Some lies about health care Obama clearly DID tell

[Christopher]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

 

[Maple]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

 

[American Horse]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

Maple just for the sake of accuracy: The medical care sector represents 16% plus of the economy not 6%.

 

[Christopher]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

Maple just for the sake of accuracy: The medical care sector represents 16% plus of the economy not 6%.

This is true, however, government spending through programs such as Medicare and Medicaid account for somewhere around one-half of all health care spending already. The government is just trying to take over the other half now.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

oh good. you found a website that tells you what to think! well, since an underqualified intern there was able to misunderstand a highly technical medical journal, the value gets passed onto the rest of ignorant America.

OK. Let's really look at these issues

Preventive Medicine. In the speech, Obama stated "insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies". If you look at the New England Journal of Medicine paper which your politi"fact" link cites as its only source, you will see a nice lil graph that lists a whole slew of measures. Top of the list is Colonoscopy: Cost Saving.

The article doesn't mention mammography at all. The article tries to make an unbiased report that shows that some things will be cost saving, and others won't. Your politi"fact" picked out the part that it agreed with (no savings) and conveniently overlooked everything it disagreed with. Furthermore, it is foolish to claim that money is the only resource being saved in these setups. Primary care has been proven to keep people healthier for longer. Now, it might cost $5 more per year of your life, but hey if you die at 50 cuz you decided to opt out, that's like $250 saved! sweet!

Let's look at the obesity and "record" profits. He got the numbers a bit off. Silly president - estimates say it would only save >10 million dollars. And those insurance companies? They only made a few million dollars over the billion dollar mark but it wasn't a record! So what does this tell us, in the end? Well, that tackling obesity would STILL save a large sum of money (not to mention keep a lot more people healthier - you know, the GOAL of all this), and that insurance companies are STILL making a ton of profit. Now it's not nice if anyone purposely exaggerates a trend, but he got the basic trend right.

Are you that fragile that any overestimate cripples your respect and loyalty to your president? He's not telling you tackling obesity would save tons when it would really cost more. He's not telling you insurance companies broke records when they were in the red. And yet, somehow, after nitpicking over minutia, you are foolish enough to believe that your useless insignificant correction somehow dismisses or otherwise damages a solid plan?

Try again.

This is true, however, government spending through programs such as Medicare and Medicaid account for somewhere around one-half of all health care spending already. The government is just trying to take over the other half now.

and what, do you believe, is their evil goal in taking over? what's the ulterior motive here?

 

[Christopher]

oh good. you found a website that tells you what to think! well, since an underqualified intern there was able to misunderstand a highly technical medical journal, the value gets passed onto the rest of ignorant America.

No, it is not telling me what to think. It has given me enough evidence to say Obama lies, though.

OK. Let's really look at these issues

Preventive Medicine. In the speech, Obama stated "insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies". If you look at the New England Journal of Medicine paper which your politi"fact" link cites as its only source, you will see a nice lil graph that lists a whole slew of measures. Top of the list is Colonoscopy: Cost Saving.

The article doesn't mention mammography at all. The article tries to make an unbiased report that shows that some things will be cost saving, and others won't. Your politi"fact" picked out the part that it agreed with (no savings) and conveniently overlooked everything it disagreed with. Furthermore, it is foolish to claim that money is the only resource being saved in these setups. Primary care has been proven to keep people healthier for longer. Now, it might cost $5 more per year of your life, but hey if you die at 50 cuz you decided to opt out, that's like $250 saved! sweet!

You are not looking at the whole picture. Overall, there are not cost savings, period. Obama is selling his plan as providing cost savings, yet the CBO and other studies (as mentioned in the article) state otherwise.

"The evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall," CBO director Douglas Elmendorf wrote

Note that he said there is no cost savings and that it leads to higher spending “for most preventative services”.

By the way, do you have any credible sources for the information you’re providing here, or is this just your speculation?

