Something I've noticed

[LoneLaugher]

The "polarization" that so many nutters lament is the direct result of the growth of "conservative" hate radio. Misinformation run rampant in an all out attempt to frighten people. Day in......day out.....for nearly three decades.

 

[IsaacNewton]

They know if you tell a lie over and over...

 

[MACAULAY]

I understand what you are saying. And....I think it is a bunch of hooey.

This is a center left nation. The idea that liberals haven't been willing to compromise is RIDICULOUS. It is intransigence on the part of "conservatives" that you are witnessing. Period.

Liberal ideals built the foundations of this society.....we don't take sledgehammers to it.

You understand how you're illustrating my point, right? All you had to say to that was that America was founded as a Liberal Nation and so clearly every problem is completely the fault of the bad guys. You're showing yourself to be part of the problem here. Despite that, you still inadvertently admitted to one of the main causes of the dysfunction: both are feeding off each other at this point. The more besieged one feels the more it will lash out and put the other on the defensive. Escalation creates further escalation. Neither side is willing to offer a compromise to the clear enemy nor accept any offering less than unconditional surrender. What I said still applies, though: this will ultimately work out in your favor. You have the support of the elite, the funding, and sufficient social control that there's no other way this could work out. The conservatives are basically fighting to the bitter end here. Your victory is already assured. The problems for you only occur when you've eliminated their presence entirely and suddenly realize there's nobody to keep yours in check anymore. Your new order will collapse without balance and something more healthy will eventually grow up to take its place.

Pedro you are right in the roles conservatism and liberalism play in human populations. It expresses itself more along the line of a spectrum rather than a schism type split. People are conservative in some parts of their lives and progressive in others.

There was a moment that propelled conservatives in the U.S. to push for 'victory' over progressives. That was the resignation of Richard Nixon under threat of impeachment. The conservative ruling cohort was at once utterly embarrassed, traumatized, and angered by this. As I noted, conservatives view leaders not really as people, but more as father figures, or saviors. And when their father is publicly shamed it strikes to the core of a conservative. The odd part is it didn't matter that Nixon brought his shame on himself. All that mattered was he was forced out 'by the other side'. Revenge by the conservative elites is what has been playing out ever since.

The construction of conservative talk radio and more importantly, Faux News, were deliberate endeavors to try to slowly social engineer the society over to their side. Of course most conservatives on this and all message boards will flail around denying such a thing but it is fact. This conservative media, along with conservative think tanks, have been daily drilling into the heads of its regular listeners, "hate them, they are not us", "they are not American", "they are foreign", "all the problems in the country are their fault (scapegoat)".

You only have to listen, you don't have to interpret anything, just listen to conservative talk radio and Faux News. It boils down to this, "life is miserable because of THEM". It is a lie of course, but conservative media isn't worried about truth. They are concerned about defeating the other.

And this is relatively new to American society. Conservatives have always fought politically and voted their conscience. What is new is the 'us vs them' absolute that conservative media puts out 24/7. And there is no equal opposite. Faux News and conservative media create a strawman 'the main stream media' and then throw rocks at it and demand all their followers do the same. They demonize everything that isn't THEM. Again, its soul purpose is to herd conservatives into a corner of 'us vs them' group think.

And at some point when someone is throwing rocks at you, you start throwing them back. This is what has brought American society to this point.

_____________________________________

If you will shorten up your posts some, I promise to try to read them, at least for awhile. I have an amateur interest in abnormal psychology and your are surest Bat-Shit Crazy pompous ass to come along in a while.

There is a Jealousy about you that has considerable intrigue. Are you willing to say how the Republicans have ruined your life starting at an early age? Did you get bullied by a kid who you now suspect of being a conservative? Will you say which of the Democrat Grievance Groups you belong to?

All of these things would help to contribute to a diagnosis. You can get anything on the internet these days, you know. I will be your Doctor.

 

[IsaacNewton]

I understand what you are saying. And....I think it is a bunch of hooey.

This is a center left nation. The idea that liberals haven't been willing to compromise is RIDICULOUS. It is intransigence on the part of "conservatives" that you are witnessing. Period.

Liberal ideals built the foundations of this society.....we don't take sledgehammers to it.

