Stop lying about solar .....

justoffal

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To do a true cost comparison lets talk about being off the grid as opposed to being on the grid...the mixed systems hide too much.

So....you need roughly a 20 kw system to come off totally and have anything at all that's useful to you IMO....of course there's room for preference but let's start at 20KW.
the Utilities will only allow a 10kw system on your house btw so if you want a bigger one it cannot be attached to the utility power meter. There are actually some pretty good reasons for that but that is for another post. If you can install this yourself you're looking at about Thirty thousand in parts...remember that these things only operate at peak for about five years after that the curve of degeneration due to crystallization of the photo voltaic components begins to take a larger and larger cut with the losses being in the five to ten percent per year accrual by the end of the 20 year self describe cycle life. Our 2 meg system at work is five years old and already maxes out at about 1.4 megs on a really good sunny day. Scary.

Do you spend thirty thousand dollars on electricity in 20 years? OK....lets divide 30,000 by 240 months.... we get 125 bucks a month. Not bad considering that most electric bills run at least twice that these days. But what are you actually getting and remember now this is without the installation fee which is easily 1k per Kilowatt of installation so you can basically double the 125 if you have it installed then of course there's loan interest and the fact that you cannot sell a house with a solar package on it unless the new buyer also buys the solar package...and so on and so forth. Now I'm not saying it's bad but I'm saying that it is oversold and not what you think it is. Remember that these things also break down and need repair....oh btw....it's expensive. Do you smell that odor from the Stable yet? Wait...it get's better.

To run an electric clothes dryer for an average family is about the same as running four 1000 watt hair dryers ( some models six ) for an hour. That's four to six Kilowatt hours if you can do it when the sun is beating down on your 20 kw installation...and electric stove is more....so if you're going off grid I recommend Gas Stove and Gas Dryer or a large green house type building that lets' sun in during the winter so you can hang our clothe up. EEEEGADS! Did I just say gas stove and gas dryer? The gods of solar will not be pleased! Of course if the sun is not out you're out of luck both ways.

Remember that a 20 KW installation is probably only going to produce 15 to 17 on the best day and may once in a while do better depending on the time of year and the Sun's angle and of course the age of the panels. So to recap if you purchase good panels.....and have them installed you probably being paying about 200 bucks a month for the next 20 years for spotty service at best if you're off the grid. Don't want spotty service? Well then stay connected to the Grid too....but then you will have two bills and they will probably total more than just one alone.

Oh but can't I sell back to the grid on good days? Well yes for now...but I wouldn't count on it going forward and you don't really get that much out of it...it sure as hell is not going to cover your payment so this idea that you will bet getting " Free Electricity " is bullshit actually.... to be fair I do know some people who have spent in the fifty to sixty thousand range who actually do sell to the grid an make a profit on some months.....but that is not typical trust me.

One thing I am looking at is the Solar AC units that are totally self contained. You get the unit and the panels in a package....a good package is about $3500 bucks for a 12,000 btu unit...you can get a DC unit or an AC unit that uses an inverter.....either way they both perform well when the Sun is high...which is exactly when you want them. If you're willing to make the investment up front for one or two of them I think it's actually worth it.

JO
 

progressive hunter

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To do a true cost comparison lets talk about being off the grid as opposed to being on the grid...the mixed systems hide too much.

So....you need roughly a 20 kw system to come off totally and have anything at all that's useful to you IMO....of course there's room for preference but let's start at 20KW.
the Utilities will only allow a 10kw system on your house btw so if you want a bigger one it cannot be attached to the utility power meter. There are actually some pretty good reasons for that but that is for another post. If you can install this yourself you're looking at about Thirty thousand in parts...remember that these things only operate at peak for about five years after that the curve of degeneration due to crystallization of the photo voltaic components begins to take a larger and larger cut with the losses being in the five to ten percent per year accrual by the end of the 20 year self describe cycle life. Our 2 meg system at work is five years old and already maxes out at about 1.4 megs on a really good sunny day. Scary.

Do you spend thirty thousand dollars on electricity in 20 years? OK....lets divide 30,000 by 240 months.... we get 125 bucks a month. Not bad considering that most electric bills run at least twice that these days. But what are you actually getting and remember now this is without the installation fee which is easily 1k per Kilowatt of installation so you can basically double the 125 if you have it installed then of course there's loan interest and the fact that you cannot sell a house with a solar package on it unless the new buyer also buys the solar package...and so on and so forth. Now I'm not saying it's bad but I'm saying that it is oversold and not what you think it is. Remember that these things also break down and need repair....oh btw....it's expensive. Do you smell that odor from the Stable yet? Wait...it get's better.

