"Signs and Wonders"....

[-Cp]

Okay - gonna move this topic over here as to not hijack the <a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310898#post310898" target=_blank">other thread</a>.

Who here thinks that "Signs and Wonders" / All the gifts of the Spirit / tongues / etc are stell relevant for today..

I for one, do not...

 

[Hobbit]

Okay - gonna move this topic over here as to not hijack the <a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310898#post310898" target=_blank">other thread</a>.

Who here thinks that "Signs and Wonders" / All the gifts of the Spirit / tongues / etc are stell relevant for today..

I for one, do not...

Why not? What's so special about the early church that they should recieve more gifts that us? What has changed between now and then?

I'm genuinely curious. I've heard dozens of people say things like, "Oh, that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore," but I have yet to hear anyone give me a statisfying answer as to why they think it doesn't happen anymore. It's always something lame, like "Well, it just doesn't," or "We don't need to see stuff like that to believe anymore." So tell me, why do you think we of the modern age aren't blessed with the same blessings as those in the early church?

 

[-Cp]

Why not? What's so special about the early church that they should recieve more gifts that us? What has changed between now and then?

I'm genuinely curious. I've heard dozens of people say things like, "Oh, that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore," but I have yet to hear anyone give me a statisfying answer as to why they think it doesn't happen anymore. It's always something lame, like "Well, it just doesn't," or "We don't need to see stuff like that to believe anymore." So tell me, why do you think we of the modern age aren't blessed with the same blessings as those in the early church?

Good question, why aren't we? Jesus told the disciples "Greater things than these will you do in my name after I'm gone" - I know many pentecostals take that to mean for today as well.

If that's the case, how many people do you know that have been raised from the dead? How many have grown a new limb, of have been healed of deafness and/or blindness?

Again, it's not for me to defend my position - the ownus here is on you to provide scripture context as to your position of all those things being relevant for today's church...

I don't doubt that "God is the same yesterday, today and forver", however, he obviously doesn't keep working in the same ways does he? How many plagues and pillars of fire do we read about in the New Testament compared to the Old etc?

 

[Eightball]

The greatest miracle is the change in one's nature after salvation, not all the optional equipment that the Charismatics banter about as necessary equipment.

Paul said that "love" trumps all the gifts........and if there are gifts and there's no love behind them then the person excercising those gifts is just like an empty, annoying, gonging bell.

I think many of the gifts that are shown in TV evangelistic shows, and in many Charismatic churches are counterfeit gifts.

Too many Christians "key in" on having a gifts, and totally miss the mark of what it is to be a "Christian".

I think that old "Fuzzy Nose" is duping a lot of the Christians into thinking that you have to "feel" God in order to confirm your faith, instead of believing with your God-given mind despite what your emotions are communicating.

Faith cometh by hearing(not feelings/emotions/ good-fuzzies), and hearing by the Word(scripture) of God.

This is how the Mormons dupe so many folks into following their cult. They emphasize the good old, "burning Bosom" experience as a confirmation that Mormonism is from God or truly valid. The "burning bosom" is just a physiological, delusional, demonic, work of old "Fuzzy Nose", lead many Christians and non-Christians away from the "truth" via the bible.

Lucifer hates faith that stands strong despite his onslaught of counter-measures through the believers mind and especially their emotions.

Salvation is not confirmed by feelings. Many new Christians fall away from the faith because they have been discipled after their conversion into expecting a myriad of signs and wonders(a constant emotional/mental "high") as the norm of the Christian life. After the initial conversion honeymoon, they start to wonder if they were converted at all as they don't seem to feel saved, and besides that, theres still problems of life to still contend with, and it seems like the answers still not easy.

Faith has been so "beat-up" by the evangelical church, and especially the Charismatic end of it.

The Christian life is not an endless "skyrocket" parade. It has to meet the reality-road of life. The power of the Christian life is what the Holy Spirit does in the believer through empowering the converted one to surmount everyday struggles with an attitude that baffles the unconverted world. Faith is going against one's feelings and surrendering to what's right, regardless of the consequences. Now that's faith in action!

The gifts were evidences in most cases in the early church to show the uncoverted world that God truly was with these new converts. Just as it is called "signs", it was a sign to a generation that God was truly with these people.