You understand how you're illustrating my point, right? All you had to say to that was that America was founded as a Liberal Nation and so clearly every problem is completely the fault of the bad guys. You're showing yourself to be part of the problem here. Despite that, you still inadvertently admitted to one of the main causes of the dysfunction: both are feeding off each other at this point. The more besieged one feels the more it will lash out and put the other on the defensive. Escalation creates further escalation. Neither side is willing to offer a compromise to the clear enemy nor accept any offering less than unconditional surrender. What I said still applies, though: this will ultimately work out in your favor. You have the support of the elite, the funding, and sufficient social control that there's no other way this could work out. The conservatives are basically fighting to the bitter end here. Your victory is already assured. The problems for you only occur when you've eliminated their presence entirely and suddenly realize there's nobody to keep yours in check anymore. Your new order will collapse without balance and something more healthy will eventually grow up to take its place.

Pedro you are right in the roles conservatism and liberalism play in human populations. It expresses itself more along the line of a spectrum rather than a schism type split. People are conservative in some parts of their lives and progressive in others.

There was a moment that propelled conservatives in the U.S. to push for 'victory' over progressives. That was the resignation of Richard Nixon under threat of impeachment. The conservative ruling cohort was at once utterly embarrassed, traumatized, and angered by this. As I noted, conservatives view leaders not really as people, but more as father figures, or saviors. And when their father is publicly shamed it strikes to the core of a conservative. The odd part is it didn't matter that Nixon brought his shame on himself. All that mattered was he was forced out 'by the other side'. Revenge by the conservative elites is what has been playing out ever since.

The construction of conservative talk radio and more importantly, Faux News, were deliberate endeavors to try to slowly social engineer the society over to their side. Of course most conservatives on this and all message boards will flail around denying such a thing but it is fact. This conservative media, along with conservative think tanks, have been daily drilling into the heads of its regular listeners, "hate them, they are not us", "they are not American", "they are foreign", "all the problems in the country are their fault (scapegoat)".

You only have to listen, you don't have to interpret anything, just listen to conservative talk radio and Faux News. It boils down to this, "life is miserable because of THEM". It is a lie of course, but conservative media isn't worried about truth. They are concerned about defeating the other.

And this is relatively new to American society. Conservatives have always fought politically and voted their conscience. What is new is the 'us vs them' absolute that conservative media puts out 24/7. And there is no equal opposite. Faux News and conservative media create a strawman 'the main stream media' and then throw rocks at it and demand all their followers do the same. They demonize everything that isn't THEM. Again, its soul purpose is to herd conservatives into a corner of 'us vs them' group think.

And at some point when someone is throwing rocks at you, you start throwing them back. This is what has brought American society to this point.

_____________________________________

If you will shorten up your posts some, I promise to try to read them, at least for awhile. I have an amateur interest in abnormal psychology and your are surest Bat-Shit Crazy pompous ass to come along in a while.

There is a Jealousy about you that has considerable intrigue. Are you willing to say how the Republicans have ruined your life starting at an early age? Did you get bullied by a kid who you now suspect of being a conservative? Will you say which of the Democrat Grievance Groups you belong to?

All of these things would help to contribute to a diagnosis. You can get anything on the internet these days, you know. I will be your Doctor.

Yeah you have nothing of value to add, all you have is your pavlovian anger response to anything that destroys your self-delusions. I'm sorry to do so in such long and measured fashion (I know having to read more than one paragraph is too much effort for you).

You don't see reality, you read your anger into the spaces between the lines and construct a false evil. Again, your mind gravitates to everything being scary.

Diagnose why you can't present a coherent thought without your internal vitriol vomiting out of your mouth.

 

[MACAULAY]

I understand what you are saying. And....I think it is a bunch of hooey.

This is a center left nation. The idea that liberals haven't been willing to compromise is RIDICULOUS. It is intransigence on the part of "conservatives" that you are witnessing. Period.

Liberal ideals built the foundations of this society.....we don't take sledgehammers to it.

