay-offs and vacation selection. That's all. So only the ones who put forth more effort get promoted to the next level.

No, Bush 41 did NOT "start OSHA". The Occupational Safety and Health Administration was started when President Nixon signed the Occupational Safety and Health Act into law in 1970. And, according to Federal Law (CFR's) OSHA is the end all and be all of Occupational Safety and Health. Please keep in mind that OSHA Regulations were written in the blood of American workers. And I should know because part of my job is being the plant Safety Coordinator. I have taken both OSHA 10 and 30 Hour courses. So yes, I have read the CFR's (Code of Federal Regulations) and don't have to scratch my head while reading them. They are not "handbooks" either. They are the law.

I stand corrected on OSHA...Now where do I start? Seniority only counts for layoffs? So you are saying that no matter how good you are, then you are out the door before some schlub because he has been there longer? I thought that is what I said...lol...Perhaps I wasn't clear...teacher's salaries aren't the issue...It is the state having to continue paying those salaries for decades after the teacher retires...That is the problem and the root of union greed...But a case can be made that teachers are only actually teaching about 6 months out of the year. Do you get summers off? Do you get all the Holidays and two weeks during Christmas? Do teachers still get a paycheck in the summer and for holidays? 40-60k a year for that kind of free time sounds more than fair to me. If it isn't, then find work elsewhere. And yes...salaried workers are required to work when the job needs to be done....No matter the time of day or night...They get paid the same whether they work 20 hours a week or 60.

First you say teacher salaries aren't the issue then you make an issue out of it? Allow me to educate you on teachers. (I can only speak for Illinois)

The average wage for a teacher in our district is $50,000 per year (you were right in the ballpark). Keep in mind that is with a MASTERS degree. Most people with Masters Degrees make well over $100,000 and get great perks, respect in their professions and good retirement packages.

The average teacher with a Masters degree gets a salary based on 9 months that he or she can take over a 9 or 12 month period.

The average teacher with a Masters degree gets around $35,000 a year for their pension and still has to pay a percentage of that for their retiree medical.

No teacher in Illinois may collect Social Security either on their wages or as a surviving spouse (in other words when I die she cannot collect from MY SS). What they get in a pension is IT.

Really sounds like they're living it up, eh? And now you want to take some of that away?

 

[DaGoose]

The Teacher's Union, just like all other unions, are nothing more than a safety net for those that want to suck out all the resources they can from the public and protect the jobs of people who should have been fired long ago for poor performance. Thanks to the unions, an automobile, and most of anything else that is union made, cost us more than it's worth.

Not that we paint all workers that belong to Unions with the same brush, do we?

Why not say that ALL Union members vote exactly the same way? That they all drive the same car? That they all go to the same church?

In "closed shop" states nearly all of the best jobs are unionized and joining is a condition of employment. Are you saying that you would turn one down if offered?

I was a member of a union for about 5 years. So I can speak about unions with some authority. The thing I find interesting about the majority of the union members I have ever known is this: They will be quick to tell you what they won't do but seldom, if ever, do you hear them say what they will do. It's been my experience with union members that they are very demanding and insist on getting their way in all matters and they cry like babies when things don't go in their favor.

As an IBEW member for 30 years and Union Steward for the last 5 allow me to address your statement.

I work with many different Unions in my Safety Coordinator position, especially when we hire them out of the halls. Unless it is a specialty trade (like pipefitting, welding, millwright, etc..) the local trades will do just about any job we ask, even going out of their way. They are also budget minded and often come in under budget and under time. They are also among the most Safety minded people you ever saw. Nearly all of them participate in our "Stop Me" program (you stop them if you see them commit an unsafe act).

So what you say may be true in your area but I'm betting your experience is the exception and not the norm.

 

[glew]

They are also among the most Safety minded people you ever saw.

Translation: They will use any little excuse not to do something...example...I have to wiggle this key to get this machine to start. It dosen't work perfectly, so I will wait until someone else fixes it. Or, and this is my favorite...My contract dosen't pay me to dig...lol...had that one used on me personally

 

[glew]

The average wage for a teacher in our district is $50,000 per year (you were right in the ballpark). Keep in mind that is with a MASTERS degree. Most people with Masters Degrees make well over $100,000 and get great perks, respect in their professions and good retirement packages.