God wants the world to focus on His Son, not gifts.......and that's where much of this movement or emphasis is not authored by Him.

Fascination with gifts is not a sign of Spiritual maturity, but often indicates a more fleshly, or carnal mindset in a Christian. This is not said to bash, but to be of some help. I am not saying this without some knowledge and experience in my own Christian life. There was a time when my whole Christian journey seemed to hinge on whether I "felt" the presence of God/Jesus stirring in me. I had to learn a very hard but good lesson that God is faithful to me regardless of my state of mind or emotions at any moment in my life. I think that was the real beginning of my Christian growth towards some measure of maturity.

 

[Hobbit]

Good question, why aren't we? Jesus told the disciples "Greater things than these will you do in my name after I'm gone" - I know many pentecostals take that to mean for today as well.

If that's the case, how many people do you know that have been raised from the dead? I know of one who woke up from being dead (heart had stopped) after he was prayed over. It was about 30 years ago, so I don't have a link, but there were 3 witnesses to the event. How many have grown a new limb, of have been healed of deafness and/or blindness? 5, not including many people who have recovered from unrecoverable injuries or had a much better outcome from a medical procedure than was expected.

Again, it's not for me to defend my position - the ownus here is on you to provide scripture context as to your position of all those things being relevant for today's church...

You already provided it for me. Then there's the part where it's said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can order a mountain to cast itself into the sea. The only reason you don't see it happening is because you're not around those who believe it's relevant. Then, when somebody tells you about some sort of miraculous healing, such as a tumor disappearing, a cripple standing up and walking, or some other unexplainable recovery (which I've seen a few times), you dismiss it as some sort of scientific phenomenon. The truth is that it's far more common than you might think, it's just usually dismissed as some zealots calling a perfectly explainable phenomenon (which it's not) for a miracle.

I don't doubt that "God is the same yesterday, today and forver", however, he obviously doesn't keep working in the same ways does he? How many plagues and pillars of fire do we read about in the New Testament compared to the Old etc?

Check Revelation. It's full of that stuff. Also, the New Testament really only spans a few decades. Floods and plagues and stuff don't happen every day in the Old Testament. Also, what about Paul? A bright light from Heaven blinded him. There's also many other miracles, such as Philip catching the chariot on foot and the apostles healing cripples. Do you really think God would do so much for us and then simply abandon us to our own devices just because a few years have passed. God did miracles for thousands of years before Jesus was born and for at least several decades afterwards. Why would he simply stop?

 

[archangel]

Good question, why aren't we? Jesus told the disciples "Greater things than these will you do in my name after I'm gone" - I know many pentecostals take that to mean for today as well.

If that's the case, how many people do you know that have been raised from the dead? How many have grown a new limb, of have been healed of deafness and/or blindness?

Again, it's not for me to defend my position - the ownus here is on you to provide scripture context as to your position of all those things being relevant for today's church...

I don't doubt that "God is the same yesterday, today and forver", however, he obviously doesn't keep working in the same ways does he? How many plagues and pillars of fire do we read about in the New Testament compared to the Old etc?

maybe modern medicine...alot of the things you listed above have been the norm...also what about space flight on and on...maybe Jesus was talking about our increase in intelligence..ie:modern miracles!

 

[colehart]

When the apostles died, instantaneous miracles ceased. I don't believe God is directly involved in healing someone from what the medical profession would call an incurable disease. If he were, what criteria would he use to decide who would be saved and who would not? God is not a respector of persons, meaning he treats all the same. There are unexplained cures, but I'm not going to try explain them other than to say, it happens! If it makes you "feel" good to say it's a miracle, then do so by all means.

 

[dilloduck]

The greatest miracle is the change in one's nature after salvation, not all the optional equipment that the Charismatics banter about as necessary equipment.

Paul said that "love" trumps all the gifts........and if there are gifts and there's no love behind them then the person excercising those gifts is just like an empty, annoying, gonging bell.

I think many of the gifts that are shown in TV evangelistic shows, and in many Charismatic churches are counterfeit gifts.

Too many Christians "key in" on having a gifts, and totally miss the mark of what it is to be a "Christian".

I think that old "Fuzzy Nose" is duping a lot of the Christians into thinking that you have to "feel" God in order to confirm your faith, instead of believing with your God-given mind despite what your emotions are communicating.