You understand how you're illustrating my point, right? All you had to say to that was that America was founded as a Liberal Nation and so clearly every problem is completely the fault of the bad guys. You're showing yourself to be part of the problem here. Despite that, you still inadvertently admitted to one of the main causes of the dysfunction: both are feeding off each other at this point. The more besieged one feels the more it will lash out and put the other on the defensive. Escalation creates further escalation. Neither side is willing to offer a compromise to the clear enemy nor accept any offering less than unconditional surrender. What I said still applies, though: this will ultimately work out in your favor. You have the support of the elite, the funding, and sufficient social control that there's no other way this could work out. The conservatives are basically fighting to the bitter end here. Your victory is already assured. The problems for you only occur when you've eliminated their presence entirely and suddenly realize there's nobody to keep yours in check anymore. Your new order will collapse without balance and something more healthy will eventually grow up to take its place.

Pedro you are right in the roles conservatism and liberalism play in human populations. It expresses itself more along the line of a spectrum rather than a schism type split. People are conservative in some parts of their lives and progressive in others.

There was a moment that propelled conservatives in the U.S. to push for 'victory' over progressives. That was the resignation of Richard Nixon under threat of impeachment. The conservative ruling cohort was at once utterly embarrassed, traumatized, and angered by this. As I noted, conservatives view leaders not really as people, but more as father figures, or saviors. And when their father is publicly shamed it strikes to the core of a conservative. The odd part is it didn't matter that Nixon brought his shame on himself. All that mattered was he was forced out 'by the other side'. Revenge by the conservative elites is what has been playing out ever since.

The construction of conservative talk radio and more importantly, Faux News, were deliberate endeavors to try to slowly social engineer the society over to their side. Of course most conservatives on this and all message boards will flail around denying such a thing but it is fact. This conservative media, along with conservative think tanks, have been daily drilling into the heads of its regular listeners, "hate them, they are not us", "they are not American", "they are foreign", "all the problems in the country are their fault (scapegoat)".

You only have to listen, you don't have to interpret anything, just listen to conservative talk radio and Faux News. It boils down to this, "life is miserable because of THEM". It is a lie of course, but conservative media isn't worried about truth. They are concerned about defeating the other.

And this is relatively new to American society. Conservatives have always fought politically and voted their conscience. What is new is the 'us vs them' absolute that conservative media puts out 24/7. And there is no equal opposite. Faux News and conservative media create a strawman 'the main stream media' and then throw rocks at it and demand all their followers do the same. They demonize everything that isn't THEM. Again, its soul purpose is to herd conservatives into a corner of 'us vs them' group think.

And at some point when someone is throwing rocks at you, you start throwing them back. This is what has brought American society to this point.

_____________________________________

If you will shorten up your posts some, I promise to try to read them, at least for awhile. I have an amateur interest in abnormal psychology and your are surest Bat-Shit Crazy pompous ass to come along in a while.

There is a Jealousy about you that has considerable intrigue. Are you willing to say how the Republicans have ruined your life starting at an early age? Did you get bullied by a kid who you now suspect of being a conservative? Will you say which of the Democrat Grievance Groups you belong to?

All of these things would help to contribute to a diagnosis. You can get anything on the internet these days, you know. I will be your Doctor.

Yeah you have nothing of value to add, all you have is your pavlovian anger response to anything that destroys your self-delusions. I'm sorry to do so in such long and measured fashion (I know having to read more than one paragraph is too much effort for you).

You don't see reality, you read your anger into the spaces between the lines and construct a false evil. Again, your mind gravitates to everything being scary.

Diagnose why you can't present a coherent thought without your internal vitriol vomiting out of your mouth.

_____________________________________

You know Pavlov never did study anger as a conditioned response, I don't think he did...he just studied conditioned responses...he just rang a bell and then fed his dog, and after a while the dog salivated every time he rang a bell. ...maybe you can show where he worked on Anger...and thus prove you are not just another Pinhead Loon throwing out words you don't really understand.

Good response in general, though. You are helping me to understand your special psychopathology. Wish you would answer my questions though.

Diagnosis so far: Bat Shit Crazy Dumbass

 

[IsaacNewton]

I understand what you are saying. And....I think it is a bunch of hooey.

This is a center left nation. The idea that liberals haven't been willing to compromise is RIDICULOUS. It is intransigence on the part of "conservatives" that you are witnessing. Period.

Liberal ideals built the foundations of this society.....we don't take sledgehammers to it.