Let's look at the obesity and "record" profits. He got the numbers a bit off. Silly president - estimates say it would only save >10 million dollars. And those insurance companies? They only made a few million dollars over the billion dollar mark but it wasn't a record! So what does this tell us, in the end? Well, that tackling obesity would STILL save a large sum of money (not to mention keep a lot more people healthier - you know, the GOAL of all this), and that insurance companies are STILL making a ton of profit. Now it's not nice if anyone purposely exaggerates a trend, but he got the basic trend right.

The numbers are “a bit off”? 10 million versus 1 trillion? Wow, perhaps he needs to learn how to round, then. He is smarter than that, which is why I say exaggerating the truth is what he did, which is another way of saying he lied. He was off on his numbers twice, which is the reason PolitiFact mentioned it. Stating “record profits” is still a lie, no matter how much you want to spin it. He is only doing it to promote the people’s hatred towards the health insurance companies. That makes it wrong.
It is noted that you did not respond to the other lie I provided. I assume you agree that it was a lie.

Are you that fragile that any overestimate cripples your respect and loyalty to your president? He's not telling you tackling obesity would save tons when it would really cost more. He's not telling you insurance companies broke records when they were in the red. And yet, somehow, after nitpicking over minutia, you are foolish enough to believe that your useless insignificant correction somehow dismisses or otherwise damages a solid plan?

Try again.

Fragile? Yet you are saying my pointing out his blatant lies is “nitpicking”? Perhaps it is you who is too fragile to admit Obama lies, like many other politicians. I did not even point out the many other lies he has told.
He does not address the many issues driving health care costs up, yet you claim he has a “solid plan”. Go figure.

and what, do you believe, is their evil goal in taking over? what's the ulterior motive here?

I think many within the government have good intentions for what they are trying to do, yet there are also many who are just seeking more power and they are pandering to a growing entitlement mentality in America.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

No, it is not telling me what to think. It has given me enough evidence to say Obama lies, though.

You are not looking at the whole picture. Overall, there are not cost savings, period. Obama is selling his plan as providing cost savings, yet the CBO and other studies (as mentioned in the article) state otherwise.

Note that he said there is no cost savings and that it leads to higher spending “for most preventative services”.

Note that of the two preventive procedures Obama stated in that speech, one is proven cost saving by YOUR source, the other has not been studied. Hey maybe if you use the word "period" again, it will make that lil fact go away.

By the way, do you have any credible sources for the information you’re providing here, or is this just your speculation?

I actually just followed your own source. Go read the politi"fact" page. Laypeople have this bad habit of blindly believing every out-of-context quote they see instead of looking at the actual proof. Your link based its entire premise off an article in the New England Journal of Medicine. The article itself examines about 600 research studies on the topic to find that some preventive medicine is cost saving, while other aspects are not. Again, your politi"fact" just pulled out the pieces it wanted to read in that conclusion. Heck you don't even need to read the article - just look at one of their graphs.
Flu vaccines and colonoscopies: cost saving. The latter is the very thing that Obama specifically mentioned.

But hey, if the evil democrat says preventive medicine is good as it saves lives and a bit of money, you can either 1) blindly follow anyone who says otherwise, or 2) do the "research" yourself and focus in on medium chain acyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase deficiency screenings and shout how much money it wastes! Let's ignore the fact that Obama has never once, not ONCE, suggested we push for that test - let's just jump straight to flipping out hardcore.

So what's the moral of the story here? Everything in moderation. There are a million and one obscure tests you can do under the name of diagnostic "preventive care", from crazy protein screenings to daily full body MRI. Do you really believe that's what he's pushing for? That it's what any doctor is pushing for? Start with the basics, such as flu shots and colonoscopies (both cost saving, by your own source's source).

The numbers are “a bit off”? 10 million versus 1 trillion? Wow, perhaps he needs to learn how to round, then. He is smarter than that, which is why I say exaggerating the truth is what he did, which is another way of saying he lied. He was off on his numbers twice, which is the reason PolitiFact mentioned it. Stating “record profits” is still a lie, no matter how much you want to spin it. He is only doing it to promote the people’s hatred towards the health insurance companies. That makes it wrong.

