Socialized medicine does not work...

[Toro]

Sure, if you lower the quality of care. That's how they do it. You end up with crappy care.

Or, you end up with all the rich getting private insurance, while the poor end up dying on waiting lists.

Or, you end up with the system going broke, and there are several that are in desperate situations right now.

The best system is a Capitalist system. The more we move away from that, the more we have those same problems here.

No. My wife got great care. So did I when I broke my leg in the UK.

We have great health care in Aust and NZ. It is mainly public, but there is private too. The weird thing is, you pay for private and it doesn't even pay for the hospital visit. It's very weird and skewed towards the health industry making a profit. The UK system is okay as are most of the Scandinavian countries.

In one poll, 86% of Canadians wanted more socialized medicine rather than more private care.

New poll shows Canadians overwhelmingly support public health care

Having been in both systems, there are positives and negatives to each. If you are lower middle class or lower, you're probably better off with socialized medicine. If you are upper middle class or higher, you are probably better off with private medicine.

I don't think there will ever be a single-payer, socialized medical system in America in my lifetime.

But what most people don't know is that 43%-44% of American healthcare spending is through the government. It is 75% in Canada.

 

[Toro]

Then you must be Trump supporter...since he has stated he wants to change that..right?

I fully support Trump ending this parasitic practice.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

And that is not true.....

'Sweden's healthcare is an embarrassment'

Swedish was once a health care model for the world. But that is hardly the case anymore.

This is not primarily due to the fact Sweden has become worse - rather it is the case that other countries have improved faster.

That Sweden no longer keeps up with those countries is largely due to its inability to reduce its patient waiting times, which are some of the worst in Europe, as the latest edition of the Euro Health Consumer Index (EHCI) revealed in Brussels on Monday.

The 2014 EHCI also confirms other big problems within Swedish healthcare.

Sweden's overall ranking dropped from eleventh to twelfth place - a steady decline since 2007, when Sweden was in sixth place. Sweden saw itself surpassed by all other Nordic countries, and its gap from the top is growing.

 

[2aguy]

Sure, if you lower the quality of care. That's how they do it. You end up with crappy care.

Or, you end up with all the rich getting private insurance, while the poor end up dying on waiting lists.

Or, you end up with the system going broke, and there are several that are in desperate situations right now.

The best system is a Capitalist system. The more we move away from that, the more we have those same problems here.

No. My wife got great care. So did I when I broke my leg in the UK.

We have great health care in Aust and NZ. It is mainly public, but there is private too. The weird thing is, you pay for private and it doesn't even pay for the hospital visit. It's very weird and skewed towards the health industry making a profit. The UK system is okay as are most of the Scandinavian countries.

In one poll, 86% of Canadians wanted more socialized medicine rather than more private care.

New poll shows Canadians overwhelmingly support public health care

Having been in both systems, there are positives and negatives to each. If you are lower middle class or lower, you're probably better off with socialized medicine. If you are upper middle class or higher, you are probably better off with private medicine.

I don't think there will ever be a single-payer, socialized medical system in America in my lifetime.

But what most people don't know is that 43%-44% of American healthcare spending is through the government. It is 75% in Canada.

Most Canadians are healthy and don't realize that they can have better......if you don't know better, you don't know what you are missing.......until you are old....and the system fails you.....and then it is too late and no one is paying attention to you.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

You have bought the lie.....you need to actually do some looking into these systems...they are all failing......and can't be sustained....

Britain, France, Sweden, New Zealand.....their healthcare systems are collapsing...

WHO | New Zealand cuts health spending to control costs

New Zealand cuts health spending to control costs
New Zealand’s health-care system is undergoing a series of cutbacks to reduce costs, but critics are concerned that the health of people on low incomes and in some population groups may suffer. Rebecca Lancashire reports in our series on health financing.
When Robyn Pope was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2008 she was told that she would have to wait two months for a mastectomy if she wanted breast reconstruction as part of her treatment in the public health system. “Two months may not seem like a long time,” says Pope, a mother of three, who lives on the Kapiti Coast of New Zealand, “but a day lived knowing that you have cancer in your body is like an eternity”.

The underlying reason for the delay was a familiar one – funding. Like other countries offering universal health care, New Zealand struggles to meet the steadily growing demand for a full range of high-quality health services offered largely for free to everyone, while remaining cost efficient. In the past eight years, New Zealand’s total health expenditure has doubled to 3.6 billion New Zealand dollars (NZ$) (US$ 10 billion). In the face of economic slow down, the government is calling for reform to rein in this expenditure.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

France......their system is going broke too....

