Socialism Wan Again!

[germanguy]

What to say if ignorance is used as a method of fact-finding PC.
And reading the Telegraph does not give you more insight into the EU than watching Fox News into the US.

The EU is no nation, nor state nor Union in a way Americans understand it.
It is a suprannational organisation of nation states. You can, as a member, get out again.
Try this in a federal state (remember the Civil War).

So, if the British people in a referendum decide to leave,they will do. If not, not.
Perhaps it will ruin them, or make them richer, whatever. Future will show.

For the rest, first have a look how the decisionmaking is done in Brussels and how the EU works, than come back.

Regards
ze Germanguy

 

[PoliticalChic]

What to say if ignorance is used as a method of fact-finding PC.
And reading the Telegraph does not give you more insight into the EU than watching Fox News into the US.

The EU is no nation, nor state nor Union in a way Americans understand it.
It is a suprannational organisation of nation states. You can, as a member, get out again.
Try this in a federal state (remember the Civil War).

So, if the British people in a referendum decide to leave,they will do. If not, not.
Perhaps it will ruin them, or make them richer, whatever. Future will show.

For the rest, first have a look how the decisionmaking is done in Brussels and how the EU works, than come back.

Regards
ze Germanguy

1. Gee....first Americans know nothing....

....Fox News, the same....

...now, the UK Telegraph, the same...

You sound like one-note Otto.....


2. "Now, however, governments across Europe are scrambling to avoid the fate of Greece. Moreover, they are doing so by contemplating—and, in some cases, implementing—the hitherto unthinkable: reducing their budget deficits by diminishing the expansive welfare states to which many Europeans have long been accustomed.

3. …several decades of low economic growth. As the Czech president Václav Klaus recently observed, “average annual economic growth in the eurozone countries was 3.4 percent in the 1970s, 2.4 percent in the 1980s, 2.2 percent in the 1990s and only 1.1 percent from 2001 to 2009.” “A similar slowdown,” Klaus added, “has not occurred anywhere else in the world.”

4. A second problem is Europe’s profound demographic decline. On current projections, for example, Spain’s over-65 population is set to increase from its present level of 17 percent to 25 percent by 2030.

5. …a disinclination of many European politicians—on the left and right—to concede that the post-war European effort to use the state to provide as much economic security as possible has encountered an immovable obstacle in the form of economic reality. Yet it is arguable—albeit highly politically incorrect to suggest—that it also reflects the workings of a potentially deadly nexus between democracy (or a certain culture of democracy) and the welfare state."
MercatorNet: Fatal attraction: democracy and the welfare state


And, ...

6. “Under Denmark's law 266b dealing with alleged hate speech, defendants are not allowed to prove the truth of their comments and all that is needed for conviction is whether any one person feels offended.”
Decision in Denmark | FrontPage Magazine


...and...

7.An overseas holiday used to be thought of as a reward for a year’s hard work. Now Brussels has declared that tourism is a human right and pensioners, youths and those too poor to afford it should have their travel subsidised by the taxpayer.
Under the scheme, British pensioners could be given cut-price trips to Spain, while Greek teenagers could be taken around disused mills in Manchester to experience the cultural diversity of Europe.
What Counts as a (Taxpayer-Subsidized) Human Right? - NYTimes.com

Ja, Otto....

There are brilliant EU ideas!

Otto.... vielleicht sind Sie ein Esel....Ja?

 

[Toronado3800]

So what is this about? England is an above average member of the Union so they have some advantages to quit the team they joined voluntarily?

Excellent question!
1. "... quit the team they joined voluntarily..."

Can you give a few examples of teams which you joined voluntarily, and were then barred from quitting?



2. The referendum re: joining the EU was held in 1975. Since then the bureaucrats have passes a number of treaties.
No referendums have been allowed by the English officials....
But there have been demands for one.
Now...why do you believe there haven't been any?

3. "David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have an uphill struggle before any EU referendum according to a poll that says only one in three would vote to stay in the bloc.
The findings, which are likely to spark alarm in pro-European circles, suggest that anti-Brussels sentiment is sweeping through the British public. Given an in-out referendum on EU membership tomorrow, 50 per cent would vote “out” against 33 per cent “in” and 17 per cent who would not vote either way, according to the poll by Harris Interactive for the Financial Times..... The promise of a plebiscite is very popular with the electorate, with 50 per cent supporting the decision and only 21 per cent opposing it.... It would be the first national referendum on Europe since 1975 when Harold Wilson, the Labour prime minister, put membership of the European Economic Community to the public."
Only one in three wants UK to stay in EU - FT.com



4. Now...unless you believe it to be over your head....consider the writings of J.L. Talmon:

a. The latest variation of totalitarianism is neither religious, nor even political: it is cultural. “Totalitarian democracy” is a term made famous by J. L. Talmon to refer to a system of government in which lawfully elected representatives maintain the integrity of a nation state whose citizens, while granted the right to vote, have little or no participation in the decision-making process of the government.

b. “Totalitarian democracy” preaches absolute truth and a messianic vision of a “pre-ordained, harmonious and perfect scheme of things, to which men are irresistibly driven, and at which they are bound to arrive”; its politics is but one aspect of an all-embracing philosophy.

