So, let's go ahead and go back to the '1967' borders and end the 'occupation'

[theliq]

TheOldSchool

I think at this point we can all agree that the people who decided creating Israel after WW2 was a good idea really fucked up and wouldn't do it again if they knew the shitstorm it would start.

(COMMENT)

This is one of those theoretical questions (calling for the hypothetical: "what if") where the answer is: "We'll never know now."

When I came back from Europe the first time, I had seen most of it through a 1970s version of a minds-eye; clearly not through the eyes of my father. The men and women who contributed to the WWII War effort were special, and had seen things and done things they would better left forgotten. The names and places like Monte Cassino, the Ardennes, Luzon, Normandy, Arnhem, Bastogne, provoked different memories for me then it did for them. The Battle of Bataan and Corregidor, Midway and Leyte Gulf --- all mean something more to them --- then it will ever will for me. They tackled and triumphed over two most powerful and ruthless military machines ever assembled.​

It is very difficult for me to guess what, as Tom Brokaw called them, the "Greatest Generation" would have thought about the today's plight of the Jewish People and the arrogance of the Arab-Palestinian, in an attempt to defy the establishment of a Jewish National Home, and engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the decision of the UN and the Allied Powers. I'm not sure how the would react to the complaints of the Arab Palestinian People given that many of the key leaders that fought to overrun Israel support the NAZIs. The policy of the day, was deNAZIfication.

When COL William Quinn, ACofS G-2 was compiling the CIC reports one finding in Dachau, he wrote these words:

View attachment 56920​

Given that the two leads of the Arab-Palestinian Resistance Militia Units (Holy War Army and Arab Liberation Army) were both NAZIs: (i) Hasan Salama, a special commando unit of the Waffen SS in Operation ATLAS, which was jointly operated by German Intelligence and Grand Mufti al-Husseini; (ii) Fawzi al-Qawuqi, was a Colonel in the Wehrmacht. Even the Grand Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husayni, an Arab nationalist, opponent to the establishment of a Jewish National Home, and future First President of the All Palestine Government, had direct ties to NAZI Germany, and the Führer.

Yes, it would be hard to say if they would choose the Jewish side --- or --- Arab-Palestinian side that was a former enemy element (Germany was still Occupied by Allied Forces).

Most Respectfully,
R

"today's plight of the Jewish People and the arrogance of the Arab-Palestinian, in an attempt to defy the establishment of a Jewish National Home"

That's the most biased nonsense I've ever seen.

It is true though, and anyone who is not brainwashed can see it as reality

Back to my original point, this "plight" of the Jewish people and anger at the "arrogant" Palestinians wouldn't exist if the creators of Israel had opted out instead of creating the country. If they had know the insane religious clusterfuck it would create, they never would have done it.

And where would that have left the Jews of the world then. How soon before another Nazi group started to plot to wipe them out. Just looking at this board the numbers of such people in America is alarming. The Jews had worldwide support for their national home until the birth of the UN when it was lost. The UN should have stamped out the Palestinian/arab nationalist movement in 1947 when they first started to attacks on the Jews hoping to wipe them out and claim all the land. If that had been done then the problems of today would not be there.

But it didn't have to have this outcome Pheo, The Jews were so Manic to get their own State that they behaved like ISIS are today........even today most Jews feel there could and should be a fairer way and end this schism for both peoples.steve..ps the Palestinians were never a problem to the Jews......quite the reverse.....Yet the Pro-Zionist Lobby try to say otherwise.ie the Palestinians were the easy target.

Yet I never hear you Guys speak out against the Jews real Enemies......The Germans,Croatians,Italians,Russians,Ukrainians,Catholics and all......Who willingly coerst Jews throughout Europe to the Death Camps and Burning Charnels,normally beating them up or murdering Jews.....these were the real Bastards...not the Palestinians at all.WHY DON'T YOU GUYs SPEAK OUT AGAINST THESE REAL BARBARIANS OF RECENT HISTORY,steve

 

[P F Tinmore]

Prior to 67 Gaza was part of Egypt and the W. Bank was part of Jordan. Since that wasn't a part of " Palestine" before 67 maybe it shouldn't be a part of it now. <snip>

Finally we have a post that is staying on topic.

Fair enough, what's so sacred about the 1949 ceasefire lines? Perhaps we should address the Palestinian territory seized by Zionist Israel and occupied illegally since 1948?

Why is Israel the only nation whose annexation of land won in a defensive war gets called "illegal"?

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

 

[Kondor3]

I think at this point we can all agree that the people who decided creating Israel after WW2 was a good idea really fucked up and wouldn't do it again if they knew the shitstorm it would start.

