Soldiers facing more attacks..

[Creek]

I think the rulership in Iraq,will be more worse than Hussein himself..if we don't really clean that place up...It's to the point..we might have to take a Stalin approach......These Muslims are radicals...and Iran is making this happen...We have to finish this...and I think it's gona take some tough love...and crush these resistance movements to shreds....We have to finish this!!...maybe go back to the air campaign,till it's safe for our ground troops again...

There is no other way..We can't mince words,or make it all look good on paper...War,,is war..and it's about time to start treating it..as just that!!

 

[5stringJeff]

The troops on the ground are treating it like war, which it is... it's just not major combat operations.

I think the only people who would have you believe that all conflict is over, and that Iraq is as safe as Hawaii, have their heads in the sand.

As far as the "stalin approach," I certainly hope you don't mean the slaughter of millions of innocents. That's one of the reasons we invaded Iraq in the first place - to overthrow the despot who killed millions of Iraqis over the last two decades.

 

[spillmind]

um... millions? are you exaggerating?

or do you have sources on this statement-

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by spillmind
um... millions? are you exaggerating?

or do you have sources on this statement-

I can find more to back up his claims, but you can start with these.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/news/20030404-1.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82879,00.html

 

[jimnyc]

Add this in as well

http://www.state.gov/s/wci/fs/19352.htm

 

[5stringJeff]

OK... so even if you take the lowest estimates in those articles, I still count about 700,000... not quite a million, but nothing to gloss over either.

BTW - Thanks Jimnyc!

 

[jimnyc]

No problem at all!

The World Health Organization has stated in the past that Iraqi documents uncovered since the end of the war suggest that up to 5 million Iraqis were executed or died in prison under Hussein's government.

Of course only certain numbers can be substantiated at this time, but the list is getting larger almost daily. As they find more mass graves and verify missing persons you'll finally see the catastrophic numbers.

 

[spillmind]

which further poses my question of what this humanitarian issue is all about.

what i don't seem to understand is the most heinous crimes were committed mid to late 80's.

why then wasn't Saddam depcited as the epitomy of evil immediately?

i agree these are heinous crimes, but why wouldn't we remove him then if we were so concerned about these people?

and please PLEASE don't give me the national objective of solely re-capturing kuwait. that still doesn't answer the moral issue that is being shamelessly plugged here.

all this coming from those that dropped cluster bombs from 20,000 ft.

 

[NightTrain]

Because the world was a very different place back then.

How's that for summing it all up?

 

[spillmind]

nice try, but ideals and morals do not take a complete 180° in a matter of a couple decades. you sound like dad saying, 'because i said so'. that's the weakest arguement i've heard yet!

i think you mean to say back then iraq was on our payroll, and these days we needed reasons to invade, occupy. newfound humanitarianism my ass.

 

[eric]

So following your logic spillmind, we should not learn from possible mistakes? The same argument could be applied to slavery, treating our Vietnam vets as criminals, beating our wives, you get the point. America has looked the other way many times in the past while crimes were committed. Sometimes this served a greater good, other times it was a mistake. Keep in mind we are not perfect, but who is, just take a look at the UN, as one example.

As far as ideals and morals, no your right they should not change, but experience tells us they do. I grew up in the late 60s and 70s and let me tell you morality today is quite different then back then. Society constantly goes thru paradigm shifts; it is the nature of social evolution.

And to imply that because we have worked with and even helped brutal regimes in the past makes us hypocritical is somewhat naive; many times it is necessary to create undesirable alliances to defeat a common enemy. How many times do courts grant immunity to criminals to fry bigger fish? Is it right, maybe not? But it works!

 

[spillmind]

i think people besides myself are sick of seeing american 'mistakes'. when you look at all the staged coups around the world, and the body count in the wake, the bloody greed stinks to high hell, and over time this acclaimed ideal shift is a tough pill to swallow. no one expects anybody to be perfect, but lying and reaching for reasons when they are convenient to your cause is hardly a leg to stand on. it's also hypocrisy.

the nature of social evolution should not compromise inherent human ideals, like 'thou shall not kill'.

you admit it isn't right. so we need to stop plugging all this righteousness. it's sickening, and it's false.