To run an electric clothes dryer for an average family is about the same as running four 1000 watt hair dryers ( some models six ) for an hour. That's four to six Kilowatt hours if you can do it when the sun is beating down on your 20 kw installation...and electric stove is more....so if you're going off grid I recommend Gas Stove and Gas Dryer or a large green house type building that lets' sun in during the winter so you can hang our clothe up. EEEEGADS! Did I just say gas stove and gas dryer? The gods of solar will not be pleased! Of course if the sun is not out you're out of luck both ways.

Remember that a 20 KW installation is probably only going to produce 15 to 17 on the best day and may once in a while do better depending on the time of year and the Sun's angle and of course the age of the panels. So to recap if you purchase good panels.....and have them installed you probably being paying about 200 bucks a month for the next 20 years for spotty service at best if you're off the grid. Don't want spotty service? Well then stay connected to the Grid too....but then you will have two bills and they will probably total more than just one alone.

Oh but can't I sell back to the grid on good days? Well yes for now...but I wouldn't count on it going forward and you don't really get that much out of it...it sure as hell is not going to cover your payment so this idea that you will bet getting " Free Electricity " is bullshit actually.... to be fair I do know some people who have spent in the fifty to sixty thousand range who actually do sell to the grid an make a profit on some months.....but that is not typical trust me.

One thing I am looking at is the Solar AC units that are totally self contained. You get the unit and the panels in a package....a good package is about $3500 bucks for a 12,000 btu unit...you can get a DC unit or an AC unit that uses an inverter.....either way they both perform well when the Sun is high...which is exactly when you want them. If you're willing to make the investment up front for one or two of them I think it's actually worth it.

JO
this guys got a lot of good info

 
OP
J

justoffal

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To do a true cost comparison lets talk about being off the grid as opposed to being on the grid...the mixed systems hide too much.

So....you need roughly a 20 kw system to come off totally and have anything at all that's useful to you IMO....of course there's room for preference but let's start at 20KW.
the Utilities will only allow a 10kw system on your house btw so if you want a bigger one it cannot be attached to the utility power meter. There are actually some pretty good reasons for that but that is for another post. If you can install this yourself you're looking at about Thirty thousand in parts...remember that these things only operate at peak for about five years after that the curve of degeneration due to crystallization of the photo voltaic components begins to take a larger and larger cut with the losses being in the five to ten percent per year accrual by the end of the 20 year self describe cycle life. Our 2 meg system at work is five years old and already maxes out at about 1.4 megs on a really good sunny day. Scary.

Do you spend thirty thousand dollars on electricity in 20 years? OK....lets divide 30,000 by 240 months.... we get 125 bucks a month. Not bad considering that most electric bills run at least twice that these days. But what are you actually getting and remember now this is without the installation fee which is easily 1k per Kilowatt of installation so you can basically double the 125 if you have it installed then of course there's loan interest and the fact that you cannot sell a house with a solar package on it unless the new buyer also buys the solar package...and so on and so forth. Now I'm not saying it's bad but I'm saying that it is oversold and not what you think it is. Remember that these things also break down and need repair....oh btw....it's expensive. Do you smell that odor from the Stable yet? Wait...it get's better.

To run an electric clothes dryer for an average family is about the same as running four 1000 watt hair dryers ( some models six ) for an hour. That's four to six Kilowatt hours if you can do it when the sun is beating down on your 20 kw installation...and electric stove is more....so if you're going off grid I recommend Gas Stove and Gas Dryer or a large green house type building that lets' sun in during the winter so you can hang our clothe up. EEEEGADS! Did I just say gas stove and gas dryer? The gods of solar will not be pleased! Of course if the sun is not out you're out of luck both ways.

Remember that a 20 KW installation is probably only going to produce 15 to 17 on the best day and may once in a while do better depending on the time of year and the Sun's angle and of course the age of the panels. So to recap if you purchase good panels.....and have them installed you probably being paying about 200 bucks a month for the next 20 years for spotty service at best if you're off the grid. Don't want spotty service? Well then stay connected to the Grid too....but then you will have two bills and they will probably total more than just one alone.