Both “liberal” and “totalitarian” democracy affirm the value of liberty; but for the first, liberty means individual spontaneity, for the second, reconciliation to an absolute, collective purpose—a kind of self-willed slavery, in fact. Both versions of “democracy” arose in the thinking of the 18th-century philosophes, but “liberal democracy” retreated before the bloody attempt to establish the City of God on earth and took refuge in the matter-of-factness of Anglo-American practice, while “totalitarian democracy” culminated eventually in Stalinism.


Get it?

The British folks have the illusion of democracy.....but no referendum.

Sounds like ObamaCare, huh?

Sounds like a pretty terrible form of government. What do they call it, a republic an? I never got my piece of mail telling me wherr my polling station was for Patriot Act voting day either.

Snide comments aside,

What are the rules for leaving the EU? Is this a problem with the British ppl just not voting in officials who care to scheduke a vote on the issue (because they are happy belonging)?

Really I am content anytime we are not holding a draft to send my son to put the Balkans back together or push Germany back to their borders from their new Atlantic ports. So a little mixing and solidarity over there seems like a good thing. But it is interesting none the less.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So what is this about? England is an above average member of the Union so they have some advantages to quit the team they joined voluntarily?

Excellent question!
1. "... quit the team they joined voluntarily..."

Can you give a few examples of teams which you joined voluntarily, and were then barred from quitting?



2. The referendum re: joining the EU was held in 1975. Since then the bureaucrats have passes a number of treaties.
No referendums have been allowed by the English officials....
But there have been demands for one.
Now...why do you believe there haven't been any?

3. "David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have an uphill struggle before any EU referendum according to a poll that says only one in three would vote to stay in the bloc.
The findings, which are likely to spark alarm in pro-European circles, suggest that anti-Brussels sentiment is sweeping through the British public. Given an in-out referendum on EU membership tomorrow, 50 per cent would vote “out” against 33 per cent “in” and 17 per cent who would not vote either way, according to the poll by Harris Interactive for the Financial Times..... The promise of a plebiscite is very popular with the electorate, with 50 per cent supporting the decision and only 21 per cent opposing it.... It would be the first national referendum on Europe since 1975 when Harold Wilson, the Labour prime minister, put membership of the European Economic Community to the public."
Only one in three wants UK to stay in EU - FT.com



4. Now...unless you believe it to be over your head....consider the writings of J.L. Talmon:

a. The latest variation of totalitarianism is neither religious, nor even political: it is cultural. “Totalitarian democracy” is a term made famous by J. L. Talmon to refer to a system of government in which lawfully elected representatives maintain the integrity of a nation state whose citizens, while granted the right to vote, have little or no participation in the decision-making process of the government.

b. “Totalitarian democracy” preaches absolute truth and a messianic vision of a “pre-ordained, harmonious and perfect scheme of things, to which men are irresistibly driven, and at which they are bound to arrive”; its politics is but one aspect of an all-embracing philosophy.

Both “liberal” and “totalitarian” democracy affirm the value of liberty; but for the first, liberty means individual spontaneity, for the second, reconciliation to an absolute, collective purpose—a kind of self-willed slavery, in fact. Both versions of “democracy” arose in the thinking of the 18th-century philosophes, but “liberal democracy” retreated before the bloody attempt to establish the City of God on earth and took refuge in the matter-of-factness of Anglo-American practice, while “totalitarian democracy” culminated eventually in Stalinism.


Get it?

The British folks have the illusion of democracy.....but no referendum.

Sounds like ObamaCare, huh?

Sounds like a pretty terrible form of government. What do they call it, a republic an? I never got my piece of mail telling me wherr my polling station was for Patriot Act voting day either.

Snide comments aside,

What are the rules for leaving the EU? Is this a problem with the British ppl just not voting in officials who care to scheduke a vote on the issue (because they are happy belonging)?

Really I am content anytime we are not holding a draft to send my son to put the Balkans back together or push Germany back to their borders from their new Atlantic ports. So a little mixing and solidarity over there seems like a good thing. But it is interesting none the less.