Maybe I just have a higher tolerance than you do. See when a president tells me an entire nation needs to go to war because of weapons of mass destruction which were knowingly and completely fabricated, I take offense. When a president says there's a large obesity problem but has the numbers wrong, even tho there really is a large obesity problem, I don't mind (especially because I just assumed he used different researchers, and a bit of sway factor as you alluded to). When he says insurance companies made a lot of profit when they really did make a lot of profit, I don't take umbrage, regardless of whether it was a "record" or not.

Again: lying in a manner that is completely opposite of the truth that winds up costing a tremendous amount of money and lives = bad. overestimating true trends and acting in a manner that will still save America millions of dollars = I don't much mind.

Yet again I ask: do either of the exaggerations change the problem or the solution? No. No, not at all. But hey, you can flipout hardcore about it anyway.

It is noted that you did not respond to the other lie I provided. I assume you agree that it was a lie.

I'm not familiar with it either way, thus I didn't comment. See there's this thing that hicks don't seem to understand called the political neutral. It is pretty close to the scientific neutral, but generally works like this: when I don't know something, I don't comment. I know, crazy thought to not just blatantly or blindly pick a side based on what my fellow ignorant American believes, but it's what I practice. So no, I don't blindly believe it to be a lie, nor do I believe it to be truth. Your "source" has already proven unreliable (that's completely incorrect unreliable, not just exaggeration unreliable, for the record).

He does not address the many issues driving health care costs up, yet you claim he has a “solid plan”.

And what part of a public option is degraded because of his overestimates? No, you're not allowed to just allude to something being bad, you need to say *why* it's bad. So, why is a public option bad, and how do the exaggerations make it worse?

I think many within the government have good intentions for what they are trying to do, yet there are also many who are just seeking more power and they are pandering to a growing entitlement mentality in America.

more power? praytel who is gaining this "power" by trying to extend our lives and improve our standard of care? power over who? the people who can continue using their private insurance?

really tho? you think the only reason the government is making any changes to our healthcare is cuz of a conquest for power? my lil friend the bar graph suggests otherwise:

 

[auditor0007]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

Maple just for the sake of accuracy: The medical care sector represents 16% plus of the economy not 6%.

And without any major changes, it will be 33% of the economy within twenty years.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

Maple just for the sake of accuracy: The medical care sector represents 16% plus of the economy not 6%.

And without any major changes, it will be 33% of the economy within twenty years.

And no major changes that might slow this increase are proposed in any of the bills before Congress.

 

[HUGGY]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

Maple just for the sake of accuracy: The medical care sector represents 16% plus of the economy not 6%.

Maple does not care about your socialist marxist communist accuracy.

 

[edthecynic]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

It became very obvious to me that you are brainwashed by GOP Hate-Run media when you demonize Obama for telling the truth that you don't want to hear. Your whole agenda is making Obama fail and not about improving health care.

Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits
Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits

Every year millions of Americans go under the knife, but many of them are enduring great pain and shelling out thousands of dollars for surgeries they don't really need. In fact, the only people who seem to really benefit from these unnecessary medical procedures are the medical professionals who stand to make exorbitant amounts of money from performing them.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed each year, writes Gary Null, PhD., in Death by Medicine. Rather than reverse the problems they purport to fix, these unwarranted procedures can often lead to greater health problems and even death. A 1995 report by Milliman & Robertson, Inc. concluded that nearly 60 percent of all surgeries performed are medically unnecessary, according to Under The Influence of Modern Medicine by Terry A. Rondberg. Some of the most major and frequently performed unnecessary surgeries include hysterectomies, Cesarean sections and coronary artery bypass surgeries.

 

[AllieBaba]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

It became very obvious to me that you are brainwashed by GOP Hate-Run media when you demonize Obama for telling the truth that you don't want to hear. Your whole agenda is making Obama fail and not about improving health care.

Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits
Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits

Every year millions of Americans go under the knife, but many of them are enduring great pain and shelling out thousands of dollars for surgeries they don't really need. In fact, the only people who seem to really benefit from these unnecessary medical procedures are the medical professionals who stand to make exorbitant amounts of money from performing them.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed each year, writes Gary Null, PhD., in Death by Medicine. Rather than reverse the problems they purport to fix, these unwarranted procedures can often lead to greater health problems and even death. A 1995 report by Milliman & Robertson, Inc. concluded that nearly 60 percent of all surgeries performed are medically unnecessary, according to Under The Influence of Modern Medicine by Terry A. Rondberg. Some of the most major and frequently performed unnecessary surgeries include hysterectomies, Cesarean sections and coronary artery bypass surgeries.