France's Health-Care System Is Going Broke

Yet France’s looming recession and a steady increase in chronic diseases including diabetes threaten to change that, says Willy Hodin, who heads Groupe PHR, an umbrella organization for 2,200 French pharmacies. The health system exceeds its budget by billions of euros each year, and in the face of rising costs, taxpayer-funded benefits such as spa treatments, which the French have long justified as preventive care, now look more like expendable luxuries.

“Reform is needed fast,” Hodin says. “The most optimistic believe this system can survive another five to six years. The less optimistic don’t think it will last more than three.”

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Finland.....it is messed up too..........you have to stop swallowing the lies of the left....

Why is Finland’s healthcare system failing my family? | Ed Dutton

Finland’s health service has been in a parlous state for decades and it is getting worse.

According to an OECD report published in 2013, the Finnish health system is chronically underfunded. The Nordic nation of five million people spent only 7% of GDP on its public health system in 2012, compared with 8% in the UK. In 2012, the report found, 80% of the Finnish population had to wait more than two weeks to see a GP. Finland’s high taxes go on education and daycare.

Finland has more doctors per capita than the UK but, at the level of primary care, a far higher proportion of these are private than is the case in Britain. And the Finnish equivalent of the NHS is far from free at the point of use.

A GP appointment costs €16.10 (£12.52), though you pay for only the first three visits in a given year. A hospital consultation costs about €38, and you pay for each night that you spend in hospital, up to a maximum of €679. And once you get to the chemist, there is no flat fee; no belief that you shouldn’t be financially penalised for the nature of the medicine you require.

The service is not national, but municipal, meaning that poorer areas of the country tend to have a bad health service and limited access even to private GPs, who set up practices in more affluent areas.

And his personal story....

magine going to your nearest doctors’ surgery at 9am on a weekday with your sick six-year-old daughter because you cannot make an appointment over the phone. After your drive to another part of the city, you can’t simply book a time with the receptionist. There isn’t one. Instead, you must swipe your daughter’s national insurance card through a machine, which gives you a number. Then you and your feverish child simply sit and wait. Or rather, you stand, because the room is so crowded that people are sitting on the floor, on steps, or leaning against walls. The numbers come up on a screen every 10 minutes or so, in no particular order so you’ve no idea how long your wait will be as your daughter complains of feeling cold then hot and then cold again.

By 10.45, another patient’s dad exclaims he’s been there since 8.15, he’s had enough, and he’s going to go to a private GP. “You used to just be able to make an appointment with a doctor!” he says angrily.

You see, you are not even waiting to see a GP. You’re waiting to a see a nurse in order to justify to her how quickly your child needs to see a GP or whether she needs to see one at all. At 11.30, you give up and take your daughter to see a private doctor as well, forking out £50 for the privilege.

 

[Toro]

Most Canadians are healthy and don't realize that they can have better......if you don't know better, you don't know what you are missing.......until you are old....and the system fails you.....and then it is too late and no one is paying attention to you.

Canadians look at the American system and most don't want it.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Canada...it's system is failing too.....they have healthcare, but they don't have actual medical care....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.


The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

--------

Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

 

[2aguy]

Most Canadians are healthy and don't realize that they can have better......if you don't know better, you don't know what you are missing.......until you are old....and the system fails you.....and then it is too late and no one is paying attention to you.

Canadians look at the American system and most don't want it.

Most Canadians are healthy and young....and don't realize they have a crap system until it is too late....

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

So far...I have covered Finland, Sweden, NZ and in the past in other threads I have covered the UK and France...and each system is failing....need I do the others?

 

[Toro]

Most Canadians are healthy and don't realize that they can have better......if you don't know better, you don't know what you are missing.......until you are old....and the system fails you.....and then it is too late and no one is paying attention to you.

Canadians look at the American system and most don't want it.

Most Canadians are healthy and young....and don't realize they have a crap system until it is too late....

That's pretty silly.

Everyone has been through the system and everyone has had parents through the system.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Do you ever look at these countries....or do you just parrot the left wing crap about their healthcare being the best?

Iceland...even Iceland healthcare sucks.....

Iceland's Universal Healthcare (Still) On Thin Ice - The Reykjavik Grapevine

One year ago, Iceland’s lauded universal healthcare system seemed to be teetering off the edge. Doctors’ wages had stagnated after the economic crash, and following a bout of failed negotiations, they went on strike for the first time ever. While they coordinated their actions to avoid endangering patients’ lives, the doctors’ message was clear: if demands were not met, they would seek employment elsewhere.

