CDZ Tax Simplification, Who Will be the Losers

[william the wie]

The old adage of where you stand depends on where you sit sure applies to this thread.

Well, the tax forms I fill out aren't 'complex', there are just more of them as my sources of income multiplied, is all. Again, the vast bulk of the tax code doesn't effect most filers, so it doesn't really matter how large the code is, as most of it isn't relevant to any one individual's filings. They don't have to read but a few small booklets at most.

Most of these 'tax simplification' and 'fair tax' schemes are just attempts at shoving taxes onto payrolls and assorted high ad valorems on working stiffs purchases, not genuine 'reforms' or 'fairness'.

The old adage of where you stand depends on where you sit sure applies to this thread.

Well, the tax forms I fill out aren't 'complex', there are just more of them as my sources of income multiplied, is all. Again, the vast bulk of the tax code doesn't effect most filers, so it doesn't really matter how large the code is, as most of it isn't relevant to any one individual's filings. They don't have to read but a few small booklets at most.

Most of these 'tax simplification' and 'fair tax' schemes are just attempts at shoving taxes onto payrolls and assorted high ad valorems on working stiffs purchases, not genuine 'reforms' or 'fairness'.

The bigger problem is favoring large corporations that produce fewer jobs over small and medium companies that create most employment.

 

[FA_Q2]

The answer isn't lowering taxes any more than the answer is raising taxes...

The answer is a fair and simple tax code.

I'll know that we're close when H & R Block is no longer a household name.

The resources we spend to do the fucking yearly paperwork to live in this country makes us look stupid.

Fair and simple? Simple isn't fair

of course it is.

everyone pays the same percentage of their income period

But does everyone get the same amount of services? No

It's like going into a restaurant and everyone pays the same to eat. Yet one person gets a great meal, and someone else gets rubbish.

You really cant base tax on service. If you really wanted to base the tax code on that you would have the poor who use the vast majority of government services paying far more than the rich were.

And no, it is a false narrative that the rich use more government than the poor.

A simple tax code is the only way that it can be fair. There is no measure for government services like access to protected rights, national security and jails. Right now we have the poor paying a larger share of their income than the rich to the federal government. True simplification of the tax code will benefit not only the middle class but the poor as well. It will hose the uber rich as they are the ones that have been manipulating the code to benefit special interests.

It always amazes me that some claim simplifying the tax code will hurt the middle class and poor but then complain that Romney pays a smaller percentage than his secretary. The two concepts are entirely at odds.

But the poor don't use the vast amount of services.

You have to remember that BOTH the poor and rich use things like education. You get given an education, the country gets given an educated worked, and a business gets educated workers. So, education isn't all about the individual, it's about the country and it's about making money.

Well, no that really is false. The rich tend to pay for their education while the poor use the government for it. You shifted gears again though - you went from the rich to business.

The fact is that the poor use more government services.

What about infrastructure? Perhaps a person will use the road twice in a day, maybe a little more sometimes. How much are big corporations using the roads? Probably thousands of times a day to ship products, having employees get to work, having managers going from one place to another. All of this benefits business too.

Again conflating 2 concepts.

You think about Iraq, how much did the war and post war period cost the US?

One estimate is $1.1 trillion. Who benefited from this? It certainly wasn't the poor. The poor got shot at and killed or maimed. So who made money? Defense contractors, oil companies and shareholders. So, who should be paying for such things?

Who benefits from the stability of the country? Everyone, but the rich are able to get rich from it, so they should be paying their fair share, which is a larger share than your average Joe.\

Look at Somalia, hard to make money and become rich there. Why? There's no security, there's no decent infrastructure.
In Russia in the 1990s the Mafias were basically taking about 30-40% of a company's income just to provide for security. The smaller people needed it less, they had less to steal from, they had less reason to be a target for the mafias. In the US most companies will pay a lot less for security and get everything else for free, basically.

What fair is isn't easy to come by. However it damn well isn't everyone paying the same percentage.

So now we have moved the goal post from using government services to benefitting from them.