 

[Creek]

Look man..You think there is some Utopia answer to everything...History proves over,and over again all of mankinds mistakes....and in all of them we've come along ways!!..but in a sence could say we've gona backwards also...It's how you see it on your side of the table...The world is no different than a schoolyard with no monitors....More mistakes have been made by doing nothing,than taking action.........

I believe Stalin was responsible for more than a million deaths when you look at how he used his soldiers during WWII as targets..and human waves,and at the same time..HE WAS NO BETTER THAN HITLER...He did what he had to do..to protect his country..and keep his rule.........Now how on Gods Earth can you put any right,or wrongs into that conflict between Germany,and Russia?...I suppose you have an answer to that one too...Look man,when shit hits the fan...Sometimes being right is on the side that wins....If you can't handle the truth,and I don't even think you know what truth is...then believe in our mistakes...odds are..that might be the only place where truth lays....Every 40-50 years shit hit the fan again....and I have a feeling you'll find out thruth the hard way son..

America..and AMERICANS have done more good..than bad in this screwed up world..compared to any country in the world....Maybe someday your Jehova Witness ideals will make a paradise for us here on earth...in the mean time..stay the hell out of our way,or face world reality..

Creek

 

[spillmind]

aside from the militia leader claim you state (whatever *that* means), i'll treat your post like it came from someone with an objective point of view. I am not Utopian, merely a REALIST. what happened, HAPPENED, and it is FACT. if you want to excuse us from accountability, i would think it distorts your ability to be objective, but i doubt you care to see it from 'other ends of the table'. just speculation.

first off, i am not sure how staged coups of democratically elected leaders in other, argueably non-threatening countries is really PROTECTING our country. by this same logic, you could make a case for eliminating anyone possibly threatening to the US, and who is calling the shots there? furthermore, how can you expect exemption from these 'mistakes' when the cost thousands of HUMAN LIVES? and you call me utopian? you are clinging to a US 'good guy' facade that i am afraid those with a larger perspective on the global community do not share with you.

and aside from you quoting the rock 'If you can't handle the truth', which is very telling in itself, i am talking about OUR accountability here, not other countries. we could talk about them all day. if you are really trying to maintain this moral ground, you need to stop pointing fingers.

i am not a jehovah's witness, nor do i see the correlation of my views from your attempt at an analogy.

i mean, to sit there and say: 'More mistakes have been made by doing nothing,than taking action' ...how on earth do you hope to prove a statement like this? this is PURE SPECULATION, and you act like we are suddenly immune or in a much better situation facing 'terror' or whatever the hell you epitomize as evil in your view.

is it possible for you to stick to what has ACTUALLY happened before you and your militia go around blowing away people that look like foreigners trying to threaten your freedom?

'stay the hell out of our way' -what a joke. BWAHAHAHAH talk about arrogance!

 

[Creek]

Spillmind quotes:

aside from the militia leader claim you state (whatever *that* means), i'll treat your post like it came from someone with an objective point of view. I am not Utopian, merely a REALIST. what happened, HAPPENED, and it is FACT. if you want to excuse us from accountability, i would think it distorts your ability to be objective, but i doubt you care to see it from 'other ends of the table'. just speculation....END QUOTE:

