So Obama can "evolve" on issues; But Romney "flip flops"?? Just...wow.

[RightWingFerret]

the Obama administration is a mirror reflection of the planet of the apes, when the chicago thugs started the evolution by attacking all average americans. (as if what happned in 2008 was all their fault,when we knew it was the democrats fault)

 

[koshergrl]

Has anyone else noticed the liberals, Hollywood elite, media, etc, etc, are all in step with celebration of Obama's new flip flop on the gay marriage issuee, but they say the president "evolved", not "flip flopped"? Romney is accused of "flip flopping" on the issues. But Obama does a complete 180 degree change, and they say he "evolved"?????

So....what the fuck? Is there just no shame in liberals? No limit to how far they'll sell their souls for this man? He announces, on the eve of a liberal hollywood elitist fundraiser, that he is NOW in favor of gay marriage. And they say he "evolved". Hypocrites.

Hypocrites, sure. But that's the way propaganda works. Propaganda has always been at the center of anything Obama is involved it. Because that's the way tyrants work.

 

[Sunni Man]

the Obama administration is a mirror reflection of the planet of the apes, when the chicago thugs started the evolution by attacking all average americans. (as if what happned in 2008 was all their fault,when we knew it was the democrats fault)

Obama.....Planet of the Apes........that is soo racist!!

But true.

 

[JoeB131]

If the vote were held today, those propositions would pass by even larger margins. When homosexual activists tried to get the issue back on the ballot, they couldn't get enough signatures to qualify. Support for the normalization of homosexuality is one of those issues that exists primarly among the young and white. That is a demographic that is leaving and being replaced by the more traditional thinking non-white foreigners as well as native blacks and hispanics.

So you think this is a good thing, how? That the best hope to sustain your homophobia is to have the country overrun by foreigners?

Seriously?

Reality check, guy. I'm 50 and I'll admit that my generation was pretty homophobic. These new generations, not so much.

Of course, I suspect it won't ever come down to referendums. Two ways this gets done nationally.

1) The Defense of Marriage Act is declared unconstitutional- which it is - And one of the six states where it is legal becomes the Nevada of gay marriage.

2) Judge Walker's ruling against Prop 8 gets to the Supreme Court, and is upheld in its entirity.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with the second option, I think it's judicial activism. (The first one isn't, because the full faith and credit clause is pretty explicit).

If you want to see where this is really going, look at the corporations. The big corporations are already extending full benefits to gay partners.

 

[koshergrl]

Extending full benefits to gay partners isn't the same thing as marriage. Those corporations are free to do that, and it's good that they do...

but that doesn't mean that they should have to do it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You mean it keeps losing in places where you can marry your cousin, Clem?

Like California, Oregon, and Wisconsin?

Why don't you just admit that you can't explain it?

Oregon had a vote 8 years ago, and California had it 4 years ago.

If those votes were held today, they'd lose.

And that's the point. The ground is shifting very quickly on this issue. Obama is nimble enough to realize it. Romney is too beholden to religious nutbags to make the leap.

and WaPo just buried him.

Four years ago California polled that it would vote Prop 8 down by as much as 14 points. You can spout all the bigotry and hatred you want, the facts are that the issue looses when push comes to shove despite the polls that show people favor it.

 

[Moonglow]

Mitt Romney evolved from being an abortion supporter to a pro lifer.
So what, you people think it is wrong to change your mind.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Fine, call it a flip-flop. Thankfully I've known a lot of people that have "flip flopped" on gay marriage. President Obama's "flip flop" went consistently forward towards full marriage equality.

President Obama
1996: “I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages,”

2004: “I am a fierce supporter of domestic-partnership and civil-union laws. I am not a supporter of gay marriage as it has been thrown about, primarily just as a strategic issue. I think that marriage, in the minds of a lot of voters, has a religious connotation. I know that’s true in the African-American community, for example. And if you asked people, ‘should gay and lesbian people have the same rights to transfer property, and visit hospitals, and et cetera,’ they would say, ‘absolutely.’ And then if you talk about, ‘should they get married?’, then suddenly…”

2006: "It is my obligation, not only as an elected official in a pluralistic society but also as a Christian, to remain open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided...and that in years hence I may be seen as someone who was on the wrong side of history."