Oh but can't I sell back to the grid on good days? Well yes for now...but I wouldn't count on it going forward and you don't really get that much out of it...it sure as hell is not going to cover your payment so this idea that you will bet getting " Free Electricity " is bullshit actually.... to be fair I do know some people who have spent in the fifty to sixty thousand range who actually do sell to the grid an make a profit on some months.....but that is not typical trust me.

One thing I am looking at is the Solar AC units that are totally self contained. You get the unit and the panels in a package....a good package is about $3500 bucks for a 12,000 btu unit...you can get a DC unit or an AC unit that uses an inverter.....either way they both perform well when the Sun is high...which is exactly when you want them. If you're willing to make the investment up front for one or two of them I think it's actually worth it.

JO
this guys got a lot of good info

Yes...I have seen his stuff he is actually very good.

JO
 

Rambunctious

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Toxic materials and chemicals are used to make the photovoltaic cells that convert sunlight into energy....Solar thermal systems use potentially hazardous fluids to transfer heat....
You can't get away from it folks...if you want to flip a switch and get light warmth and TV...it is going to pollute.....one way or the other...
Like sulfuric acid pools from EV battery production...pools we don't know what to do with so we barrel it and bury it.....just think what a nation like China is doing...maybe dumping it in the ocean....
 

HereWeGoAgain

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Toxic materials and chemicals are used to make the photovoltaic cells that convert sunlight into energy....Solar thermal systems use potentially hazardous fluids to transfer heat....
You can't get away from it folks...if you want to flip a switch and get light warmth and TV...it is going to pollute.....one way or the other...
Like sulfuric acid pools from EV battery production...pools we don't know what to do with so we barrel it and bury it.....just think what a nation like China is doing...maybe dumping it in the ocean....
I can see solar for a small cabin in the woods where you cant get power without huge expense.
 

Rambunctious

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Toxic materials and chemicals are used to make the photovoltaic cells that convert sunlight into energy....Solar thermal systems use potentially hazardous fluids to transfer heat....
You can't get away from it folks...if you want to flip a switch and get light warmth and TV...it is going to pollute.....one way or the other...
Like sulfuric acid pools from EV battery production...pools we don't know what to do with so we barrel it and bury it.....just think what a nation like China is doing...maybe dumping it in the ocean....
I can see solar for a small cabin in the woods where you cant get power without huge expense.
Of course it has its place so does wind power but we will still need fossil fuels for a long time...and the point is as you know all energy sources have its pollution down sides...I have panels on my motorhome....but right now they are not getting much sun....
 

HereWeGoAgain

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Toxic materials and chemicals are used to make the photovoltaic cells that convert sunlight into energy....Solar thermal systems use potentially hazardous fluids to transfer heat....
You can't get away from it folks...if you want to flip a switch and get light warmth and TV...it is going to pollute.....one way or the other...
Like sulfuric acid pools from EV battery production...pools we don't know what to do with so we barrel it and bury it.....just think what a nation like China is doing...maybe dumping it in the ocean....
I can see solar for a small cabin in the woods where you cant get power without huge expense.
Of course it has its place so does wind power but we will still need fossil fuels for a long time...and the point is as you know all energy sources have its pollution down sides...I have panels on my motorhome....but right now they are not getting much sun....
I'm still waiting for the toaster sized nuclear reactor.
 

DudleySmith

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I can make more than enough with the $30 K up front costs to pay for the electricity the solar generates, and not have to wait 15-20 years to break even. Just buying necessities ahead of the inflation cycle would bring a better savings, like barn full of toilet paper and oatmeal or something.

Nuclear is by fr the best option, but only if the plants are built by reputable professional contractors, which means French or Germans and absolutely no American contractors anywhere near the building site.
 

Death Angel

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My big problem is being tied to my local electric utility.
Soon I will buy my first 100 w panel. I plan on buying several. I want to experiment by using only solar. My needs are simple, and I plan on using solar for my basic electrical needs and probably a pellet stove for heating in the coldest winter months.

Solar is ideal for personal energy independence-- getting off grid
 

fncceo

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But ... this is how things get done. Follow the playbook.

1. Step one: Flood the media with feel good stories about how wind and solar power is cheap and will save us money and the planet at the same time. Ignore the part about how there is no viable technology available to STORE the power when the sun isn't out or the wind isn't blowing (or blowing too hard).

2. Step two: Heavily subsidize the installation of home and commercial solar to make it seem cheap to the average person. Make people believe solar is cheap.