You understand how you're illustrating my point, right? All you had to say to that was that America was founded as a Liberal Nation and so clearly every problem is completely the fault of the bad guys. You're showing yourself to be part of the problem here. Despite that, you still inadvertently admitted to one of the main causes of the dysfunction: both are feeding off each other at this point. The more besieged one feels the more it will lash out and put the other on the defensive. Escalation creates further escalation. Neither side is willing to offer a compromise to the clear enemy nor accept any offering less than unconditional surrender. What I said still applies, though: this will ultimately work out in your favor. You have the support of the elite, the funding, and sufficient social control that there's no other way this could work out. The conservatives are basically fighting to the bitter end here. Your victory is already assured. The problems for you only occur when you've eliminated their presence entirely and suddenly realize there's nobody to keep yours in check anymore. Your new order will collapse without balance and something more healthy will eventually grow up to take its place.

Pedro you are right in the roles conservatism and liberalism play in human populations. It expresses itself more along the line of a spectrum rather than a schism type split. People are conservative in some parts of their lives and progressive in others.

There was a moment that propelled conservatives in the U.S. to push for 'victory' over progressives. That was the resignation of Richard Nixon under threat of impeachment. The conservative ruling cohort was at once utterly embarrassed, traumatized, and angered by this. As I noted, conservatives view leaders not really as people, but more as father figures, or saviors. And when their father is publicly shamed it strikes to the core of a conservative. The odd part is it didn't matter that Nixon brought his shame on himself. All that mattered was he was forced out 'by the other side'. Revenge by the conservative elites is what has been playing out ever since.

The construction of conservative talk radio and more importantly, Faux News, were deliberate endeavors to try to slowly social engineer the society over to their side. Of course most conservatives on this and all message boards will flail around denying such a thing but it is fact. This conservative media, along with conservative think tanks, have been daily drilling into the heads of its regular listeners, "hate them, they are not us", "they are not American", "they are foreign", "all the problems in the country are their fault (scapegoat)".

You only have to listen, you don't have to interpret anything, just listen to conservative talk radio and Faux News. It boils down to this, "life is miserable because of THEM". It is a lie of course, but conservative media isn't worried about truth. They are concerned about defeating the other.

And this is relatively new to American society. Conservatives have always fought politically and voted their conscience. What is new is the 'us vs them' absolute that conservative media puts out 24/7. And there is no equal opposite. Faux News and conservative media create a strawman 'the main stream media' and then throw rocks at it and demand all their followers do the same. They demonize everything that isn't THEM. Again, its soul purpose is to herd conservatives into a corner of 'us vs them' group think.

And at some point when someone is throwing rocks at you, you start throwing them back. This is what has brought American society to this point.

_____________________________________

If you will shorten up your posts some, I promise to try to read them, at least for awhile. I have an amateur interest in abnormal psychology and your are surest Bat-Shit Crazy pompous ass to come along in a while.

There is a Jealousy about you that has considerable intrigue. Are you willing to say how the Republicans have ruined your life starting at an early age? Did you get bullied by a kid who you now suspect of being a conservative? Will you say which of the Democrat Grievance Groups you belong to?

All of these things would help to contribute to a diagnosis. You can get anything on the internet these days, you know. I will be your Doctor.

Yeah you have nothing of value to add, all you have is your pavlovian anger response to anything that destroys your self-delusions. I'm sorry to do so in such long and measured fashion (I know having to read more than one paragraph is too much effort for you).

You don't see reality, you read your anger into the spaces between the lines and construct a false evil. Again, your mind gravitates to everything being scary.

Diagnose why you can't present a coherent thought without your internal vitriol vomiting out of your mouth.

_____________________________________

You know Pavlov never did study anger as a conditioned response, I don't think he did...he just studied conditioned responses...he just rang a bell and then fed his dog, and after a while the dog salivated every time he rang a bell. ...maybe you can show where he worked on Anger...and thus prove you are not just another Pinhead Loon throwing out words you don't really understand.

Good response in general, though. You are helping me to understand your special psychopathology. Wish you would answer my questions though.

Diagnosis so far: Bat Shit Crazy Dumbass

You can't participate, you have feigned intelligence only. Try the sports forum.

 

[Skylar]

Actually, self identified liberals are at an all time high.