What a joke.

 

[American Horse]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

It became very obvious to me that you are brainwashed by GOP Hate-Run media when you demonize Obama for telling the truth that you don't want to hear. Your whole agenda is making Obama fail and not about improving health care.

Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits
Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits

Every year millions of Americans go under the knife, but many of them are enduring great pain and shelling out thousands of dollars for surgeries they don't really need. In fact, the only people who seem to really benefit from these unnecessary medical procedures are the medical professionals who stand to make exorbitant amounts of money from performing them.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed each year, writes Gary Null, PhD., in Death by Medicine. Rather than reverse the problems they purport to fix, these unwarranted procedures can often lead to greater health problems and even death. A 1995 report by Milliman & Robertson, Inc. concluded that nearly 60 percent of all surgeries performed are medically unnecessary, according to Under The Influence of Modern Medicine by Terry A. Rondberg. Some of the most major and frequently performed unnecessary surgeries include hysterectomies, Cesarean sections and coronary artery bypass surgeries.

And all of that from an organization that promotes natural healing over modern medical treatment, pharmaceuticals, and timely surgery

 

[edthecynic]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

It became very obvious to me that you are brainwashed by GOP Hate-Run media when you demonize Obama for telling the truth that you don't want to hear. Your whole agenda is making Obama fail and not about improving health care.

Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits
Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits

Every year millions of Americans go under the knife, but many of them are enduring great pain and shelling out thousands of dollars for surgeries they don't really need. In fact, the only people who seem to really benefit from these unnecessary medical procedures are the medical professionals who stand to make exorbitant amounts of money from performing them.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed each year, writes Gary Null, PhD., in Death by Medicine. Rather than reverse the problems they purport to fix, these unwarranted procedures can often lead to greater health problems and even death. A 1995 report by Milliman & Robertson, Inc. concluded that nearly 60 percent of all surgeries performed are medically unnecessary, according to Under The Influence of Modern Medicine by Terry A. Rondberg. Some of the most major and frequently performed unnecessary surgeries include hysterectomies, Cesarean sections and coronary artery bypass surgeries.

And all of that from an organization that promotes natural healing over modern medical treatment, pharmaceuticals, and timely surgery

CON$ can't accept the truth when it contradicts their hate for Obama.

Unnecessary Surgery - The New York Times

In Dr. Greenspan's study, specialists reviewed the charts of 380 patients who had received pacemakers at 30 hospitals in the Philadelphia area. One-fifth of those implants were judged to be totally unnecessary. One reason was that some physicians had failed to evaluate patients' symptoms correctly, even at university hospitals with sophisticated diagnostic equipment.



Eighty-eight patients who had been advised by their doctors to undergo coronary bypass surgery received second opinions from specialists working under Dr. Graboys. The bypass operations had been recommended on the basis of a diagnostic test called cardiac catheterization, which had found blockages in the patients' coronary arteries. The specialists judged that, despite the blockages, 74 of the patients could be effectively managed with drugs instead of surgery. Most of them took the specialists' advice, and two and a half years after the study began, none of them had died.

A skyrocketing rate of diagnostic cardiac catheterizations is partly to blame for the upsurge in bypass operations, says Dr. Graboys. In this procedure, a catheter is inserted through the skin near the elbow or in the groin area and threaded through blood vessels into the coronary arteries. A dye is injected through the catheter, and X-rays are then taken of the coronary arteries in order to find blockages. According to Dr. Graboys, 800,000 cardiac catheterizations were performed in 1987; by the end of this year, the number may exceed a million. A study he is now working on suggests that even these procedures - which are often done when patients complain of chest pains or when there are abnormal EKG or stress-test results -are frequently unnecessary. When the specialists working under Dr. Graboys gave second opinions to 150 patients whose doctors had recommended cardiac catheterization, they found that the diagnostic procedure was unnecessary in a majority of cases. According to the specialists, the patients were medically stable and their condition could be controlled by life-style changes or medication.