3. Step three: When people start to wonder why, after installing all this solar, we still haven't made the planet cleaner or made any progress on the Climate Change issue, THEN you blame "wicked conservatives" and "big oil" who hate trees and bunnies and only want to use fossil fuels because they hate children.

4. Step four: Get support for legislation that kills oil, gas, and coal (as well as non-polluting nuclear) to punish those evil planet-haters ... despite the fact that neither solar nor wind can currently come anywhere close to feeding our infrastructure requirements.

5. Follow-up: If people start complaining about blackouts and soaring energy prices, just blame the same evil planet-haters because they took too long to get on the wind and solar agenda.
 

Oddball

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To do a true cost comparison lets talk about being off the grid as opposed to being on the grid...the mixed systems hide too much.

So....you need roughly a 20 kw system to come off totally and have anything at all that's useful to you IMO....of course there's room for preference but let's start at 20KW.
the Utilities will only allow a 10kw system on your house btw so if you want a bigger one it cannot be attached to the utility power meter. There are actually some pretty good reasons for that but that is for another post. If you can install this yourself you're looking at about Thirty thousand in parts...remember that these things only operate at peak for about five years after that the curve of degeneration due to crystallization of the photo voltaic components begins to take a larger and larger cut with the losses being in the five to ten percent per year accrual by the end of the 20 year self describe cycle life. Our 2 meg system at work is five years old and already maxes out at about 1.4 megs on a really good sunny day. Scary.

Do you spend thirty thousand dollars on electricity in 20 years? OK....lets divide 30,000 by 240 months.... we get 125 bucks a month. Not bad considering that most electric bills run at least twice that these days. But what are you actually getting and remember now this is without the installation fee which is easily 1k per Kilowatt of installation so you can basically double the 125 if you have it installed then of course there's loan interest and the fact that you cannot sell a house with a solar package on it unless the new buyer also buys the solar package...and so on and so forth. Now I'm not saying it's bad but I'm saying that it is oversold and not what you think it is. Remember that these things also break down and need repair....oh btw....it's expensive. Do you smell that odor from the Stable yet? Wait...it get's better.

To run an electric clothes dryer for an average family is about the same as running four 1000 watt hair dryers ( some models six ) for an hour. That's four to six Kilowatt hours if you can do it when the sun is beating down on your 20 kw installation...and electric stove is more....so if you're going off grid I recommend Gas Stove and Gas Dryer or a large green house type building that lets' sun in during the winter so you can hang our clothe up. EEEEGADS! Did I just say gas stove and gas dryer? The gods of solar will not be pleased! Of course if the sun is not out you're out of luck both ways.

Remember that a 20 KW installation is probably only going to produce 15 to 17 on the best day and may once in a while do better depending on the time of year and the Sun's angle and of course the age of the panels. So to recap if you purchase good panels.....and have them installed you probably being paying about 200 bucks a month for the next 20 years for spotty service at best if you're off the grid. Don't want spotty service? Well then stay connected to the Grid too....but then you will have two bills and they will probably total more than just one alone.

Oh but can't I sell back to the grid on good days? Well yes for now...but I wouldn't count on it going forward and you don't really get that much out of it...it sure as hell is not going to cover your payment so this idea that you will bet getting " Free Electricity " is bullshit actually.... to be fair I do know some people who have spent in the fifty to sixty thousand range who actually do sell to the grid an make a profit on some months.....but that is not typical trust me.

One thing I am looking at is the Solar AC units that are totally self contained. You get the unit and the panels in a package....a good package is about $3500 bucks for a 12,000 btu unit...you can get a DC unit or an AC unit that uses an inverter.....either way they both perform well when the Sun is high...which is exactly when you want them. If you're willing to make the investment up front for one or two of them I think it's actually worth it.

JO
Environmentally unfriendly heavy metals mining by Chinese slaves...Useless when the sun doesn't shine.....Limited useful lifespans....Unrecyclable.

We who are even moderately aware of economic concept recognize the tradeoffs...And the tradeoffs of solar don't add up.
 

Angelo

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I can make more than enough with the $30 K up front costs to pay for the electricity the solar generates, and not have to wait 15-20 years to break even. Just buying necessities ahead of the inflation cycle would bring a better savings, like barn full of toilet paper and oatmeal or something.

Nuclear is by fr the best option, but only if the plants are built by reputable professional contractors, which means French or Germans and absolutely no American contractors anywhere near the building site.
Geothermal looks promising also, wherever available.
 

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