Faith cometh by hearing(not feelings/emotions/ good-fuzzies), and hearing by the Word(scripture) of God.

This is how the Mormons dupe so many folks into following their cult. They emphasize the good old, "burning Bosom" experience as a confirmation that Mormonism is from God or truly valid. The "burning bosom" is just a physiological, delusional, demonic, work of old "Fuzzy Nose", lead many Christians and non-Christians away from the "truth" via the bible.

Lucifer hates faith that stands strong despite his onslaught of counter-measures through the believers mind and especially their emotions.

Salvation is not confirmed by feelings. Many new Christians fall away from the faith because they have been discipled after their conversion into expecting a myriad of signs and wonders(a constant emotional/mental "high") as the norm of the Christian life. After the initial conversion honeymoon, they start to wonder if they were converted at all as they don't seem to feel saved, and besides that, theres still problems of life to still contend with, and it seems like the answers still not easy.

Faith has been so "beat-up" by the evangelical church, and especially the Charismatic end of it.

The Christian life is not an endless "skyrocket" parade. It has to meet the reality-road of life. The power of the Christian life is what the Holy Spirit does in the believer through empowering the converted one to surmount everyday struggles with an attitude that baffles the unconverted world. Faith is going against one's feelings and surrendering to what's right, regardless of the consequences. Now that's faith in action!

The gifts were evidences in most cases in the early church to show the uncoverted world that God truly was with these new converts. Just as it is called "signs", it was a sign to a generation that God was truly with these people.

God wants the world to focus on His Son, not gifts.......and that's where much of this movement or emphasis is not authored by Him.

Fascination with gifts is not a sign of Spiritual maturity, but often indicates a more fleshly, or carnal mindset in a Christian. This is not said to bash, but to be of some help. I am not saying this without some knowledge and experience in my own Christian life. There was a time when my whole Christian journey seemed to hinge on whether I "felt" the presence of God/Jesus stirring in me. I had to learn a very hard but good lesson that God is faithful to me regardless of my state of mind or emotions at any moment in my life. I think that was the real beginning of my Christian growth towards some measure of maturity.

Very nice post. The increasing acceptance of material things as a "gift" from God or something that God would approve of coveting seems to be proof of the wayward state of some Christians. Perhaps we are very fortunate that we have NOT received the signs or omens that we deserve---but then again, maybe we have .

 

[-Cp]

The greatest miracle is the change in one's nature after salvation, not all the optional equipment that the Charismatics banter about as necessary equipment.

Paul said that "love" trumps all the gifts........and if there are gifts and there's no love behind them then the person excercising those gifts is just like an empty, annoying, gonging bell.

I think many of the gifts that are shown in TV evangelistic shows, and in many Charismatic churches are counterfeit gifts.

Too many Christians "key in" on having a gifts, and totally miss the mark of what it is to be a "Christian".

I think that old "Fuzzy Nose" is duping a lot of the Christians into thinking that you have to "feel" God in order to confirm your faith, instead of believing with your God-given mind despite what your emotions are communicating.

Faith cometh by hearing(not feelings/emotions/ good-fuzzies), and hearing by the Word(scripture) of God.

This is how the Mormons dupe so many folks into following their cult. They emphasize the good old, "burning Bosom" experience as a confirmation that Mormonism is from God or truly valid. The "burning bosom" is just a physiological, delusional, demonic, work of old "Fuzzy Nose", lead many Christians and non-Christians away from the "truth" via the bible.

Lucifer hates faith that stands strong despite his onslaught of counter-measures through the believers mind and especially their emotions.

Salvation is not confirmed by feelings. Many new Christians fall away from the faith because they have been discipled after their conversion into expecting a myriad of signs and wonders(a constant emotional/mental "high") as the norm of the Christian life. After the initial conversion honeymoon, they start to wonder if they were converted at all as they don't seem to feel saved, and besides that, theres still problems of life to still contend with, and it seems like the answers still not easy.

Faith has been so "beat-up" by the evangelical church, and especially the Charismatic end of it.

The Christian life is not an endless "skyrocket" parade. It has to meet the reality-road of life. The power of the Christian life is what the Holy Spirit does in the believer through empowering the converted one to surmount everyday struggles with an attitude that baffles the unconverted world. Faith is going against one's feelings and surrendering to what's right, regardless of the consequences. Now that's faith in action!