1. "Withdrawal from the European Union"
Withdrawal from the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Whether leaving the, or ObamaCare, or gay marriage...or sending your son to the Balkans....the closer we come to the will of the people, the more pleased I am.

a. Too often, bureaucrats and judges replace the will of the people with their whims and caprice....

b. "Marshall said, is not Congress, not the states, not for that matter the Supreme
Court of the United States. The people are the ultimate
source of authority; they have parceled out the authority that
originally resided entirely with them by adopting the original
Constitution and by later amending it. They have granted some
authority to the federal government and have reserved authority
not granted it to the states or to the people individually."
WILLIAM H. REHNQUIST
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol29_No2_Rehnquist.pdf

 

[Toronado3800]

Ok. How many elections have the British had since joining?

In our case the problem is the two party system. Keeps things stable, in a good ol boys network kinda way. Guess when this becomes an important enough issue over there they better start voting in like mined House of Commoners on up.

We more or less agree. I could live with monthly or bi monthly voting. Especially in the computer age it would not put ppl out that much.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Ok. How many elections have the British had since joining?

In our case the problem is the two party system. Keeps things stable, in a good ol boys network kinda way. Guess when this becomes an important enough issue over there they better start voting in like mined House of Commoners on up.

We more or less agree. I could live with monthly or bi monthly voting. Especially in the computer age it would not put ppl out that much.

1." How many elections have the British had since joining?"
Obfuscation.

It's been almost four decades since the folks have had a chance to speak to this issue.
That's two generations.


2. " I could live with monthly or bi monthly voting..."
Hey...you must be an American!

Actually...far fewer, probably...but it would shift power back to where it should be. Problem is that the motivators...the schools and media, are firmly in the hands of the Left.

I'd like to see both sides presented, then, referenda.

 

[germanguy]

PC is still not getting it.
Anyway.

There is no barrier for a member of the EU to leave it. According to international law, it´s members are sovereign states, who agreed by treaty to give certain specific sovereign rights in a specific form to a supranational institution. So, when you enter, you can leave it.
This is totally different to a federal state, whose parts are not sovereign nations.
If they want to leave, they normally have to fight it out.

So, if the British people in a referendum decide they would like to leave the EU, they are free to leave.
The big question is, what happens afterwards.
We simply do not know.
Perhaps a scenario like Norway is likely.
Norway rubberstamps about 90 % of all EU regulations, because these are needed if you want to participate economically with the EU.

Also possible is, that a more european-friendly Scotland will secede and become independent and an EU member.

I personally think, that further integration of Europe is making sense.
If you think otherwise, we all have to live wih it....

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC is still not getting it.
Anyway.

There is no barrier for a member of the EU to leave it. According to international law, it´s members are sovereign states, who agreed by treaty to give certain specific sovereign rights in a specific form to a supranational institution. So, when you enter, you can leave it.
This is totally different to a federal state, whose parts are not sovereign nations.
If they want to leave, they normally have to fight it out.

So, if the British people in a referendum decide they would like to leave the EU, they are free to leave.
The big question is, what happens afterwards.
We simply do not know.
Perhaps a scenario like Norway is likely.
Norway rubberstamps about 90 % of all EU regulations, because these are needed if you want to participate economically with the EU.

Also possible is, that a more european-friendly Scotland will secede and become independent and an EU member.

I personally think, that further integration of Europe is making sense.
If you think otherwise, we all have to live wih it....

"If you think otherwise, we all have to live wih it..."

It seems you're not getting it....

...I'm hoping to see the demise of the EU.




Perhaps if I make it simpler:

The Dog and the Wolf

A gaunt Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to meet a House-dog who was passing by. "Ah, Cousin," said the Dog. "I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food regularly given to you?"

"I would have no objection," said the Wolf, "if I could only get a place."

"I will easily arrange that for you," said the Dog; "come with me to my master and you shall share my work."

So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of the Dog's neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that had come about.

"Oh, it is nothing," said the Dog. "That is only the place where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it."

"Is that all?" said the Wolf. "Then good-bye to you, Master Dog."

Better starve free than be a fat slave.

 

[Euroconservativ]

What to say if ignorance is used as a method of fact-finding PC.
And reading the Telegraph does not give you more insight into the EU than watching Fox News into the US.

The EU is no nation, nor state nor Union in a way Americans understand it.
It is a suprannational organisation of nation states. You can, as a member, get out again.
Try this in a federal state (remember the Civil War).

So, if the British people in a referendum decide to leave,they will do. If not, not.
Perhaps it will ruin them, or make them richer, whatever. Future will show.

For the rest, first have a look how the decisionmaking is done in Brussels and how the EU works, than come back.

Regards
ze Germanguy

Were the people asked to join the Euro?

