Spend or Save?

[antagon]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

 

[william the wie]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

Neither, China and Japan are in deep trouble. Europe is a demographic disaster zone and things will get worse there no matter what. The US will be forced into austerity due to a lack of domestic savings. lose-lose no matter what.

 

[Oddball]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

Gubmint: Austerity.
Private enterprise: Investment.

Any time that any one in gubmint says "investment", check your wallet into the nearest safe deposit box.

 

[editec]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

If our societies were identical, then asking that question might make sense.

But as they're different in multiple ways, each of which effects the economy, there might be different winning (or losing) approaches for each nation

For instance...Germany's is trying an austerity approach, but their unemployment rate actually went down. Germany decreased average weekly hours so that people wouldn't be laid off.

The USA cannot even attempt such a plan.

So...how do you compare different nations and make sense of it?

Economics isn't like the physical sciences.

One formula of success or failure does not fit all

Each national economy is unique. And over time even the same national economy changes, too -- as multiple conditions within that economy change, or multiple conditions outside of that economy, change.

Hence, one approach might work under one conditionic cicumstance, and totally fail under another circumstance even within the same nation.

Again, that's another reason economics is called the DISMAL science.

 

[Samson]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

"Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach....."

Huh? I think you're 70 years behind on this statement....what "colonial gains?"

At any rate I guess the best thing to do under these economic circumstances is to write incomprehensible statements, and : "side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture."

 

[antagon]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

"Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach....."

Huh? I think you're 70 years behind on this statement....what "colonial gains?"

not everyone was broke in the wealth-depraved post-war european economic environment. burgeoning industrialists were ruined, but since that time, those holding colonial riches dominated the economy on that continent. that well has dried up and the value of savings hence outweighs that of industry and commerce in terms of european political influence. this is most notable in the UK, but such old, stale money influences many other european nations in ways not comparable to the US.

i think you haven't scrutinized the last 70 years sufficiently.

At any rate I guess the best thing to do under these economic circumstances is to write incomprehensible statements, and : "side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture."

i'd simplify for those who find my statement incomprehensible: the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur.

 

[antagon]

If our societies were identical, then asking that question might make sense.

But as they're different in multiple ways, each of which effects the economy, there might be different winning (or losing) approaches for each nation

For instance...Germany's is trying an austerity approach, but their unemployment rate actually went down. Germany decreased average weekly hours so that people wouldn't be laid off.

The USA cannot even attempt such a plan.

So...how do you compare different nations and make sense of it?

Economics isn't like the physical sciences.

One formula of success or failure does not fit all

Each national economy is unique. And over time even the same national economy changes, too -- as multiple conditions within that economy change, or multiple conditions outside of that economy, change.

Hence, one approach might work under one conditionic cicumstance, and totally fail under another circumstance even within the same nation.

Again, that's another reason economics is called the DISMAL science.

i'd agree that there's conditions to economic policy, but i feel the idea of choking an economy in a recovery survives all these conditions, netting the same or similar effect in all economies from bangladesh to belgium.

it is yet to be seen if this is hot air or if these economies will implement their threatened austerity measures. if they do, particularly to the degree which the UK intends, i think the result will be a vindication for those who feel the basis of conservative economic theory is from the ass end of a steer.

 

[antagon]

Gubmint: Austerity.
Private enterprise: Investment.

Any time that any one in gubmint says "investment", check your wallet into the nearest safe deposit box.

i see shit differently, man. i pay taxes. if the government declares that it is going to raise taxes and cut spending to balance its books amid impaired private investment, i'll be pissed. we already bought our tickets during the expansion and peak, so during the contraction and recovery, the government ought to put on the show.

 

[Samson]

The centerpiece of the recent economic summits is the debate between austerity and investment as the righteous path in our current economic climate. No doubt, this is a debate which has been played out here on the USMB well before the G8/G20. I side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture. Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach. Jobs, interest rates and a double-dip which may reverberate internationally hang in the balance.

Who’s got the winning horse in the race?

"Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach....."

Huh? I think you're 70 years behind on this statement....what "colonial gains?"

not everyone was broke in the wealth-depraved post-war european economic environment. burgeoning industrialists were ruined, but since that time, those holding colonial riches dominated the economy on that continent. that well has dried up and the value of savings hence outweighs that of industry and commerce in terms of european political influence. this is most notable in the UK, but such old, stale money influences many other european nations in ways not comparable to the US.

i think you haven't scrutinized the last 70 years sufficiently.

At any rate I guess the best thing to do under these economic circumstances is to write incomprehensible statements, and : "side with the US and the world’s vibrant economies in support of the need to invest in the economic recovery and manage monetary policy in the defense of the national economy at this juncture."

i'd simplify for those who find my statement incomprehensible: the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur.

You do realize that the sun has set on the British Empire for quite some time?

"the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur."

This really is slightly less incomprehensible than the initial try

 

[william the wie]

Russia has tanked and China is tanking, Brazil is so opaque even Brazilians can't explain it intelligibly to each other.

 

[antagon]

You do realize that the sun has set on the British Empire for quite some time?

"the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur."

This really is slightly less incomprehensible than the initial try

get a grasp on history and bump up your reading comprehension, samson.