Coulda... shoulda... woulda... Israel holds all the cards now, and all the muscle. Game over. No need to go back to the 1967 borders.

 

[Kondor3]

Finally we have a post that is staying on topic.

Fair enough, what's so sacred about the 1949 ceasefire lines? Perhaps we should address the Palestinian territory seized by Zionist Israel and occupied illegally since 1948?

Why is Israel the only nation whose annexation of land won in a defensive war gets called "illegal"?

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

Yes, Tinny, we all know that you will never be satisfied with the 1967 borders, but will only be satisfied with the total erasure of the present State of Israel and surrender of all Jewish-held land. Well, you can't have it back. And, your attitude - widely prevailing amongst Palestinians - is why retreating to the 1967 borders will ultimately not do the Israelis any good, so... why bother? Your (side's) intransigence - so well articulated by you over time - is why you(r side) is now relegated to ever-shrinking scraps of non-contiguous land. Well done. By insisting upon having it all, from a position of inferior strength, you are now doomed to have none of it, in the final analysis. Palestinian Mentality. Brilliant. Not.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This logic defies reality.

Finally we have a post that is staying on topic.

Fair enough, what's so sacred about the 1949 ceasefire lines? Perhaps we should address the Palestinian territory seized by Zionist Israel and occupied illegally since 1948?

Why is Israel the only nation whose annexation of land won in a defensive war gets called "illegal"?

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

(COMMENT)

It is actually the other way around. The territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, no matter how the Arab-Palestinian want to define it, in control of by another country.

It was never the Arab-Palestinian's sovereign territory to either loose or rule in 1967.

The Arab-Palestinians gave the West Bank to Jordan through their right of self-determination.

Similarly, the All Palestine Government gave the Egyptian full reign in the Gaza Strip.

No, they call it Palestine because it is a remnant of the original territory (to be determined by the Allied Powers) to which the Mandate applied; and define as "Palestine" by the Order in Council. THEN, in 1988, the PLO declared independence; and they called it Palestine for the same reason.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This logic defies reality.

Fair enough, what's so sacred about the 1949 ceasefire lines? Perhaps we should address the Palestinian territory seized by Zionist Israel and occupied illegally since 1948?

Why is Israel the only nation whose annexation of land won in a defensive war gets called "illegal"?

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

(COMMENT)

It is actually the other way around. The territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, no matter how the Arab-Palestinian want to define it, in control of by another country.

It was never the Arab-Palestinian's sovereign territory to either loose or rule in 1967.

The Arab-Palestinians gave the West Bank to Jordan through their right of self-determination.

Similarly, the All Palestine Government gave the Egyptian full reign in the Gaza Strip.

No, they call it Palestine because it is a remnant of the original territory (to be determined by the Allied Powers) to which the Mandate applied; and define as "Palestine" by the Order in Council. THEN, in 1988, the PLO declared independence; and they called it Palestine for the same reason.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah, yeah, do you have a better explanation as to why they are still occupied Palestinian territories?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, you don't accept the reality.

P F Tinmore, et al,

This logic defies reality.

Why is Israel the only nation whose annexation of land won in a defensive war gets called "illegal"?

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

(COMMENT)

It is actually the other way around. The territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, no matter how the Arab-Palestinian want to define it, in control of by another country.

It was never the Arab-Palestinian's sovereign territory to either loose or rule in 1967.

The Arab-Palestinians gave the West Bank to Jordan through their right of self-determination.

Similarly, the All Palestine Government gave the Egyptian full reign in the Gaza Strip.

No, they call it Palestine because it is a remnant of the original territory (to be determined by the Allied Powers) to which the Mandate applied; and define as "Palestine" by the Order in Council. THEN, in 1988, the PLO declared independence; and they called it Palestine for the same reason.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah, yeah, do you have a better explanation as to why they are still occupied Palestinian territories?

(COMMENT)

What was it called when it was Annex to Jordan?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, you don't accept the reality.

P F Tinmore, et al,

This logic defies reality.

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

(COMMENT)

It is actually the other way around. The territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, no matter how the Arab-Palestinian want to define it, in control of by another country.

It was never the Arab-Palestinian's sovereign territory to either loose or rule in 1967.

The Arab-Palestinians gave the West Bank to Jordan through their right of self-determination.

Similarly, the All Palestine Government gave the Egyptian full reign in the Gaza Strip.