This is the problem with trying to base a tax rate on 'benefit' or 'use' of government - the amount of government that one uses is literally impossible to calculate particularly when you start making broad claims that simply being rich means that you benefit more. Do you want a different tax rate for the person that gets rich trading in international commodities? How about a different tax rate for those that came here after making their fortune somewhere else? In your version of 'fair' you certainly would have to.

Simple would be fair for one reason - it would not allow the wealthy to abuse the tax code to get out of paying taxes.

 

[FA_Q2]

The answer isn't lowering taxes any more than the answer is raising taxes...

The answer is a fair and simple tax code.

I'll know that we're close when H & R Block is no longer a household name.

The resources we spend to do the fucking yearly paperwork to live in this country makes us look stupid.

Fair and simple? Simple isn't fair

of course it is.

everyone pays the same percentage of their income period

But does everyone get the same amount of services? No

It's like going into a restaurant and everyone pays the same to eat. Yet one person gets a great meal, and someone else gets rubbish.

Then "services" (spending) should be limited to what is common.

The government has no business micromanaging the economy by giving tax breaks to industries and business they think deserve an advantage and the government has no business doling out welfare via a the tax code.

Talk about an invitation to fraud, corruption and abuse!

What do you mean "government has no business micromanaging the economy"? I mean, it's not that I don't agree with you, it's just that govt is there, and the people elect them, and the govt can do whatever the people want them to do.

Tax breaks in the US have become a massive joke, and shouldn't be the way they are. The EU has it right. Each country can set a tax level, but ALL companies must adhere to that tax rate. Ireland got stuffed in court because they were giving Google an easy ride.

Well, no. Here the government cannot do 'whatever the people want them to.' That is the point of the constitution - it limits what the government can do.

 

[rightwinger]

Fair and simple? Simple isn't fair

of course it is.

everyone pays the same percentage of their income period

But does everyone get the same amount of services? No

It's like going into a restaurant and everyone pays the same to eat. Yet one person gets a great meal, and someone else gets rubbish.

Then "services" (spending) should be limited to what is common.

The government has no business micromanaging the economy by giving tax breaks to industries and business they think deserve an advantage and the government has no business doling out welfare via a the tax code.

Talk about an invitation to fraud, corruption and abuse!

What do you mean "government has no business micromanaging the economy"? I mean, it's not that I don't agree with you, it's just that govt is there, and the people elect them, and the govt can do whatever the people want them to do.

Tax breaks in the US have become a massive joke, and shouldn't be the way they are. The EU has it right. Each country can set a tax level, but ALL companies must adhere to that tax rate. Ireland got stuffed in court because they were giving Google an easy ride.

Well, no. Here the government cannot do 'whatever the people want them to.' That is the point of the constitution - it limits what the government can do.

Congress can do whatever We the People want them to do

If you think they have exceeded their authority, you are free to take them to court

 

[william the wie]

Also the states that try to do as Frigidweirdo wants see massive tax flight and it will get slightly worse under a simpler tax code but that is what has been chosen by the citizens of those states.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The answer isn't lowering taxes any more than the answer is raising taxes...

The answer is a fair and simple tax code.

I'll know that we're close when H & R Block is no longer a household name.

The resources we spend to do the fucking yearly paperwork to live in this country makes us look stupid.

You should try lighting the f@rts that blow out of your bunghole and see if they flare in technicolor, if you think the US tax code can ever be simplified.

This is a typical fantasy of all non-CPA's.

It is a pipe dream fantasy driven and sustained by the fallacy of argument from total ignorance.

So all hope is lost in your book?

You have my pity.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The answer isn't lowering taxes any more than the answer is raising taxes...

The answer is a fair and simple tax code.

I'll know that we're close when H & R Block is no longer a household name.

The resources we spend to do the fucking yearly paperwork to live in this country makes us look stupid.

Fair and simple? Simple isn't fair

of course it is.

everyone pays the same percentage of their income period

But does everyone get the same amount of services? No

It's like going into a restaurant and everyone pays the same to eat. Yet one person gets a great meal, and someone else gets rubbish.

no the poor get more services

but hey if you want to go to an a la carte government service menu I'm all for it because it would cut my taxes

No, they don't.