 

[antagon]

Russia has tanked and China is tanking, Brazil is so opaque even Brazilians can't explain it intelligibly to each other.

maybe you could start by defining your 'tanked', and where that would put other international economies.

 

[sparky]

Gubmint: Austerity.
Private enterprise: Investment.

Any time that any one in gubmint says "investment", check your wallet into the nearest safe deposit box.

i see shit differently, man. i pay taxes. if the government declares that it is going to raise taxes and cut spending to balance its books amid impaired private investment, i'll be pissed. we already bought our tickets during the expansion and peak, so during the contraction and recovery, the government ought to put on the show.

well they are

they're showing that the fortune 500's get all the socialism they desire, while small biz is held to the usual capitalist constraints

~S~

 

[sparky]

Russia has tanked and China is tanking, Brazil is so opaque even Brazilians can't explain it intelligibly to each other.

maybe you could start by defining your 'tanked', and where that would put other international economies.

imho, it's the dif bettween an audited system, and one that is not

~S~

 

[william the wie]

Russia has tanked and China is tanking, Brazil is so opaque even Brazilians can't explain it intelligibly to each other.

maybe you could start by defining your 'tanked', and where that would put other international economies.

imho, it's the dif bettween an audited system, and one that is not

~S~

largely true. While the Russian sovereign default was in 1998, private investors were able to take part in the real estate boom until 2008 since then it has been having serious problems with the Ukrained, Belarus and others. China has been financed by internal savings since the 80s and stopped issuing audited reports in the 90s when the numbers made it clear that everything in China was in technical default. Jim Jubak on MSN has done many reports on China. Brazil is probably not yet in technical default but who knows?

 

[sparky]

i like Jubak too Will

in fact, i was on the 'aduit the fed' bandwagon for a while , until i realized revealing the shell game might not be the best thing for us right now.....

~S~

 

[antagon]

maybe you could start by defining your 'tanked', and where that would put other international economies.

imho, it's the dif bettween an audited system, and one that is not

~S~

largely true. While the Russian sovereign default was in 1998, private investors were able to take part in the real estate boom until 2008 since then it has been having serious problems with the Ukrained, Belarus and others. China has been financed by internal savings since the 80s and stopped issuing audited reports in the 90s when the numbers made it clear that everything in China was in technical default. Jim Jubak on MSN has done many reports on China. Brazil is probably not yet in technical default but who knows?

the problem that i have with high grounds seized by 'audits' and supposed transparency is that they don't support the certainty which many (perhaps you guys) associate with the economic metrics under consideration. to wit: US monetary policy, unemployment metrics in any given country (particularly in western europe), and the GDP estimates themselves. these metrics are only ball-park accurate, and maintain an apples to oranges compatibility nation to nation. do audits afford credibility? is there any shred of rational concern over chinese technical insolvency today?

looking qualitatively at russia, china and brazil, they have all of the characteristics of developing/semi-developed economies, but that includes an onus on supporting growth. despite america's decidedly developed economy, growth is essential for our economy in ways toward which many western european countries have demonstrated apathy.

where some feel that european policies should be taken up in the US, or criticize the US for not jumping on the EU austerity bandwagon, i think these differences lend insight to our policy.

 

[Samson]

You do realize that the sun has set on the British Empire for quite some time?

"the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur."

This really is slightly less incomprehensible than the initial try

get a grasp on history and bump up your reading comprehension, samson.

If this is supposed to be some sort of evidence of current European Colonialism to support your absurd statement in the OP:

"Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach....."

Then you'd better edit out the dates, almost all of which are over 70 years old.

After you delete the dates, enroll in English 101 "Writing."

 

[Samson]

You do realize that the sun has set on the British Empire for quite some time?

"the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur."

This really is slightly less incomprehensible than the initial try

get a grasp on history and bump up your reading comprehension, samson.

If this is supposed to be some sort of evidence of current European Colonialism to support your absurd statement in the OP:

"Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach....."

Then you'd better edit out the dates, almost all of which are over 40 years old.

After you delete the dates, enroll in English 101 "Writing."

 

[antagon]

You do realize that the sun has set on the British Empire for quite some time?

"the US, China, Russia, Brazil - vibrant economies - suggest stimulus and monetary intervention. i concur."

This really is slightly less incomprehensible than the initial try

get a grasp on history and bump up your reading comprehension, samson.

If this is supposed to be some sort of evidence of current European Colonialism to support your absurd statement in the OP:

"Europe’s stagnating dinosaur economies aim to protect their colonial gains with their alternative, decidedly conservative approach....."

Then you'd better edit out the dates, almost all of which are over 40 years old.

After you delete the dates, enroll in English 101 "Writing."

does 'protecting colonial gains' necessarily imply current european colonialism?

i thought it would be more obvious, but i guess it's not. folks like the grosvenor, the richest native brit, profit from assets conferred their ancestors during a decidedly colonial, merchantilist era. this sort of old-money influence is communicated in their politics through the peerage-empowered house of lords.

if the empire was still in effect, there wouldn't be a need to conserve old wealth as i've characterized british policy, instead there would likely be deference to investment like the US.