*********************************************
Yes Mr.Spillmind..I see it from all sides of the table...I clearly putforth in my post to you..that making a sound reason for all mistakes..America's..or whatever county comes to your mind..we are vulnerable to mistakes...Reality is perceived through ones eyes..what looks right today,may be horribly distorted tomorow....Maybe if you'd be a parent..you'd look back at the upbringing of a child..or a religious point of view..that God know his children makes mistakes.....Accountability?..That's a tricky point of view ya got there....Who's to blame REALLY for the loss of lives in Iraq?...Mr.Bush..or Saddam?...He could of steped down from power..and saved the lives of HIS people(more like subjects)....or Bush coulda continuously droped 1 ton bombs for a year till his government collapsed....on strategic areas of interest.....or just let it ride...while he re-arms again,while the back stabbing French(allies..yeah right)...supply him..along with the Russian Mafia)...and let Israel take care of him..or Iran...have you considered those last two options?...Israel..and Iran...Do you think Bush..and his advisors get drunk..and drum up all these ideas to have face value to the world?...and I suppose since the WMD are not around(they are out there)...we made a bad mistake...This aint about finding WMD..it's about saving more future lives...and if you consider we're accountable..think again........Everyone is to blame here..not just the U.S......Should we of bombed Afghanistan before 911?.....Get real..course not....but now new rules come into play.....It's a shame..and yes..I weep for innocent lives...and those who die on both sides.....and mankind is to blame..and the ball has started to roll...After Saddam made an assination attempt...The country of Iraq would pay the price(sooner..or later)..after 911..that opened the door....This is not about oil...It's about action..and strength..and determination..All the things that make up this terrible war...and mothers weep for their sons on both sides..is all our fault?....You can't just jump in the middle..and say.."Hey guys..this is not right"..Well..might makes right(THATS REALITY)...Just as if you..and I were face to face...and all of us that sit around that table...see it differently....just as the 911 terroists did.......if you wana put us in the same shoes as they......so be it...but I'd die for America...cause I believe in it....We make mistakes...and it's easy to think one has all the answers.....or know what's right..We know what's right...but can we make a nation believe as 1...No..we can't...you can only be as real as what you follow..or who protects your sorry ass...weather you aggree..or not...THATS REALITY.....



Spillmind quotes:

first off, i am not sure how staged coups of democratically elected leaders in other, argueably non-threatening countries is really PROTECTING our country. by this same logic, you could make a case for eliminating anyone possibly threatening to the US, and who is calling the shots there? furthermore, how can you expect exemption from these 'mistakes' when the cost thousands of HUMAN LIVES? and you call me utopian? you are clinging to a US 'good guy' facade that i am afraid those with a larger perspective on the global community do not share with you.


************************************************

The global community?...That's a joke...The global community on a high percentage level is barbarian..and the ones who are half way responsible..profit of another war...We all feed on conflict..France is so peaceful..but builds bomb shelters..and supplies arms..the U.N is led by an African who's country still practices cannablism..and will never get their shit together..Russia is organized crime..and China...need I say more....The U.S. is king of the hill....We protect from enemies from with..and from out....The U.S Government..and our following...That's why we have a 436 strong malitia growing in #'s everyday..We care!!!..and so do you!!




and aside from you quoting the rock 'If you can't handle the truth', which is very telling in itself, i am talking about OUR accountability here, not other countries. we could talk about them all day. if you are really trying to maintain this moral ground, you need to stop pointing fingers.

i am not a jehovah's witness, nor do i see the correlation of my views from your attempt at an analogy.

i mean, to sit there and say: 'More mistakes have been made by doing nothing,than taking action' ...how on earth do you hope to prove a statement like this? this is PURE SPECULATION, and you act like we are suddenly immune or in a much better situation facing 'terror' or whatever the hell you epitomize as evil in your view.

is it possible for you to stick to what has ACTUALLY happened before you and your militia go around blowing away people that look like foreigners trying to threaten your freedom?

'stay the hell out of our way' -what a joke. BWAHAHAHAH talk about arrogance!

************************************************

Your last comments is why America makes mistakes....No offence to you....but this country will go down the shitter...if you don't wise up........Now try..and post comments to make America a better place..than creating reasons for a guilty concience....We sleep better at night...knowing the bombs are falling where they are suppose too....Hope my post made a dent in your way of thinking....