The gifts were evidences in most cases in the early church to show the uncoverted world that God truly was with these new converts. Just as it is called "signs", it was a sign to a generation that God was truly with these people.

God wants the world to focus on His Son, not gifts.......and that's where much of this movement or emphasis is not authored by Him.

Fascination with gifts is not a sign of Spiritual maturity, but often indicates a more fleshly, or carnal mindset in a Christian. This is not said to bash, but to be of some help. I am not saying this without some knowledge and experience in my own Christian life. There was a time when my whole Christian journey seemed to hinge on whether I "felt" the presence of God/Jesus stirring in me. I had to learn a very hard but good lesson that God is faithful to me regardless of my state of mind or emotions at any moment in my life. I think that was the real beginning of my Christian growth towards some measure of maturity.

Beautiful! I LOVE IT!

 

[-Cp]

I know of one who woke up from being dead (heart had stopped) after he was prayed over. It was about 30 years ago, so I don't have a link, but there were 3 witnesses to the event. How many have grown a new limb, of have been healed of deafness and/or blindness? 5.

I find it "odd" how many like you who claim such things ot be all undocumented cases.... Oooo wow.. his heart stopped -ever heard of CPR? Does CPR make it a miracle? I'm gonna go ahead and have to, once again, call BS on your claims of deaf/blind/limbs being healed...

You already provided it for me. Then there's the part where it's said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can order a mountain to cast itself into the sea.

Really? How many mountains have you ever seen cast into the Sea? Are you trying to suggest that nobody since Christ has had the "faith of a mustard seed"?

The only reason you don't see it happening is because you're not around those who believe it's relevant. Then, when somebody tells you about some sort of miraculous healing, such as a tumor disappearing, a cripple standing up and walking, or some other unexplainable recovery (which I've seen a few times), you dismiss it as some sort of scientific phenomenon.

Not I - I'm just looking for DOCUMENTED cases - I can guarantee if someone was geniunly raised from the dead, it'd be HUGE news among Christians... not just a hear-say story, but one that's factually documented etc..

God did miracles for thousands of years before Jesus was born and for at least several decades afterwards. Why would he simply stop?

Good question! Why does God always seem to change his ways of doing things? That's the million dollar question... not for us to know why - but just accept that he does...

 

[Powerman]

Why not? What's so special about the early church that they should recieve more gifts that us? What has changed between now and then?

I'm genuinely curious. I've heard dozens of people say things like, "Oh, that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore," but I have yet to hear anyone give me a statisfying answer as to why they think it doesn't happen anymore. It's always something lame, like "Well, it just doesn't," or "We don't need to see stuff like that to believe anymore." So tell me, why do you think we of the modern age aren't blessed with the same blessings as those in the early church?

To answer your last question here is a simple and probable answer. They never happened and someone made it up to strengthen the faith of people. Funny how now that there are cameras all over the place these miracles and wonders never happen.

 

[Hobbit]

All of you keep talking about miraculous healings like they never happen. The problem is not that they don't happen, but that nobody believes them when they do. I've seen no less than 15 people who were diagnosed by cancer by at least 3 different doctors after at least 3 seperate examinations only to go in for a follow up to find that the cancer is not there. When I try to tell people this as proof that God still does miracles, I'm told that during the initial tests, the equipment was faulty, or the results were misinterpreted. I'm told that the cancer was never really there and that it just took four tests to get it right. I have seen someone get up out of a wheelchair after 5 years. Did they just think they couldn't walk? If that's case, how come her atrophied legs allowed her to run and jump right away. My dad had some of the most horrible springtime allergies I've ever seen. During the worst allergy season I've ever seen, he, while bed-ridden at home, was cured during Sunday morning church and has never suffered allergies since. Funny part is that my mom *knew* he was cured before we got home, and told me as much in the car on the way. How do you explain that?