Should have gotten a masters degree in one of those fields then...lol...I'm not sure that k-12requires a masters either...I know that college instructors do...And getting even 80% of your average wage for the last 5 years is VERY expensive for any pension...That means it would take about 15-20 teacher's, monthly dues, to pay the retirement of one teacher for that month...See, most people just kind of end up in the job they do and didn't have options at the time to move around...Teachers have to plan and get schooling with the knowledge that they will be teaching at some point...So sorry if my sympathy dosen't extend very far for a person that plans their life to go a certain way, and then complains about pay and working conditions when it works out just how they planned.

 

[uscitizen]

In many ways unions are no different than a political party.

 

[chanel]

The average wage for a teacher in our district is $50,000 per year (you were right in the ballpark). Keep in mind that is with a MASTERS degree. Most people with Masters Degrees make well over $100,000 and get great perks, respect in their professions and good retirement packages.

Should have gotten a masters degree in one of those fields then...lol...I'm not sure that k-12requires a masters either...I know that college instructors do...And getting even 80% of your average wage for the last 5 years is VERY expensive for any pension...That means it would take about 15-20 teacher's, monthly dues, to pay the retirement of one teacher for that month...See, most people just kind of end up in the job they do and didn't have options at the time to move around...Teachers have to plan and get schooling with the knowledge that they will be teaching at some point...So sorry if my sympathy dosen't extend very far for a person that plans their life to go a certain way, and then complains about pay and working conditions when it works out just how they planned.

You certainly have a point. The only problem is that many teachers had a career plan that included lower pay in exchange for a good pension and better health insurance. And they had a contract with the state that guaranteed that. What has happened is that the state has reneged on that contract. If a manager in private industry had stolen the employees pension for 15 years they would be in jail with Madoff. But not the politicians.

 

[DaGoose]

They are also among the most Safety minded people you ever saw.

Translation: They will use any little excuse not to do something...example...I have to wiggle this key to get this machine to start. It dosen't work perfectly, so I will wait until someone else fixes it. Or, and this is my favorite...My contract dosen't pay me to dig...lol...had that one used on me personally

Nope. More like "The tie off point for my lanyard is not rated for the job". They will then erect scaffolding to perform a task which is even more work.

 

[DaGoose]

The average wage for a teacher in our district is $50,000 per year (you were right in the ballpark). Keep in mind that is with a MASTERS degree. Most people with Masters Degrees make well over $100,000 and get great perks, respect in their professions and good retirement packages.

Should have gotten a masters degree in one of those fields then...lol...I'm not sure that k-12requires a masters either...I know that college instructors do...And getting even 80% of your average wage for the last 5 years is VERY expensive for any pension...That means it would take about 15-20 teacher's, monthly dues, to pay the retirement of one teacher for that month...See, most people just kind of end up in the job they do and didn't have options at the time to move around...Teachers have to plan and get schooling with the knowledge that they will be teaching at some point...So sorry if my sympathy dosen't extend very far for a person that plans their life to go a certain way, and then complains about pay and working conditions when it works out just how they planned.

K-12 does not require a Masters degree but many teachers will get it in order to be the best they can be. (Kinda like continuing education that doctors take to keep up with changes in their field.)

I'm not sure I follow you on "it would take about 15-20 teacher's, monthly dues, to pay the retirement of one teacher"? Are you talking Union dues? Teacher retirement systems are funded by the state. Teachers are required to pay in to the TRS their whole working lives. Pensions payouts are paid by the state. Local school boards also pay in to the TRS.

Of course they "plan and get schooling with the knowledge that they will be teaching at some point". They are choosing the thing they want to do AND trying make make improvements in the system for the future generations of kids and teachers. Is that wrong?

Even I "just kind of ended up in the job I do and didn't have options at the time to move around" but I still strive to make improvements in my job. Like the old saying, "Work smarter, not harder".

No, teachers put up with a lot of bullshit considering their pay and working conditions. God bless them!!

 

[DaGoose]

The average wage for a teacher in our district is $50,000 per year (you were right in the ballpark). Keep in mind that is with a MASTERS degree. Most people with Masters Degrees make well over $100,000 and get great perks, respect in their professions and good retirement packages.