Creek

 

[NightTrain]

So, Spillmind, say there's a ruthless dictator who was initially democratically elected that's killed well in excess of a hundred thousand people, estimates go as high as a million people murdered. He's imprisoned countless thousands more for their political views.

Which of the following three options is correct?

(A) Let the country sort it all out & not interfere, it's the citizens' fault for not taking action sooner. They probably deserve to die, the cowards!

(B) The USA lends support to an underground effort to overthrow the government via covert financial aid, intelligence & training to the opposition. There is a high chance that the plot will be discovered, the opposition brutally killed & the plot is embarrasingly revealed to the world.

(C) Invade and free the peoples of that country by brute military force & establishing a peaceful democracy with a pacifist constitution, similar to Japan's laws. Even though there will be US casualties, countless enemy casualties and civilian casualties.

You've squawked numerous times now about how we've meddled in other countries' affairs in the past. Now tell me what answer is the correct one.

It's really easy to sit there and piss and moan about people that have had to make some real hard decisions and criticize them.

I think what you don't understand is that sometimes there ISN'T a perfect choice and you're stuck with choosing the lesser of 8 evils.

 

[jimnyc]

Spillmind is going to choose:

(D) Drop some pretty purple pills from the sky turning the entire country into 60's hippie liberals. Saddam would have gave himself up but found not guilty due to temporary insanity.

I can see Baghdad Bob now:

"No need for you lovely people to bomb us anymore, we embrace peace now. You are only infidels if you don't join us in our journey to see the virgins. Peace be with you, Praise Allah"

Then the scene fades to black. We drop a big fuckin nuke on that shit ass country - problem eradicated! People will be angry, but all will be forgotten within 2 years (Just like 9/11)

 

[spillmind]

NT: this is the most i've seen you reach. comical.

i thought you said there is a lesser of eight evils... this is only three. and none of the above should be included, that is, if you had a little imagination.

(A) Let the country sort it all out & not interfere, it's the citizens' fault for not taking action sooner. They probably deserve to die, the cowards!

how do you *think* i am going to answer this one. again, please see my post as to why we didn't oust him immediately after his most heinous crimes. in fact, his death rate average per year was going DOWN. but that is irrelevant.
...PLEASE answer the question posed in my first post.


(B) The USA lends support to an underground effort to overthrow the government via covert financial aid, intelligence & training to the opposition. There is a high chance that the plot will be discovered, the opposition brutally killed & the plot is embarrasingly revealed to the world.

let me guess, this is to preserve democracy and freedom... but for who? oh we don't do this anymore? ...and we aren't the only one on the planet. these posts are getting predictable, and you INSIST on missing the point. ride your horse backwards, if it suits you~

(C) Invade and free the peoples of that country by brute military force & establishing a peaceful democracy with a pacifist constitution, similar to Japan's laws. Even though there will be US casualties, countless enemy casualties and civilian casualties.

ummm... where the hell are you talking about? not iraq! certainly NOT AFGHANISTAN! japan never had this immediate unrest, nor the huge loss of life, nor is it in a highly unstable region. you are talking apples and oranges, plain and simple! AND THEY CALL *ME* UTOPIAN! bwahahahahaha
but again, you evade the question as to why it's suddenly the right thing to do to free these people. BS!
don't insult our intelligence!

squawked, (i love that) you just replied to a squawker. what does that make you? hahaha. kidding... your verbage just kills me sometimes.

the lesser of two evils may apply in the filthy slimy political race for (p)resident, you can't tell me the coups in central america and south america, africa were all to free the people. do a little research into shell's involvement in central america. how about chevron in africa.

for the people's sake my ass! democracy? don't make me hurl!

and jimnyc: for an ovbiously intelligent guy (at least from a front end web dev perspective) you post some pretty unintelligent stuff: 'Then the scene fades to black. We drop a big fuckin nuke on that shit ass country - problem eradicated! People will be angry, but all will be forgotten within 2 years (Just like 9/11)'

oh, if it were only that easy. you would be happy until new enemies pop up everywhere on the map. and then you go and blow up everyone? that's genius. foresight anyone?