It's ironic that the general level of stupidity is running in tandem with such self-identification, eh?

I don't think 'stupdity' means what you think it means. As you seem to be defining it as anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. And those numbers continue to grow.

 

[Skylar]

Almost every committed leftist (liberal, socialist, communist, etc) I've known has fallen under at least a few categories: female; feminist; pro-choice; unemployed or working a typically service oriented unskilled job; on welfare; in college (often for some form of humanities degree); atheist or practicing Jewish; at least moderately anti-American; from an abusive background; suffering from restricted health; and typically only wants to talk about politics at any given time. The more of these categories they fall into, the more committed they are and the faster they drop you for having a difference of opinion in any particular area.

What percentage of the country would you conclude that group includes? Your first criteria alone bumps it to slightly more than half.

They're not criteria. They're categories I've noticed this subset of people tend to fall in. Not all are shared by each individual, but they are common traits of the class as a whole.

You straight up refused to answer my question based on the semantic difference between 'criteria' and 'category'?

Wow. Can I take it from that rather awkward avoidance of a cartoon simple question that you have no idea what percentage of the country your 'categories' include?

Its at least half, as you cited female. . As 44% of men are prochoice, you've increased your totals to 75% or so. Include all college students, all of the working poor, all Jews, all atheists, anyone in poor health and all of the unemployed.....and damn. There's going to be some serious overlap between groups, but even then we're talking 85 to 90% of the population.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Actually, self identified liberals are at an all time high.

It's ironic that the general level of stupidity is running in tandem with such self-identification, eh?

I don't think 'stupdity' means what you think it means. As you seem to be defining it as anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. And those numbers continue to grow.

Not at all. There are many people who don't think as I do who are not stupid.

None of them are Democrats. ("Liberal" as a descriptive of Democrats is something of a major misnomer.)

 

[Skylar]

Actually, self identified liberals are at an all time high.

It's ironic that the general level of stupidity is running in tandem with such self-identification, eh?

I don't think 'stupdity' means what you think it means. As you seem to be defining it as anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. And those numbers continue to grow.

Not at all. There are many people who don't think as I do who are not stupid.

None of them are Democrats. ("Liberal" as a descriptive of Democrats is something of a major misnomer.)

Save that it isn't. Liberal as used when describing democrats or folks who lean left is by far the most common usage of the term.

And of course, insulting vast swaths of the electorate including the majority of the voting public probably isn't the best way to persuade them to see things your way. Though it does make for a lovely tantrum.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Actually, self identified liberals are at an all time high.

It's ironic that the general level of stupidity is running in tandem with such self-identification, eh?

I don't think 'stupdity' means what you think it means. As you seem to be defining it as anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. And those numbers continue to grow.

Not at all. There are many people who don't think as I do who are not stupid.

None of them are Democrats. ("Liberal" as a descriptive of Democrats is something of a major misnomer.)

Save that it isn't. Liberal as used when describing democrats or folks who lean left is by far the most common usage of the term.

What you have is a borrowed term with a late definition in order to fake a connection with the Founders. The liberals who founded the nation would have modern day "liberals" lined up and shot.

And of course, insulting vast swaths of the electorate including the majority of the voting public probably isn't the best way to persuade them to see things your way. Though it does make for a lovely tantrum.

A majority in your own mind. Stupid people will never see things my way, and compromise is a loser's game.

 

[Skylar]

Actually, self identified liberals are at an all time high.

It's ironic that the general level of stupidity is running in tandem with such self-identification, eh?

I don't think 'stupdity' means what you think it means. As you seem to be defining it as anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. And those numbers continue to grow.

Not at all. There are many people who don't think as I do who are not stupid.

None of them are Democrats. ("Liberal" as a descriptive of Democrats is something of a major misnomer.)

Save that it isn't. Liberal as used when describing democrats or folks who lean left is by far the most common usage of the term.

What you have is a borrowed term with a late definition in order to fake a connection with the Founders. The liberals who founded the nation would have modern day "liberals" lined up and shot.

What I have is the meaning of the term that people actually use. If you say 'liberal', the definition that 99% of folks think of first is exactly what I've described.

Its foolish to intentionally use a word that you know doesn't convey your intended meaning. And your usage most definitely isn't conveyed in our living language when you say 'liberal'.