Balloon angioplasty, a procedure in which a tiny balloon is inflated inside a coronary artery to flatten a blockage, has also come in for criticism. A study published in March by scientists at the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute in Bethesda, Md., suggested that 40 percent of the angioplasty procedures performed on heart attack patients may be unnecessary.

Of course, the heart isn't the only part of the body vulnerable to unnecessary surgical tampering. In 1988, the Rand Corporation, a research organization in Santa Monica, Calif., completed a study of 1,302 Medicare patients who had undergone carotid endarterectomies -an operation in which blockages in the neck arteries supplying blood to the brain are removed. A panel of physicians found that 32 percent of the operations were unjustified.



Where a person lives can affect the chances of being operated on unnecessarily. For example, according to a 1985 report by the Senate Special Committee on Aging, hysterectomies are performed 80 percent more often in the South than in the Northeast. Within the state of Massachusetts, the rate of hernia repair surgery varies by as much as 380 percent, while pacemaker surgery varies by as much as 1,250 percent. And, in a study by Dr. Wennberg, carotid endarterectomies were found to be twice as common in Boston as in New Haven. Meanwhile, people in New Haven were twice as likely to undergo bypass surgery as people in Boston.


According to Dr. Wennberg, these geographical variations, or ''surgical signatures,'' are seen year in and year out and are independent of rates of illness. There appears to be a correlation between the number of surgeons in a particular area and the number of operations, with more surgeons generally resulting in more operations. The variations may also be indicative of differences in prevailing medical wisdom. In any case, they clearly suggest that something other than hard medical data often underlies the judgment of surgeons.



Hospitals are hurting, too, because operations for such relatively common conditions as cataracts are increasingly being done on an outpatient basis or in doctors' offices. Consequently, surgeons are being pressured by their hospitals to schedule big-ticket procedures to fill the empty beds.
According to Caplan, the reimbursement policies of many health insurance plans inadvertently encourage surgeons to operate unnecessarily. In recent years, Medicare and some private insurance companies have placed limits on the amounts they will pay for particular operations. A cap on payments for procedures that are highly profitable for hospitals as well as doctors, such as coronary bypass operations, reduces profitability but doesn't eliminate it. This may encourage surgeons to do more of these operations to make up for the decreased profits.

 

[Christopher]

Note that of the two preventive procedures Obama stated in that speech, one is proven cost saving by YOUR source, the other has not been studied. Hey maybe if you use the word "period" again, it will make that lil fact go away.

Where is Obama’s unbiased analysis that shows his plans for his preventative measures will save money in the long term? I think he is still misleading people about cost savings.

I actually just followed your own source. Go read the politi"fact" page. Laypeople have this bad habit of blindly believing every out-of-context quote they see instead of looking at the actual proof. Your link based its entire premise off an article in the New England Journal of Medicine. The article itself examines about 600 research studies on the topic to find that some preventive medicine is cost saving, while other aspects are not. Again, your politi"fact" just pulled out the pieces it wanted to read in that conclusion. Heck you don't even need to read the article - just look at one of their graphs.
Flu vaccines and colonoscopies: cost saving. The latter is the very thing that Obama specifically mentioned.

But hey, if the evil democrat says preventive medicine is good as it saves lives and a bit of money, you can either 1) blindly follow anyone who says otherwise, or 2) do the "research" yourself and focus in on medium chain acyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase deficiency screenings and shout how much money it wastes! Let's ignore the fact that Obama has never once, not ONCE, suggested we push for that test - let's just jump straight to flipping out hardcore.

So what's the moral of the story here? Everything in moderation. There are a million and one obscure tests you can do under the name of diagnostic "preventive care", from crazy protein screenings to daily full body MRI. Do you really believe that's what he's pushing for? That it's what any doctor is pushing for? Start with the basics, such as flu shots and colonoscopies (both cost saving, by your own source's source).