No, they call it Palestine because it is a remnant of the original territory (to be determined by the Allied Powers) to which the Mandate applied; and define as "Palestine" by the Order in Council. THEN, in 1988, the PLO declared independence; and they called it Palestine for the same reason.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah, yeah, do you have a better explanation as to why they are still occupied Palestinian territories?

(COMMENT)

What was it called when it was Annex to Jordan?

Most Respectfully,
R

To everybody besides Britain and Pakistan they were occupied Palestinian territories.

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, you don't accept the reality.

P F Tinmore, et al,

This logic defies reality.

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

(COMMENT)

It is actually the other way around. The territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, no matter how the Arab-Palestinian want to define it, in control of by another country.

It was never the Arab-Palestinian's sovereign territory to either loose or rule in 1967.

The Arab-Palestinians gave the West Bank to Jordan through their right of self-determination.

Similarly, the All Palestine Government gave the Egyptian full reign in the Gaza Strip.

No, they call it Palestine because it is a remnant of the original territory (to be determined by the Allied Powers) to which the Mandate applied; and define as "Palestine" by the Order in Council. THEN, in 1988, the PLO declared independence; and they called it Palestine for the same reason.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah, yeah, do you have a better explanation as to why they are still occupied Palestinian territories?

(COMMENT)

What was it called when it was Annex to Jordan?

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinian leadership agreed to not resist annexation of the West Bank by Jordan in return for immediate enfranchisement. On the other hand, they had little choice in the matter. They got the best deal they could. Only Britain, Pakistan and Iraq recognized the legality of the annexation anyway.

Gaza was never annexed by Egypt. The All-Palestine Government was the legal government of Gaza from 1948-1959 although under the complete influence of Egypt and had little power. But was the legal government. In 1956 Israel, Britain and France occupied Gaza. The British and the French withdrew from Gaza the same year. Israel maintained its occupation of Gaza until 1957. In 1959 Egypt stripped the All Palestine Government of any control and began administering Gaza directly. In 1962 Egypt allowed the creation of the directly elected Palestinian Legislative Council as a precursor of self-rule and eventual independence. Then in 1967 Gaza was reoccupied by Israel.

So your claim that Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere were somehow agreeable to Egyptian or Jordanian rule is ridiculous. They have always sought independence.

 

[Jroc]

TheOldSchool

(COMMENT)

This is one of those theoretical questions (calling for the hypothetical: "what if") where the answer is: "We'll never know now."

When I came back from Europe the first time, I had seen most of it through a 1970s version of a minds-eye; clearly not through the eyes of my father. The men and women who contributed to the WWII War effort were special, and had seen things and done things they would better left forgotten. The names and places like Monte Cassino, the Ardennes, Luzon, Normandy, Arnhem, Bastogne, provoked different memories for me then it did for them. The Battle of Bataan and Corregidor, Midway and Leyte Gulf --- all mean something more to them --- then it will ever will for me. They tackled and triumphed over two most powerful and ruthless military machines ever assembled.​

It is very difficult for me to guess what, as Tom Brokaw called them, the "Greatest Generation" would have thought about the today's plight of the Jewish People and the arrogance of the Arab-Palestinian, in an attempt to defy the establishment of a Jewish National Home, and engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the decision of the UN and the Allied Powers. I'm not sure how the would react to the complaints of the Arab Palestinian People given that many of the key leaders that fought to overrun Israel support the NAZIs. The policy of the day, was deNAZIfication.

When COL William Quinn, ACofS G-2 was compiling the CIC reports one finding in Dachau, he wrote these words:

View attachment 56920​

Given that the two leads of the Arab-Palestinian Resistance Militia Units (Holy War Army and Arab Liberation Army) were both NAZIs: (i) Hasan Salama, a special commando unit of the Waffen SS in Operation ATLAS, which was jointly operated by German Intelligence and Grand Mufti al-Husseini; (ii) Fawzi al-Qawuqi, was a Colonel in the Wehrmacht. Even the Grand Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husayni, an Arab nationalist, opponent to the establishment of a Jewish National Home, and future First President of the All Palestine Government, had direct ties to NAZI Germany, and the Führer.

Yes, it would be hard to say if they would choose the Jewish side --- or --- Arab-Palestinian side that was a former enemy element (Germany was still Occupied by Allied Forces).

Most Respectfully,
R

"today's plight of the Jewish People and the arrogance of the Arab-Palestinian, in an attempt to defy the establishment of a Jewish National Home"

That's the most biased nonsense I've ever seen.

It is true though, and anyone who is not brainwashed can see it as reality

Back to my original point, this "plight" of the Jewish people and anger at the "arrogant" Palestinians wouldn't exist if the creators of Israel had opted out instead of creating the country. If they had know the insane religious clusterfuck it would create, they never would have done it.