You think with a menu you'd cut taxes? Some might, but the rich certainly wouldn't.

so the people who pay ZERO income tax don't get more from the government than someone in the 39.6% bracket

sorry not buying it

 

[Skull Pilot]

of course it is.

everyone pays the same percentage of their income period

But does everyone get the same amount of services? No

It's like going into a restaurant and everyone pays the same to eat. Yet one person gets a great meal, and someone else gets rubbish.

You really cant base tax on service. If you really wanted to base the tax code on that you would have the poor who use the vast majority of government services paying far more than the rich were.

And no, it is a false narrative that the rich use more government than the poor.

A simple tax code is the only way that it can be fair. There is no measure for government services like access to protected rights, national security and jails. Right now we have the poor paying a larger share of their income than the rich to the federal government. True simplification of the tax code will benefit not only the middle class but the poor as well. It will hose the uber rich as they are the ones that have been manipulating the code to benefit special interests.

It always amazes me that some claim simplifying the tax code will hurt the middle class and poor but then complain that Romney pays a smaller percentage than his secretary. The two concepts are entirely at odds.

But the poor don't use the vast amount of services.

You have to remember that BOTH the poor and rich use things like education. You get given an education, the country gets given an educated worked, and a business gets educated workers. So, education isn't all about the individual, it's about the country and it's about making money.

What about infrastructure? Perhaps a person will use the road twice in a day, maybe a little more sometimes. How much are big corporations using the roads? Probably thousands of times a day to ship products, having employees get to work, having managers going from one place to another. All of this benefits business too.

You think about Iraq, how much did the war and post war period cost the US?

One estimate is $1.1 trillion. Who benefited from this? It certainly wasn't the poor. The poor got shot at and killed or maimed. So who made money? Defense contractors, oil companies and shareholders. So, who should be paying for such things?

Who benefits from the stability of the country? Everyone, but the rich are able to get rich from it, so they should be paying their fair share, which is a larger share than your average Joe.\

Look at Somalia, hard to make money and become rich there. Why? There's no security, there's no decent infrastructure.
In Russia in the 1990s the Mafias were basically taking about 30-40% of a company's income just to provide for security. The smaller people needed it less, they had less to steal from, they had less reason to be a target for the mafias. In the US most companies will pay a lot less for security and get everything else for free, basically.

What fair is isn't easy to come by. However it damn well isn't everyone paying the same percentage.

you don't seem to realize that commercial freight pays far more in taxes and fees than does the average private commuter

just ask a private long haul trucker how many different state and federal fees he pays

What makes you think I don't realize this? Because I didn't say a cow shits out of its ass, you could also assume I didn't realize that, right? Do I have to state everything I know EVERY TIME I mention something, otherwise I get told I don't know it?

you're the one BITCHING about big corporations using roads to move freight while the average idiot only uses a road once or twice a day and those rich corporations don't pay their "FAIR SHARE" whatever that is since you can't say. So you see it's obvious to me that you don't know how much people pay to move freight over the highways

 

[AVG-JOE]

A consensus seems to be forming that simplification will disproportionately harm blue states because of increased tax flight. However compounding rates of tax flight have been with us for half a century so why the Hysteria now?

Anyone bitching about a true simplification of the tax code is taking advantage of the complicated bullshit we currently employ to avoid paying their fair share.

The tax code isn't complex for the majority of filers now. In fact it's is simple for most. I file an average of 14 forms every year, and have no problems with understanding them. Time consuming doesn't equal 'complex', and of course illiterates are going to have 'problems' with anything, not just from trying to read tax booklets and keeping up with the latest rulings and changes. Some companies do face special problems, mostly from hearing some bullshit from a 'tax expert' who doesn't know what he's talking about and they get into trouble later from attempts at cheating, but that isn't because of 'complexity', it's because of tards trying to be clever when they aren't capable of being clever.