Yes, the one article actually provides a summary of 600 research studies. How does pointing out it was one article help your argument again? In addition, it mentioned another study as well as the CBO which agrees preventative medicine does not provide cost savings. I still think Obama is misleading people into thinking preventative medicine will save us significant money. It is irrelevant to our discussion about the lives it saves, since he is misleading us about cost savings. Again, where is Obama’s unbiased analysis that we can confirm he is not misleading us?

When have I said Democrats are evil? You keep throwing that out as if I believe it. You also seem to believe I am “flipping out”, which is not the case.

Maybe I just have a higher tolerance than you do. See when a president tells me an entire nation needs to go to war because of weapons of mass destruction which were knowingly and completely fabricated, I take offense. When a president says there's a large obesity problem but has the numbers wrong, even tho there really is a large obesity problem, I don't mind (especially because I just assumed he used different researchers, and a bit of sway factor as you alluded to). When he says insurance companies made a lot of profit when they really did make a lot of profit, I don't take umbrage, regardless of whether it was a "record" or not.

Again: lying in a manner that is completely opposite of the truth that winds up costing a tremendous amount of money and lives = bad. overestimating true trends and acting in a manner that will still save America millions of dollars = I don't much mind.

You are under the incorrect assumption that I was not upset by the lies Bush told.
I agree, we have an obesity problem and it is causing many health issues for many people. So, how about we focus on education and other methods instead of government inserting itself further into the health care business?

I understand, you are willing to give Obama a pass on his misrepresentations of the truth. Until you can show me that his numbers are only slightly off on the obesity savings you have no point.

You are missing the point about insurance companies too. The left is only giving you total dollar figures to show how big the total dollar figure of profit is. Do you know what the profit margin is for health insurance companies? He also still tried to use the words “record profits” to make his case to the people that insurance companies are “evil”. Here is an article you need to read: Why Health Insurers Make Lousy Villains - Rick Newman (usnews.com)
Wow, a 3.4 percent profit margin. Some health insurers are even nonprofit companies. It is the “evil” pharmaceutical companies that seem to have the high profit margins. Should we go after their profits?

Yet again I ask: do either of the exaggerations change the problem or the solution? No. No, not at all. But hey, you can flipout hardcore about it anyway.

You may have asked this in another thread or on another forum, but I have yet to see it asked in this thread.

No, it does not change the problems we have with health care, however, his exaggerations and lies do decrease his credibility on the issue. How can we trust someone who exaggerates and lies to provide us with a solution that actually works?

I'm not familiar with it either way, thus I didn't comment. See there's this thing that hicks don't seem to understand called the political neutral. It is pretty close to the scientific neutral, but generally works like this: when I don't know something, I don't comment. I know, crazy thought to not just blatantly or blindly pick a side based on what my fellow ignorant American believes, but it's what I practice. So no, I don't blindly believe it to be a lie, nor do I believe it to be truth. Your "source" has already proven unreliable (that's completely incorrect unreliable, not just exaggeration unreliable, for the record).

So, why don’t you take off the partisan blinders and just familiarize yourself with Obama’s lies? He stated that he was never for a single payer system. How much more blatant can you get? Is it really that difficult to understand this concept based upon the evidence? I think you would prefer to stay “politically neutral” to avoid admitting Obama lied.

Calling me a “hick” when you know absolutely nothing about me is very presumptuous.

And what part of a public option is degraded because of his overestimates? No, you're not allowed to just allude to something being bad, you need to say *why* it's bad. So, why is a public option bad, and how do the exaggerations make it worse?)

It degrades my trust in Obama. It convinces me he does not know what he is talking about. He is not really addressing the root causes of the health care cost increases. Here are some facts with some questions for you about Obama’s “public option” plan:

• The government already spends around one-half of the total amount on health care through existing government programs. So where is the cost savings in this half? Where is the unbiased analysis which shows us the significant savings that is going to be seen in these programs without cutting benefits?
• About one-half of the increase in costs over the last decade has been a result of technological advances in the medical field. Are we going to stop becoming the leader in medical technology development? How is Obama going to address this half of all cost increases?
• The American people are shouldering the burden for pharmaceutical development. These costs are not being carried by other countries. This is not fair if other countries are to see the benefit of these new drugs is it? How is Obama addressing this?
• Another reason for increased health insurance premiums is because of government intrusion into the market through Medicare, Medicaid, etc. Does Obama mention or address this at all either?