Coupled with years of tough austerity measures, faltering morale, and an infrastructure in dire disrepair, there was not much slack to give. In an in-depth analysis, we at the Grapevine tried to figure out what, exactly, was going on, and where we were headed.

 

[Toro]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Canada...it's system is failing too.....they have healthcare, but they don't have actual medical care....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.


The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

--------

Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

And yet, despite all that, Canadians look at the American system and say "No thanks. We'll keep ours."

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Canada...it's system is failing too.....they have healthcare, but they don't have actual medical care....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.


The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

--------

Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

And yet, despite all that, Canadians look at the American system and say "No thanks. We'll keep ours."

And that is why Canadians come to America for surgeries they can't get in Canada........the rich in Canada come to America for life saving medical procedures....the regular Canadians don't know any better.....

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Canada...it's system is failing too.....they have healthcare, but they don't have actual medical care....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.


The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

--------

Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

And yet, despite all that, Canadians look at the American system and say "No thanks. We'll keep ours."

They say "No Thanks" until they actually have to deal with Canadian healthcare in a life or death situation....

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab.

And the truth.......that Canadians don't see until it is too late.....

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

and Norway......

Government Health Care Horror Stories from Norway

I'll admit this: if, like me, you're a self-employed person with a marginal income, the Norwegian system is, in many ways, a boon – as long as you're careful not to get anything much more serious than a cold or flu.

Doctors' visits are cheap; hospitalization is free. But you get what you pay for. There are excellent doctors in Norway – but there are also mediocrities and outright incompetents who in the U.S. would have been stripped of their licenses long ago. The fact is that while the ubiquity of frivolous malpractice lawsuits in the U.S. has been a disgrace, the inability of Norwegians to sue doctors or hospitals even in the most egregious of circumstances is even more of a disgrace.

Physicians who in the U.S. would be dragged into court are, under the Norwegian system, reported to a local board consisting of their own colleagues – who are also, not infrequently, their longtime friends.

(The government health system's own website puts it this way: if you suspect malpractice, you have the right to “ask the Norwegian Board of Health Supervision in your county to evaluate” your claims.)

As a result, doctors who should be forcibly retired, if not incarcerated, end up with a slap on the wrist. When patients are awarded financial damages, the sums – paid by the state, not the doctor – are insultingly small.
------------

Take the case of Peter Franks, whose doctor sent him home twice despite a tennis-ball-sized lump in his chest that was oozing blood and pus – and that turned out to be a cancer that was diagnosed too late to save his life. Apropos of Franks's case, a jurist who specializes in patients' rights lamented that the Norwegian health-care system responds to sky-high malpractice figures “with a shrug,” and the dying Franks himself pronounced last year that “the responsibility for malpractice has been pulverized in Norway,” saying that “if I could have sued the doctor, I would have. Other doctors would have read about the lawsuit in the newspaper. Then they would have taken greater care to avoid making such a mistake themselves. But doctors in Norway don't have to take responsibility for their mistakes. The state does it.” After a three-year legal struggle, Franks was awarded 2.7 million kroner by the Norwegian government – about half a million dollars.

Another aspect of Norway's guild-like health-care system is that although the country suffers from a severe deficit of doctors, nurses, and midwives, the medical establishment makes it next to impossible for highly qualified foreign members of these professions to get certified to practice in Norway. The daughter of a friend of mine got a nursing degree at the University of North Dakota in 2009 but, as reported last Friday by NRK, is working in Seattle because the Norwegian authorities in charge of these matters – who have refused to be interviewed on this subject by NRK – have stubbornly denied her a license. Why? My guess is that the answer has a lot to do with three things: competence, competition, and control. If there were a surplus of doctors and nurses instead of a shortage, the good ones would drive out the bad. Plainly, such a situation must be avoided at all costs – including the cost of human lives.

Then there's the waiting lists. At the beginning of 2012, over 281,000 patients in Norway, out of a population of five million, were awaiting treatment for some medical problem or other. Bureaucratic absurdities run rampant, as exemplified by this Aftenposten story from earlier this year:


Helga Kvinge discovered a lump in her breast in February. She couldn't get an appointment for a check-up at Oslo University Hospital before April 3. So she contacted a private hospital and was examined there.

On March 1, she got an appointment at the private center that offers to check whether women have cancer. A few days later she was informed that the lump was cancer. The tests were sent to the laboratory at Oslo University Hospital Ullevål, and the doctor who made the diagnosis works at both OUS and the private hospital.

Kvinge, and the doctor at the private hospital, were sure that since it was clear she had cancer, she would receive an offer for treatment at Oslo University Hospital since she lives in Oslo.

But on Thursday of this week she was informed by OUS that she couldn't be treated for her breast cancer until OUS itself had made the diagnosis.