Should have gotten a masters degree in one of those fields then...lol...I'm not sure that k-12requires a masters either...I know that college instructors do...And getting even 80% of your average wage for the last 5 years is VERY expensive for any pension...That means it would take about 15-20 teacher's, monthly dues, to pay the retirement of one teacher for that month...See, most people just kind of end up in the job they do and didn't have options at the time to move around...Teachers have to plan and get schooling with the knowledge that they will be teaching at some point...So sorry if my sympathy dosen't extend very far for a person that plans their life to go a certain way, and then complains about pay and working conditions when it works out just how they planned.

You certainly have a point. The only problem is that many teachers had a career plan that included lower pay in exchange for a good pension and better health insurance. And they had a contract with the state that guaranteed that. What has happened is that the state has reneged on that contract. If a manager in private industry had stolen the employees pension for 15 years they would be in jail with Madoff. But not the politicians.

And that's assuming that one would consider $35,000 per year a "good" pension, especially for a degreed professional.

I'll bet that most don't know that, in Illinois, teachers are not part of the Social Security system. So they do not collect SS on top of their pensions. My wife cannot even collect off of mine in the form of survivor benefits!! What they get is it.

But you're right chanel. The teachers have a CONTRACT with the state. If the state is allowed to renege on that contract that would set a very bad precedent.

 

[glew]

No, teachers put up with a lot of bullshit considering their pay and working conditions. God bless them!!

I agree with this...burnout must be a constant problem. It is true that some kids learn differently and there should be a place for difficult students. Instead of making a teacher deal with difficult students and become a babysitter, send them home...It is the parents job to deal with bad behavior...Not teachers...On the other hand, if a teacher is burned out then students learning shouldn't suffer and that teacher must be dealt with. I'm big on school vouchers and believe a student should be allowed to go where the best education is possible, regardless of districting.

 

[glew]

And that's assuming that one would consider $35,000 per year a "good" pension, especially for a degreed professional.

Any pension is good whether it be 30k or 500k as long as it dosen't endanger future pensions because it will eventually become unaffordable. At some point, there won't be any more union bailouts and the piper will have to be paid. It is the same as any financial bubble and will burst at some point.

 

[DaGoose]

No, teachers put up with a lot of bullshit considering their pay and working conditions. God bless them!!

I agree with this...burnout must be a constant problem. It is true that some kids learn differently and there should be a place for difficult students. Instead of making a teacher deal with difficult students and become a babysitter, send them home...It is the parents job to deal with bad behavior...Not teachers...On the other hand, if a teacher is burned out then students learning shouldn't suffer and that teacher must be dealt with. I'm big on school vouchers and believe a student should be allowed to go where the best education is possible, regardless of districting.

IMHO vouchers will only benefit the ones that already send their kids to private schools and the ones who can almost afford it. The poor will still not be able to come up with what the vouchers don't cover. Private schools will also pick and choose who they "let in" so the ones who need it the most won't get it.

Also....where will the money come from to pay for these vouchers? Will you bleed the public schools further when they are already hurting or simply increase taxes?

And that's assuming that one would consider $35,000 per year a "good" pension, especially for a degreed professional.

Any pension is good whether it be 30k or 500k as long as it dosen't endanger future pensions because it will eventually become unaffordable. At some point, there won't be any more union bailouts and the piper will have to be paid. It is the same as any financial bubble and will burst at some point.

If you don't get any SS and your spouse doesn't have a great job then a pension becomes a necessity, not a perk.

 

[rikules]

The self-proclaimed muckraker behind the ACORN sting and a series of other undercover videos has taken a stab at a New Jersey teachers union.

In his "Teachers Unions Gone Wild" videos, James O'Keefe released unflattering comments made by veteran teacher Alissa Ploshnick at a New Jersey Education Association conference.

The Star-Ledger reports,
Alissa Ploshnick's unintentional starring performance in the "Teachers Unions Gone Wild" video included, among other things, using the "N" word and joking about how hard it is for tenured teachers to be fired. It was all caught on tape at a hotel bar during the weeklong conference in August.

Since the video surfaced, Ploshnick has been suspended from her job as a special education teacher and denied a pay raise, according to The Star-Ledger.

At a time when the discussion over education reform is swirling around teachers unions nationwide, the controversy has a distinctly political edge.

Some education reformers have argued that unions hinder progress by safeguarding ineffective teachers. Union representatives meanwhile respond that reformers are unfairly targeting teachers.