2007: “The government has to treat all citizens equally. I am a strong supporter not of a weak version of civil unions, but of a strong version, in which the rights that are conferred at the federal level to persons who are part of the same-sex union are compatible. When it comes to federal rights, the over 1,100 rights that right now are not being given to same-sex couples, I think that’s unacceptable.”

2008: “I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that’s not what America’s about.”

2009: “I’ve called on Congress to repeal the so-called Defense of Marriage Act to help end discrimination to help end discrimination against same-sex couples in this country. Now, I want to add we have a duty to uphold existing law, but I believe we must do so in a way that does not exacerbate old divides. And fulfilling this duty in upholding the law in no way lessens my commitment to reversing this law. I’ve made that clear.”

2010: “I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage. But I also think you’re right that attitudes evolve, including mine.”

2011: “Every single American — gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, transgender — every single American deserves to be treated equally in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of our society. It’s a pretty simple proposition.”

2012: “I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same-sex couples should be able to get married.”


How many positions has Willard held on gay and lesbian equal rights? Where's the progression in going from being more pro gay than Ted Kennedy (like he claimed he would be in a letter to Log Cabin Republicans) to being wishy washy in a day on gay adoption?

Even on this the GOP wants to play the Wheel of False Equivalences? So sad...

Did you read what you posted? He supported them in 1996, then he didn't in 2004, 2006, and 2008. That is not consistently going forward, it is a step backward.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mitt Romney evolved from being an abortion supporter to a pro lifer.
So what, you people think it is wrong to change your mind.

Nope, we think it is wrong to treat one person that changes like he is wonderful and another who does the same thing like he is an opportunist.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since, in the real world, political flip flopping is generally defined as changing positions on an issue for political gain,

as opposed to changing on genuine principle,

are those of you calling Obama a flip flopper conceding that he is now on the right side of the issue,

or as some say, the right side of history?

And do you believe this helps him politically? In the fall?

 

[Dick Tuck]

There's a huge difference between doing constant 180s and incrementally changing your opinion. In Obama's, it was simply what should the fundamental right, that he consistently believed in, be called.

Romney bragging about recommending that a mandate be part of the law, and then doing a 180 and saying he'd kill the law if elected; saying that we should allow Detroit to go bankrupt, and then trying to take credit for Obama's plan working; Being strongly pro-choice, and then doing a complete huey; same with things like TARP, gay rights, etc., shows a man without conviction.

But don't let reality stand in the way of you wannabe spin doctors.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

There's a huge difference between doing constant 180s and incrementally changing your opinion. In Obama's, it was simply what should the fundamental right, that he consistently believed in, be called.

Romney bragging about recommending that a mandate be part of the law, and then doing a 180 and saying he'd kill the law if elected; saying that we should allow Detroit to go bankrupt, and then trying to take credit for Obama's plan working; Being strongly pro-choice, and then doing a complete huey; same with things like TARP, gay rights, etc., shows a man without conviction.

But don't let reality stand in the way of you wannabe spin doctors.

Hitting the Rustoleum a bit early today 'eh?

 

[Dick Tuck]

Since, in the real world, political flip flopping is generally defined as changing positions on an issue for political gain,

as opposed to changing on genuine principle,

are those of you calling Obama a flip flopper conceding that he is now on the right side of the issue,

or as some say, the right side of history?

And do you believe this helps him politically? In the fall?

Good point. The issue will energize the fundies, many of whom wouldn't have voted for a person they believed to be part of a religious cult. That takes balls, and shows leadership. It's not going to really help him much with swing voters, since it's probably near the bottom of their priorities. This is someone doing what they believe is the right and just thing, in the face of taking some political fallout. That's real leadership.

 

[Trajan]

There's a huge difference between doing constant 180s and incrementally changing your opinion. In Obama's, it was simply what should the fundamental right, that he consistently believed in, be called.

Romney bragging about recommending that a mandate be part of the law, and then doing a 180 and saying he'd kill the law if elected; saying that we should allow Detroit to go bankrupt, and then trying to take credit for Obama's plan working; Being strongly pro-choice, and then doing a complete huey; same with things like TARP, gay rights, etc., shows a man without conviction.