Then there's the Oslo-area couple whose one-year-old daughter fell and broke her arm. They took her to a nearby hospital, where over a period of hours they signed in, were sent to a waiting room, saw a doctor, and had X-rays taken – only to be told that the little girl couldn't get a cast put on her arm there because the family's address put her in another hospital's district. They went to the other hospital, where they were put through the whole rigmarole all over again. Not a tragedy, but an example of the kind of dehumanization that infests the entire system.

And let's not forget rationing. “Death panels” are no fantasy. In a series of articles in 2010, Aftenposten reported on the decision by the Norwegian government's health director to refuse certain treatments to certain “large patient groups” in order to curb costs. For example, “we can extend the lives of patients with heart failure by installing a heart pump...but this is a service we probably can't offer. It's too expensive.” The same goes for respirators in cases of emphysema or chronic bronchitis: “It could prolong the lives of patients, but it's not something we can give to such a large group.” The elderly, likewise, are screwed: “we...spend too much money to extend the last phase of life for dying, often old, people.” Who's to decide who receives treatment and who doesn't? That, the health director answered, is a “political responsibility” – the job of politicians, not physicians.

 

[2aguy]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Australia....do you even look into these countries before you talk about their healthcare systems...?

Can Australian healthcare be saved?

In reality, Australians pay more in cash out of our pockets that's not reimbursed than almost any other country in the world. Public hospitals are bursting at the seams. Private health premiums keep going up. We pay for procedures, tests and doctor visits rather than care and good outcomes.

So is it all going to crash around our ears? Or can Australian healthcare be saved?

And more....

Health system fails some of Australia's most vulnerable and disadvantaged

Speaking on the reforms needed for the long term sustainability of Australia’s health system, Mr Bowles outlined the pressures facing Australia’s health system, particularly for disadvantaged communities, those in aged care, with chronic illnesses and relying on mental health systems.

“Reform is needed – we understand the compounding pressures and the strains they are putting on health budgets; whether they’re of national government level, state or territory government; mums or dads or individuals,” he said.

As part of a review of primary healthcare, mental health and dental care, Mr Bowles said they were examining the 5700 items on the Medicare Benefits Scheme, some of which have not been updated for 30 years.

“The review is being done over a number of stages, we’ve initially targeted a two year period. It’s already recommended the removal of 23 low volume items from the MBS that are seen not to be clinically effective,” he said.

 

[Toro]

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Canada...it's system is failing too.....they have healthcare, but they don't have actual medical care....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.


The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

--------

Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

And yet, despite all that, Canadians look at the American system and say "No thanks. We'll keep ours."

And that is why Canadians come to America for surgeries they can't get in Canada........the rich in Canada come to America for life saving medical procedures....the regular Canadians don't know any better.....

The rate of Canadians leaving Canada for medical procedures is about half that of Americans leaving the US for medical procedures. In the US, it's called "medical tourism" and people go abroad because the US system is so expensive.

 

[Toro]

Where is socialized medicine not working?

Everywhere it's been tried

Tried and works in UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland....

Canada...it's system is failing too.....they have healthcare, but they don't have actual medical care....

If Universal Health Care Is The Goal, Don't Copy Canada

Amongst industrialized countries -- members of the OECD -- with universal health care, Canada has the second most expensive health care system as a share of the economy after adjusting for age. This is not necessarily a problem, however, depending on the value received for such spending. As countries become richer, citizens may choose to allocate a larger portion of their income to health care. However, such expenditures are a problem when they are not matched by value.


The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

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Long wait times in Canada have also been observed for basic diagnostic imaging technologies that Americans take for granted, which are crucial for determining the severity of a patient’s condition. In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month.

These wait times are not simply “minor inconveniences.” Patients experience physical pain and suffering, mental anguish, and lost economic productivity while waiting for treatment. One recent estimate (2013) found that the value of time lost due to medical wait times in Canada amounted to approximately $1,200 per patient.

There is also considerable evidence indicating that excessive wait times lead to poorer health outcomes and in some cases, death. Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association recently noted that “[d]elayed care often transforms an acute and potentially reversible illness or injury into a chronic, irreversible condition that involves permanent disability.”

And yet, despite all that, Canadians look at the American system and say "No thanks. We'll keep ours."

They say "No Thanks" until they actually have to deal with Canadian healthcare in a life or death situation....

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab.

And the truth.......that Canadians don't see until it is too late.....

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

Canadians know America 1000x better than Americans know Canada.

Maybe if Americans had Canadian medicine, 86% of Americans would want more of it just like Canadians do.