Muckraker James O'Keefe's 'Teachers Unions Gone Wild' Video Stirs N.J. Controversy

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdqQTIQhn5A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdqQTIQhn5A[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yt2SwDuhQ4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yt2SwDuhQ4[/ame]

Ouch.

Your thoughts?

since it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ACORN "sting" was fabricated

(also giving yet more evidence that some cons are willing to lie, cheat and deceive and most other cons are perfectly willing to BELIEVE the lies and deceptions)

one must take into consideration the strong possibility that this is yet another fabricated con deception

 

[glew]

IMHO vouchers will only benefit the ones that already send their kids to private schools and the ones who can almost afford it. The poor will still not be able to come up with what the vouchers don't cover. Private schools will also pick and choose who they "let in" so the ones who need it the most won't get it.

Vouchers mean that at the beginning of every school year, a voucher is provided to the school by a student...the school then submits it to the funding body...whether it be the city, county, state, or fed...at that point the school gets the money for that student...no taxes have to be raised because the funding is already in place...parents will start directing their kids to better teachers and education as a whole is improved because, by definition, a good teacher is able to teach better...unions squeal because it would be harder to cover for bad or burned out teachers...plus, bad schools will close because no one will want their kids going there...Unions can't have that now...lol...see, if teachers really cared for their students, they would want them to get the best education wouldn't they? But in order to keep the status quo, students are sacrificed to districting and whatever teacher has tenure.

 

[DaGoose]

IMHO vouchers will only benefit the ones that already send their kids to private schools and the ones who can almost afford it. The poor will still not be able to come up with what the vouchers don't cover. Private schools will also pick and choose who they "let in" so the ones who need it the most won't get it.

Vouchers mean that at the beginning of every school year, a voucher is provided to the school by a student...the school then submits it to the funding body...whether it be the city, county, state, or fed...at that point the school gets the money for that student...no taxes have to be raised because the funding is already in place...parents will start directing their kids to better teachers and education as a whole is improved because, by definition, a good teacher is able to teach better...unions squeal because it would be harder to cover for bad or burned out teachers...plus, bad schools will close because no one will want their kids going there...Unions can't have that now...lol...see, if teachers really cared for their students, they would want them to get the best education wouldn't they? But in order to keep the status quo, students are sacrificed to districting and whatever teacher has tenure.

Ok.....let's see if we can make some sense of what you just wrote.

I'm guessing since you said that the "funding is already in place" that you're talking about vouchers for public schools? What you say is fine except.......

1) Public schools wuld be able to pick and choose students since school choice is a two way street. And, of course, ALL parents will pick the current top performing schools. I could see the principal telling you, "Sorry, your kid is too stupid to come here. We pick THAT kid." So once again, the students who would benefit the most would end up losing out.

2) You're right that "good teacher is able to teach better" if he or she is in a preferred school because he or she would get the cream of the crop. The ones who are eager to learn and whose parents are involved.

3) You said "bad schools will close because no one will want their kids going there". But more than the teachers it's the students that make up the schools, right? First of all no schools will close unless you already have more schools than you need, right? Second of all those students (that no other schools want) will have no other schools to go to because all the other schools are full. So if classrooms are already crowded there won't be any schools closing to increase that problem.

4) Unions "squeal" for the same reason we all do. We all want what's best for students. There are just different ideas on how to achieve that.

Bottom line? Vouchers won't work except in very limited, controlled circumstances.

I've already said this once.....Here's a novel idea. Let's get the PARENTS involved in their childrens education!! In fact, maybe it should be MANDATED. Too many parents see the schools as nothing more than daytime babysitters.

 

[glew]

More students equal more money so schools wouldn't likely turn students away...as a counter balance...if a school expels the student, then money recieved for that student would be returned...Or keep the current rules in place regarding a students right to an education...If a voucher is valid, then the student must be accepted...

If it is all about the kids, then getting the best teachers is a win win...Those that are coasting or slacking will have to pick their game up...Is that a bad thing? It isn't for the kids.

As far as parent involvement, some parents are too involved and some aren't involved enough...you can't legislate the amount of involvement parents have...Especially now days when so many parents are concerned with being "friends" with their kids as opposed to being parents...I would rather government stay out of familie's lives...But you probably already knew that Goose