And where would that have left the Jews of the world then. How soon before another Nazi group started to plot to wipe them out. Just looking at this board the numbers of such people in America is alarming. The Jews had worldwide support for their national home until the birth of the UN when it was lost. The UN should have stamped out the Palestinian/arab nationalist movement in 1947 when they first started to attacks on the Jews hoping to wipe them out and claim all the land. If that had been done then the problems of today would not be there.

But it didn't have to have this outcome Pheo, The Jews were so Manic to get their own State that they behaved like ISIS are today........even today most Jews feel there could and should be a fairer way and end this schism for both peoples.steve..ps the Palestinians were never a problem to the Jews......quite the reverse.....Yet the Pro-Zionist Lobby try to say otherwise.ie the Palestinians were the easy target.

Yet I never hear you Guys speak out against the Jews real Enemies......The Germans,Croatians,Italians,Russians,Ukrainians,Catholics and all......Who willingly coerst Jews throughout Europe to the Death Camps and Burning Charnels,normally beating them up or murdering Jews.....these were the real Bastards...not the Palestinians at all.WHY DON'T YOU GUYs SPEAK OUT AGAINST THESE REAL BARBARIANS OF RECENT HISTORY,steve

You're a moron. The Jews fight for survival, not to spread their warped ideology ...

 

[Coyote]

So ... what borders should be used to define Israel?

 

[Jroc]

So ... what borders should be used to define Israel?

CAIR doesn't get to redefine Israel CAIR girl. Israel defines what it's borders are, not people like you

 

[montelatici]

As long as Israel is prepared to engage in perpetual conflict it can define its borders. If it wants peace, it will have to negotiate its borders.

 

[Jroc]

As long as Israel is prepared to engage in perpetual conflict it can define its borders. If it wants peace, it will have to negotiate its borders.

Negotiate? you don't negotiate your destruction

 

[montelatici]

Well then, perpetual conflict it is. But, how long do you think Israel can maintain complete control over a population of non-Jews that is today equal to the Jewish population and will overtake the Jewish population?

 

[Kondor3]

So ... what borders should be used to define Israel?

The white part defines Jewish Palestine... a.k.a. Israel...

The orange part defines Arab Palestine... a.k.a. Jordan...

The 1967 borders really don't come into it...

Next slide, please...

 

[Hollie]

Mod Edit - the topic is not Islamism, Jihad, or the dubious ancient history of Islam in the region. It's whether we should go back to the '67 borders. Please review the OP and don't derail the thread.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So ... what borders should be used to define Israel?

If Israel had any land it would automatically have borders. You can't have one without the other.

 

[montelatici]

So, a map drawn in 2005 found on a propaganda site shows the correct borders. Interesting.

 

[hadit]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This logic defies reality.

Why is Israel the only nation whose annexation of land won in a defensive war gets called "illegal"?

People that invade a territory somewhere else, especially on another continent, do not engage in a defensive war. It's like saying the Europeans that invaded the New World were engaged in a defensive war when the natives resisted European settlement.

The Jews didn't "invade" Israel. The world powers carved out a home land for them after WWII. They then seized land in the 6 day war, when they were attacked by, and in which they humiliated, the Arab nations seeking to push them into the sea. It was a defensive war, and they won, decisively.

There is a shift in this story. Before the '67 war the West Bank and Gaza were occupied Palestinian territories. Occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

Israel could not win Palestinian territory from Jordan or Egypt because it was not theirs to lose. That is why they are still called occupied Palestinian territories. The '67 borders only define the Palestinian territories that Israel occupied in 1967.

(COMMENT)

It is actually the other way around. The territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, no matter how the Arab-Palestinian want to define it, in control of by another country.

It was never the Arab-Palestinian's sovereign territory to either loose or rule in 1967.

The Arab-Palestinians gave the West Bank to Jordan through their right of self-determination.

Similarly, the All Palestine Government gave the Egyptian full reign in the Gaza Strip.

No, they call it Palestine because it is a remnant of the original territory (to be determined by the Allied Powers) to which the Mandate applied; and define as "Palestine" by the Order in Council. THEN, in 1988, the PLO declared independence; and they called it Palestine for the same reason.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah, yeah, do you have a better explanation as to why they are still occupied Palestinian territories?

1. There was never a "Palestine" nation in that area, so there was no nation to "occupy".
2. Israel is a tiny country, surrounded by large, implacable enemies who are trying to destroy her. Of course they're going to keep buffer zones they won in a defensive war.