Tao of personal leadership

[proud_savagette]

The federal government is limited via the constitution in what authority it has. Everything else is reserved to the states.

i think you are missing the basic point here. please also point out what it was i said that was "wrong."

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
i think you are missing the basic point here. please also point out what it was i said that was "wrong."

you said that lincoln, in his address, used the constitution to show he had the authority to prevent the southern states from seceding. I said that was wrong. Heres why:

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


at no point in the constitution does it give express authority for the president to stop secession.

also, anyone running around saying the things you had in your second post would not pass the legal definitions of crimes such as slander etc..

 

[proud_savagette]

also, anyone running around saying the things you had in your second post would not pass the legal definitions of crimes such as slander etc..

well, apparently someone thought so.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
well, apparently someone thought so.

but was he in the right? the constitution and supreme court did not agree with him but he went against it anyway.

 

[proud_savagette]

In Article 6 Section 3 of the Constitution it clearly states that "the states shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution." They agreed to be part of the Union forever. By seceding, they were breaking the oath they took 72 years beforehand. Then, since they couldn't legally secede, there were also breaking the law stated in Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution that states "No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or Confederation." Obviously, in order to secede from the Union and form their own country, they needed to make treaties and alliances with other states. Article 1 Section 10 also says that, "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, keep troops, or ships of war in times of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger." The South was keeping troops, and they attacked and captured Fort Sumter, which was basically an act of war against the United States.
In Article 4 Section 3, it states that "Congress will make rules and regulations for territories and for property of the federal government." The state or territory on its own cannot create the rules for itself. Therefore, when the South seceded, they were taking the property of the federal government since they didn't get permission from Congress to secede or buy the land.
The South believed that Lincoln would abolish slavery if elected president. They had no reason to think this. In his inaugural speech, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." This proves that Lincoln wasn't a threat to slavery. The South was being irrational to assume that Lincoln would abolish slavery. He also said, "The states have their status in the Union and they have no other legal status. If they break from this, they can only do so against law and by revolution." Lincoln is clearly stating that secession is illegal.

All in all, the South had no legal, or even moral right to secede. This is proven in the Constitution and also in Lincoln's inaugural speech. Secession is illegal and immoral.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Another way of preserving the union would have been to capitulate to the southern states on the slavery issue. He took the high road. It was about slavery.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Another way of preserving the union would have been to capitulate to the southern states on the slavery issue. He took the high road. It was about slavery.

are you calling lincoln a liar?

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
In Article 6 Section 3 of the Constitution it clearly states that "the states shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution." They agreed to be part of the Union forever. By seceding, they were breaking the oath they took 72 years beforehand. Then, since they couldn't legally secede, there were also breaking the law stated in Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution that states "No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or Confederation." Obviously, in order to secede from the Union and form their own country, they needed to make treaties and alliances with other states. Article 1 Section 10 also says that, "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, keep troops, or ships of war in times of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger." The South was keeping troops, and they attacked and captured Fort Sumter, which was basically an act of war against the United States.
In Article 4 Section 3, it states that "Congress will make rules and regulations for territories and for property of the federal government." The state or territory on its own cannot create the rules for itself. Therefore, when the South seceded, they were taking the property of the federal government since they didn't get permission from Congress to secede or buy the land.
The South believed that Lincoln would abolish slavery if elected president. They had no reason to think this. In his inaugural speech, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." This proves that Lincoln wasn't a threat to slavery. The South was being irrational to assume that Lincoln would abolish slavery. He also said, "The states have their status in the Union and they have no other legal status. If they break from this, they can only do so against law and by revolution." Lincoln is clearly stating that secession is illegal.

All in all, the South had no legal, or even moral right to secede. This is proven in the Constitution and also in Lincoln's inaugural speech. Secession is illegal and immoral.

sorry hon, I disagree. so do many others. the state is not owned by the federal government, although certain areas within the state are. Also, can you show me where in the constitution that it says a state that joins the union is forbidden to secede?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
are you calling lincoln a liar?

Why did the south wish to secede in the first place?


slavery.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Why did the south wish to secede in the first place?


slavery.

Something to consider, it was more than slavery. PS No matter how much you agree with the Southern argument, remember the Union Won!

http://www.civilwarhome.com/gordoncauses.htm

As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty per cent. of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union.

The South maintained with the depth of religious conviction that the Union formed under the Constitution was a Union of consent and not of force; that the original States were not the creatures but the creators of the Union; that these States had gained their independence, their freedom, and their sovereignty from the mother country, and had not surrendered these on entering the Union; that by the express terms of the Constitution all rights and powers not delegated were reserved to the States; and the South challenged the North to find one trace of authority in that Constitution for invading and coercing a sovereign State.

The North, on the other hand, maintained with the utmost confidence in the correctness of her position that the Union formed under the Constitution was intended to be perpetual; that sovereignty was a unit and could not be divided; that whether or not there was any express power granted in the Constitution for invading a State, the right of self-preservation was inherent in all governments; that the life of the Union was essential to the life of liberty; or, in the words of Webster, "liberty and union are one and inseparable."