Do you remember referendums in France, Netherlands and Ireland a few years ago? If the EU doesn´t like the outcome, repeat it until voters get it "right"

Trying to sell the EU as an example of democracy and respect of national sovereignty is just laughable.

 

[Toronado3800]

PC, why do you think the European Union is a good or bad thing?

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, why do you think the European Union is a good or bad thing?

See post #49

 

[Toronado3800]

Because the EU keeps campaigning even if turned down?

When I see the same sales tax come up again and again it bothers me also.

Not exactly something I rally against but I understand.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Because the EU keeps campaigning even if turned down?

When I see the same sales tax come up again and again it bothers me also.

Not exactly something I rally against but I understand.

Not quite the same thing as ending sovereignty, is it.

Consider the following, from a speech by Jeremy Rabkin, professor of law, George Mason School of Law, June 5, 2009 at Washington, D.C. sponsored by Hillsdale College.

a. In 1919 there was an international conference to establish the International Labor Organization (ILO). The plan was that members would vote on labor standards, and member nations would automatically adopt those standards. The American members declined, saying that this would be contrary to the Constitution, specifically, it would be delegating the treaty-making power to an international body: we would be surrendering America’s sovereignty as derived from the Constitution. In 90 years, we have unilaterally adopted just three of the standards.


b. Delegation of judicial power is also open to question. Although the U.S. can agree to arbitration of disputes with foreign countries, but it is another thing to say that the rights of American citizens can be determined by foreign courts. This would be a delegation of judicial power in Article 3: “…shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts…”


c. In Medellin vs. Texas (2008), the International Court of Justice ruled that Texas could not execute a convicted murderer. The Supreme Court ruled that decisions of the International Court of Justice are not binding domestic law. The vote was 6 to 3 (Souter, Breyer, Ginsburg). How long before the Supreme Court throws out the Constitution?


d. In May, 2009 Spanish judges are boldly declaring their authority to prosecute high-ranking government officials in the United States, but our government has not protested this nonsense, akin to piracy, and has, in fact, accepted an internationalist atmosphere which makes this sort of thing seem plausible.



Do you see the plans behind both a UN and an EU?

 

[Uncensored2008]

This CENTURY will be the time in human history when NATIONS cease to be the primary players in GEO politics.

I believe that we will continue to have nations, but their wings will be clipped by the corporations that they are indebted to.

Nations will have about as much authority (or less) than the STATES have in this nation today.

They will perhaps have authority over local issues, but their fate will be decided by international organizations.

Thank you Comrade Lenin, for your valuable prediction. We here in 1917 realize that what you say is inevitable.

 

[Toronado3800]

Because the EU keeps campaigning even if turned down?

When I see the same sales tax come up again and again it bothers me also.

Not exactly something I rally against but I understand.

Not quite the same thing as ending sovereignty, is it.

Consider the following, from a speech by Jeremy Rabkin, professor of law, George Mason School of Law, June 5, 2009 at Washington, D.C. sponsored by Hillsdale College.

a. In 1919 there was an international conference to establish the International Labor Organization (ILO). The plan was that members would vote on labor standards, and member nations would automatically adopt those standards. The American members declined, saying that this would be contrary to the Constitution, specifically, it would be delegating the treaty-making power to an international body: we would be surrendering America’s sovereignty as derived from the Constitution. In 90 years, we have unilaterally adopted just three of the standards.


b. Delegation of judicial power is also open to question. Although the U.S. can agree to arbitration of disputes with foreign countries, but it is another thing to say that the rights of American citizens can be determined by foreign courts. This would be a delegation of judicial power in Article 3: “…shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts…”


c. In Medellin vs. Texas (2008), the International Court of Justice ruled that Texas could not execute a convicted murderer. The Supreme Court ruled that decisions of the International Court of Justice are not binding domestic law. The vote was 6 to 3 (Souter, Breyer, Ginsburg). How long before the Supreme Court throws out the Constitution?


d. In May, 2009 Spanish judges are boldly declaring their authority to prosecute high-ranking government officials in the United States, but our government has not protested this nonsense, akin to piracy, and has, in fact, accepted an internationalist atmosphere which makes this sort of thing seem plausible.



Do you see the plans behind both a UN and an EU?

I understand. Naturally I think our form of government is best and they think theirs is. Heck, I think it is somewhat interesting when a Scottish court finds Libya responsible for a bombi.g in a civil case. All interesting. But alas, we sue them, they sue us in their court.

Do you think the multi national unions lead to more regional peace as the whities in Europe might see eachother as brothers instead of Serbs and Lux's?

I am always skeptical about little ethnically non diverse countries.