I've read all of the so-called 'Fair Tax' bills, and they're all jokes, and all of them are nothing but attempts to shove paying taxes off on the least politically influential demographics and the least able to afford paying more, nothing 'fair' about them at all, just more stupid ideological idiocy. Corporate lobbyists have made the tax code seem 'complex' and having thousands of pages, in order to benefit the corporations paying them to lobby Congress, the more complex it is the better for them at the top of the food chain buying themselves hundreds of loopholes and special industry exemptions to hide income and get out of paying anything at all, not closet commies and socialists out to 'destroy capitalism n stuff'; commie and socialists are just as clueless as your average illiterate New Guinea tribesman about 'tax fairness' and other memes. Just go to the IRS website and see all of the 'private rulings' if you don't believe it's business people themselves who are mainly responsible for the bulk of the tax code.

If you're really worried about taxes then you should be far more concerned about the loosening of GAAP standards, both national and international agreements, beginning with Reagan's Presidency right up to today and how they distort markets and financial statements. Tax reform' isn't even in the top ten things you should be worrying about re accounting and financial issues. Without sound accounting and practices the rest of the stuff is merely fantasy.

If that's true, please explain the profitability of H & R Block and the rest of their industry.

The resources We spend on doing the paperwork to live here is making us look stupid from space. It's no wonder we get so few visitors....

 

[HenryBHough]

There can be no such thing as "fair taxes" so long as there is even one person who contributes nothing.

 

[Skull Pilot]

As a rule.... simplified tax rates help the rich and force the poor and middle class to make up the difference

Haven't seen a simplified tax plan that doesn't

yeah and it's "fair" to let 10% of earners pay more than the bottom 50% of earners combined

 

[AVG-JOE]

The people and corporations currently not paying their fair share.

define "fair share"

Many rich and corporations get a lot from government but end up not paying for what they get.

Step one is to establish a fair and simple tax code so we know what our budget will bear... step two is to establish what We, The Peeps are willing to spend on various common needs like defense, infrastructure and education.

education should be left to the states since it was not a Constitutionally granted power of the federal government

I agree. The closer the decisions are to the communities that need / want an educated populace the better.

But that doesn't mean We shouldn't support both education and R&D from the federal level.

 

[AVG-JOE]

As a rule.... simplified tax rates help the rich and force the poor and middle class to make up the difference

Haven't seen a simplified tax plan that doesn't

A single rate tax code with a single deduction is fair, simple and would not rape the poor and lower middle classes.

18% on every dime over $40,000 on every income.

Everyone gets their first $40,000 tax free. No more subsidizing housing and other deductions for the rich / no more doling out welfare via the tax code in the form of credits.

No matter your income, you file your return on a 3 x 5 post card using the calculator on your phone in about 10 minutes.

 

[AVG-JOE]

and you have yet to define what exactly a FAIR SHARE is

Again, I know. I can't tell you what a fair share is. All I can tell you is that a fair share is going to be based around how much people benefit from the govt.

Fair is the same rate for everyone and the same deduction for everyone.

If the government needs more money - raise the rate on EVERYONE. If the government is flush, lower the rate for EVERYONE.

Fair and simple.

 

[AVG-JOE]

There can be no such thing as "fair taxes" so long as there is even one person who contributes nothing.

There are PLENTY of commerce taxes for those making less than $40,000 to make them in to genuine taxpayers.

AND... everyone would have an economic goal of becoming an "income tax payer".

 

[william the wie]

An unfair tax is that the residents of FL, TX and other states w/o an income tax have to subsidize the idiots living in state with such.

Should this be another thread?

 

[FA_Q2]

There can be no such thing as "fair taxes" so long as there is even one person who contributes nothing.

There are PLENTY of commerce taxes for those making less than $40,000 to make them in to genuine taxpayers.

AND... everyone would have an economic goal of becoming an "income tax payer".

That is the prime problem as well - the vast majority of taxes are hidden. No taxes should be hidden - everyone should know exactly how much they are paying to support governmental programs.

 

[rightwinger]

As a rule.... simplified tax rates help the rich and force the poor and middle class to make up the difference

Haven't seen a simplified tax plan that doesn't

yeah and it's "fair" to let 10% of earners pay more than the bottom 50% of earners combined

It is fair when that ten percent has 90 percent of the wealth

 

[rightwinger]

An unfair tax is that the residents of FL, TX and other states w/o an income tax have to subsidize the idiots living in state with such.

Should this be another thread?

State income tax pays for state functions

 

[Indeependent]

Unemployed Tax Accountants will be very happy.