But don't let reality stand in the way of you wannabe spin doctors.

reality challenged? humm, so when Obama filled out and signed that form back in 1996, that was what again?


you don't even know what I am talking about, do you?

 

[Trajan]

Since, in the real world, political flip flopping is generally defined as changing positions on an issue for political gain,

as opposed to changing on genuine principle,

are those of you calling Obama a flip flopper conceding that he is now on the right side of the issue,

or as some say, the right side of history?

And do you believe this helps him politically? In the fall?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Has Romney ever flip flopped on an issue that hurt him politically? Did he ever flip flop in a way that wasn't meant to cynically gain political advantage?

The answer appears to be 'no'.

Contrast that to Obama's shift on the same sex marriage issue, which has produced a chorus of cheers from the Right who thinks this hurts him politically.

Which is it. Did Obama shift on principle, or for political reasons?

 

[Trajan]

Has Romney ever flip flopped on an issue that hurt him politically? Did he ever flip flop in a way that wasn't meant to cynically gain political advantage?

The answer appears to be 'no'.

Contrast that to Obama's shift on the same sex marriage issue, which has produced a chorus of cheers from the Right who thinks this hurts him politically.

Which is it. Did Obama shift on principle, or for political reasons?

false dichotomy but you knew that, or maybe not, its cear you will fall for weaseling when it suits you though...a rose by any other name is not a rose.



when romney 'went soft 'on pro life issues in his gov's race , I called it what it was, and still do, a flip flop, he has now, flipped back.hes now on a a double flop.

See how easy that was?


Now you on the other hand, ignore obamas signed declaration of 1996, to wit;"I favor legalizing same sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages." then, he flipped in 2007-08, and denied support for gay marriage..and then, when questioned over his 1996 missive, he sent plouffe to a netroots summit to disavow the 1996 form saying someone else in his office filled it out ....

just becasue he wound up where you wanted him, means squat.

 

[JoeB131]

Extending full benefits to gay partners isn't the same thing as marriage. Those corporations are free to do that, and it's good that they do...

but that doesn't mean that they should have to do it.

Actually, the whole concept of making employers the dispensers of health insurance is kind of retarded to start with, but leaving that to the side...

I point it out that the people who really run the GOP know that it's pretty much inevitable, and if the GOP is against it, it's because they are manipulating the stupid people for votes.

So in ten years, we'll have gay marriage in every state, and lower pay for working folks.

 

[bucs90]

I found it hilarious when the lefties on the news were saying the Romney "bullying" incident was so significant because he speaks so much to his character.

Yet, they'll say Obama's racist church, friendships with communists and terrorists, heavy drug use, womanizing behavior, dog eating, marxist leanings in college, etc, etc, etc, are "just things in the past".

Ok. Fair enough.

Obama still has a lot of evolving to do. Romney has already fully evolved. I'll take the more advanced human life form to lead our country. Obama can run again in 20 years when he's fully evolved!

 

[NYcarbineer]

Has Romney ever flip flopped on an issue that hurt him politically? Did he ever flip flop in a way that wasn't meant to cynically gain political advantage?

The answer appears to be 'no'.

Contrast that to Obama's shift on the same sex marriage issue, which has produced a chorus of cheers from the Right who thinks this hurts him politically.

Which is it. Did Obama shift on principle, or for political reasons?

false dichotomy but you knew that, or maybe not, its cear you will fall for weaseling when it suits you though...a rose by any other name is not a rose.



when romney 'went soft 'on pro life issues in his gov's race , I called it what it was, and still do, a flip flop, he has now, flipped back.hes now on a a double flop.

See how easy that was?


Now you on the other hand, ignore obamas signed declaration of 1996, to wit;"I favor legalizing same sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages." then, he flipped in 2007-08, and denied support for gay marriage..and then, when questioned over his 1996 missive, he sent plouffe to a netroots summit to disavow the 1996 form saying someone else in his office filled it out ....

just becasue he wound up where you wanted him, means squat.

Obfuscation just reminds us you don't know what you're talking about.

The issue is, did Obama come out for same sex marriage for political gain or not?

That would be answered by yes, no, or I don't know -

THEN you can explain your answer.