The lie you are not addressing is really his biggest and worst on this subject. He is selling his plan as a “public option”, and saying he was never for a single payer system. He should know full well that in providing a “public option” that it will continue to increase private health insurance premiums which will force more people to the “public option”, which will then eventually become the only option. Then it won’t be an option at all and he will have his single payer system.

Further government intrusion into the market will not solve our problems, it will only compound them. Just look at how well government’s intrusion into the banking, housing and automobile market has worked out if you need any proof.

more power? praytel who is gaining this "power" by trying to extend our lives and improve our standard of care? power over who? the people who can continue using their private insurance?

really tho? you think the only reason the government is making any changes to our healthcare is cuz of a conquest for power? my lil friend the bar graph suggests otherwise:

Show me where I said that it is the only reason. I think you need to re-read what I said. You are setting up a very nice straw man argument here.

I agree that changes need to be made. I just want it done without the government becoming an even bigger health insurance provider.

 

[HUGGY]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

You are either mindboggingly stupid or being paid to troll by the HMO lobby.

 

[trueblue]

What about other inconsistencies-- like creating a public option for those who can't afford health insurance but promising it will operate only on premiums it generates? What the?!! I thought the people couldn't afford health insurance?!

Or the claim that the plan will give Americans more choices, while removing the choice not to have health insurance? I thought we were going to have more choices, instead the plan points to fewer.

Like you said, there are lots of these kinds of examples.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

Maple just for the sake of accuracy: The medical care sector represents 16% plus of the economy not 6%.

And without any major changes, it will be 33% of the economy within twenty years.

So what? Medicine as a growth industry is not a bad thing. What about all the ancillary industries that benefit from a robust medical sector?

If manufacturing were 33% of the economy you wouldn't be complaining.

How about government costing over 40% of GDP? Why aren't you complaining about that?

 

[Christopher]

Too many of us are focusing on arguing about a supposed lie Obama told about illegal immigrants and the health care plan. I think it is important to point out the clear lies he has told recently about health care and I challenge anyone who thinks they are not lies to provide evidence to the contrary.

These are just a few of the recent lies classified as “false” by PolitiFact.com related to the topic of health care. There are others which he has told which PolitiFact classified as half or partially true, which I think still classify as lies.

PolitiFact | Obama says preventive care saves money. It doesn't.

PolitiFact | Obama says lower obesity rates would save Medicare $1 trillion

PolitiFact | Obama has praised single-payer plans in the past

PolitiFact | One health insurance company turned a profit, but not a record

You are either mindboggingly stupid or being paid to troll by the HMO lobby.

Actually, neither of those are true. Perhaps you would be willing to logically explain how you reached your conclusions about me.

 

[Meister]

It became very obvious to me that he does not know much about the health care industry when he demonized doctors as ripping the toncils out of people and amputating people's limbs to make a profit. His whole agenda is not about health care reform, it's about a take over of 6% of our economy.

It became very obvious to me that you are brainwashed by GOP Hate-Run media when you demonize Obama for telling the truth that you don't want to hear. Your whole agenda is making Obama fail and not about improving health care.

Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits
Unnecessary surgery exposed! Why 60% of all surgeries are medically unjustified and how surgeons exploit patients to generate profits

Every year millions of Americans go under the knife, but many of them are enduring great pain and shelling out thousands of dollars for surgeries they don't really need. In fact, the only people who seem to really benefit from these unnecessary medical procedures are the medical professionals who stand to make exorbitant amounts of money from performing them.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed each year, writes Gary Null, PhD., in Death by Medicine. Rather than reverse the problems they purport to fix, these unwarranted procedures can often lead to greater health problems and even death. A 1995 report by Milliman & Robertson, Inc. concluded that nearly 60 percent of all surgeries performed are medically unnecessary, according to Under The Influence of Modern Medicine by Terry A. Rondberg. Some of the most major and frequently performed unnecessary surgeries include hysterectomies, Cesarean sections and coronary artery bypass surgeries.

Natural News???
Just need to take some garlic...right?