As for your murder fantasies, I strongly suspect that you're speaking for what you'd do and want to do. And not the founders.

A majority in your own mind.

Or...in the voting results. More people voted democrat in both the House and Senate elections than did republican. Same with the presidential elections, with democrats winning the popular vote 5 of the last 6 elections. With far more registered democrats than republicans. And more people leaning democrat than leaning republican.

With the ranks of self identified liberals skyrocketing, now at an all time high. While self identified conservatives are 1 point off an all time low.

Ignore as you will. It really doesn't matte.r

Stupid people will never see things my way, and compromise is a loser's game.

Or compromise is simple recognition that you don't have the support you need to enact your policies. And if you want to do anything, you'll need to enlist the cooperation of people who disagree with you. At least in part.

Congress with 'we won't compromise' republicans has been the least productive in history. That's what refusing to compromise gets you.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

That's nice dear.

Now go make a nice peanut butter sandwich there's a good boy.

 

[Skylar]

That's nice dear.

Now go make a nice peanut butter sandwich there's a good boy.

Laughing....you just blinked. Moving from a conversation of facts to silly insults.

If your claims had had merit, you wouldn't have had to abandon them.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Rarely have so many words been lined up to say so little.

Out of all that the only descriptions that even vaguely apply to me would be "from a poor but stable background" and "in unremarkable health". But that's hardly specific.

You're one of the few people so far to have completely misunderstood the OP. It wasn't a description of each individual person. It was a series of generalizations I've noticed often hold true.

Moreover you're not at all clear what you're talking about right at the outset: leftists, Liberals, socialists and communists are four different things. Your other fatal flaw is that in both sections, the conservative one and the four-tiered quadrafantasy, you've got everybody in the world consumed with the political. Don't know what planet you're on but around here it just doesn't work that way.

Ergo I went with "have no idea wtf you're talking about".

Liberal and conservative in the OP are referring to two complementary tendencies or mental orientations. The best place to start would be here: Home moralfoundations.org
The political left is an umbrella covering liberals (in the vernacular sense; not to be confused with the liberal mental configuration above), Socialists, Communists, and others. We've discussed this. It's similar to how the right is an umbrella for many a range of different movements as well, notably populism and totalitarianism.

You straight up refused to answer my question based on the semantic difference between 'criteria' and 'category'?

Wow. Can I take it from that rather awkward avoidance of a cartoon simple question that you have no idea what percentage of the country your 'categories' include?

Its at least half, as you cited female. . As 44% of men are prochoice, you've increased your totals to 75% or so. Include all college students, all of the working poor, all Jews, all atheists, anyone in poor health and all of the unemployed.....and damn. There's going to be some serious overlap between groups, but even then we're talking 85 to 90% of the population.

You really need to read this: Semantics Define Semantics at Dictionary.com
"the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: "
Yes. The semantics (which is a fancy word for "meaning") of a word is important. What I did was say that your question was based on a misunderstanding of the OP. I wasn't describing you or any particular person. I wasn't including every person who holds any of those traits. I was listing traits I've noticed to be disproportionately common. It isn't that every Jew falls on one side of the spectrum. It's that one side of the spectrum includes a disproportionate number of Jews.

Off topic, but I just realized that I'm still waiting on your answer to my offer of $300/month.

 

[Pogo]

he political left is an umbrella covering liberals (in the vernacular sense; not to be confused with the liberal mental configuration above), Socialists, Communists, and others. .... It's similar to how the right is an umbrella for many a range of different movements as well, notably populism and totalitarianism.

Bullshit on both counts. The "political left" is no such thing, nor is "the right". This is why your OP makes no sense; its premise fails to.

You really need to read this: Semantics Define Semantics at Dictionary.com
"the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: "
Yes. The semantics (which is a fancy word for "meaning") of a word is important.

This is exactly my point. You might take your own advice.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

That's nice dear.

Now go make a nice peanut butter sandwich there's a good boy.

Laughing....you just blinked. Moving from a conversation of facts to silly insults.

"You blinked ... because I said so!" Too funny. That you cannot process English is not my problem.

If your claims had had merit, you wouldn't have had to abandon them.

Obviously I didn't, even though you say so.