how are purple pills dropping from the sky going to bring an entire populace into a fictional stereotype? please *try* to reply in serious manner to my original post(s), if you can manage. or, post stuff like this, if that's all you can muster

and creek:

which militia are you leading up in montana? sure hope people don't call the state dept. anonymously and say they think you guys are terrorists or another waco. welcome to the new military tribunals! hahaha.

but in all seriousness, i simply can't level with you. you've got some strange vendetta about france... do you know who *else* has sold them weapons? what? we're not AS BAD?
contradictions anyone?

you seem to be all about the imposing of the american way of life on the world. you want democracy for us, but not everyone else. how would you feel about the iraqis voting in our elections?

you are someone who is NOT protecting me, but only making MORE ENEMIES. thanks but no thanks! take a look at iraq/afghanistan and GET A FREAKING CLUE!

we are there because halliburton will NEVER WANT TO LEAVE, and that's it! don't give me this protecting crap. it makes me ill. i would implore you to prove this as FACT, or admit it's your OPINION.

'knowing the bombs are falling where they are suppose too'... this shows you are lost. if you have to go there with your points, YOU'VE LOST.
does it look like we WON? WTF?!!! how?! kinda like we are winning the war on drugs? don't kid yourself.

what you people seem to be missing is that we can be king of the hill WITHOUT the ATROCIOUS body count. put your gun down, believe me, it CAN BE DONE!

at least people aren't defending that humanitarian crap anymore.

 

[jimnyc]

and jimnyc: for an ovbiously intelligent guy (at least from a front end web dev perspective) you post some pretty unintelligent stuff: 'Then the scene fades to black. We drop a big fuckin nuke on that shit ass country - problem eradicated! People will be angry, but all will be forgotten within 2 years (Just like 9/11)

oh, if it were only that easy. you would be happy until new enemies pop up everywhere on the map. and then you go and blow up everyone? that's genius. foresight anyone?

how are purple pills dropping from the sky going to bring an entire populace into a fictional stereotype? please *try* to reply in serious manner to my original post(s), if you can manage. or, post stuff like this, if that's all you can muster

I'll just reply to the portion directed at me. I wouldn't want to take any joy away from NT or Creek!

I guess you didn't see the satire in my comments. Or maybe you did and figured you would argue with it anyway. I'd be willing to bet you would argue with a stop sign if it was capable of talking back to you!

And I'll speak personally now. I say blow up all the terrorist scumbags. More will popup? Blow them scumbags up too! Spend the next 2 years emptying the country one by one. If it's an innocent citizen, let him out as a refugee. If it's a terrorist, kill him on the spot. Once all the friendlies are out, drop a couple hundred nukes around the perimeter. That will be the end of the cockroaches hiding in caves and underground vaults. (this goes for both Iraq and Afghanistan). On to the next country harboring fugitive terrorists... I'd say in about 10 years terrorism will be operating at a much smaller rate

Seriously though, what other countries are concerned about the welfare of the USA? How many are coming to OUR aid and health? How many are helping us fight our crime problems? How many ya think are gonna chip in after this hurricane blows through, and maybe offer a little foreign aid? ZERO! And I'm supposed to be concerned about the lost lives of terrorists and those that harbor them? You do the best you can to avoid the innocent and thats that. If they don't like it, fuck 'em. If France doesn't like it, fuck 'em. If the UN doesn't like it, fuck 'em. If the liberals don't like it, fuck 'em and let them move to France. Whoever doesn't like it can kiss my USA loving, military defending, warmongering ass!

I'm sick of all this pussyfooting around about the *wars*. We should/could have blown them all up within 24 hours of 9/11! The fact that less than 10,000 total deaths have occurred is a gift from Allah.

I prayed that day that all those responsible for that tragedy and anyone like them will have hell to pay x10. I guess prayers do get answered sometimes.

 

[eric]

Amen reverend !