Now, before you get onto me for what Eightball's talking about, it *is* optional equipment, and we teach that a lot. Just like those in Acts who failed to exorcise the demon from a person, it is always taught that you first make sure your relationship with God is intact. Just as the scripture says, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Gifts are like tools for a job. As Christians, we have a job to do, and that is to "Go forth and make disciples of all nations." These gifts are tools for use in this job. If you work at a grocery store, the manager will tell you that the box-cutters, pallette jacks, and forklifts are not toys, but are only to be used for work. These tools are the same way, you use them to do the job, not for your own gratification. As such, we greatly discourage "feeling based" faith. As far as nobody casting a mountain into the sea, it's not because nobody's had the faith, but because casting a moutain into the sea has not served as a job function yet. If the time comes that a suicidal mountain would serve God's purposes, there will be someone there to command it in His name.

I find it "odd" how many like you who claim such things ot be all undocumented cases.... Oooo wow.. his heart stopped -ever heard of CPR? Does CPR make it a miracle? I'm gonna go ahead and have to, once again, call BS on your claims of deaf/blind/limbs being healed...

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Now, I didn't see the guy get raised with my own two eyes, and I admit it's kinda weak, but I've SEEN MYSELF people being healed of life-long ailments. I didn't make it up. I didn't hear it from somebody. I SAW it with my own two eyes. This is why you don't find documented cases is because as soon as the person comes out with documentation, those of you who refuse to believe it's possible call them liars and frauds, dismiss the evidence as fabricated, and go on with your belief that God has abandoned us to our own devices. I'm telling you what I saw firsthand. Now, there's only three options left. You can call me a liar, which proves to me that you're so grounded in the belief that God doesn't do miracles anymore that it's not worth discussing, in which case I will retire from this thread so I'm not tempted to flame for the insults. You could say I hallucinated the whole thing, which, for starters, is pretty weak and would also count as an insult. The only thing left is to believe me.

To answer your last question here is a simple and probable answer. They never happened and someone made it up to strengthen the faith of people. Funny how now that there are cameras all over the place these miracles and wonders never happen.

This here is just insulting to the religion. No matter how much you believe this, the argument won't hold water with any decent Christian, since you're basically saying that about half the Bible is lies and exaggerations, which no self-respecting Christian will ever believe. Now, we're trying to have a serious discussion of theology within the Christian faith. If you want to argue the existance of God or the correctness of the Christian faith, start another thread.

 

[-Cp]

Hobbit:

I never said that I don't think God still heals folks - shoot, he's healed me before...

What I"m talkin' about in this discussion are the miraculous stuff that so many pentecostals proclaim are still viable..

1. Raising folks from the dead
2. Growing a new limb
3. Blindness healed
4. Deafness healed

If pentecostals RELALY believed what they say are possible, then why aren't more of them down at the morgue's praying over dead people? Why don't they go to folks in wheel-chairs and pray over them (like Christopher Reeves) so they can walk again?

Sounds to me like you watch too much TBN or Benny Hinn...

 

[5stringJeff]

Okay - gonna move this topic over here as to not hijack the <a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310898#post310898" target=_blank">other thread</a>.

Who here thinks that "Signs and Wonders" / All the gifts of the Spirit / tongues / etc are stell relevant for today..

I for one, do not...

I think they are, but they are obviously manifested in different proportions. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." (Duane, you should be all over that last part.)

So our gifts are given as God sees fit. However, it is OK to seek greater spiritual gifts from God: "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts."

So if God does not see it fit for people to walk around performing miracles, then that's up to Him. But I don't think it's necessarily correct to say, "God just doesn't do that any more." Because He just might start it up again!

 

[-Cp]

I think they are, but they are obviously manifested in different proportions. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." (Duane, you should be all over that last part.)

So our gifts are given as God sees fit. However, it is OK to seek greater spiritual gifts from God: "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts."

So if God does not see it fit for people to walk around performing miracles, then that's up to Him. But I don't think it's necessarily correct to say, "God just doesn't do that any more." Because He just might start it up again!

I don't disagree that he could some-day start using them again.... but let me ask you - have you ever known anyone to have a true gift of Tongues? As I'm sure you know, the Greek for "Tongues" simple means "another language" - folks back then didn't have the Bible translated into every language like we do know-days.. . God allowed them to preach in other launguages "And each one heard in their own language and believed"....

I have yet to see any documented case where a Christian went into a foriegn land where he/she didn't know the language and God gave them "tongues" in order for them to be able to preach in that foreign tongue... etc..

 

[5stringJeff]

I don't disagree that he could some-day start using them again.... but let me ask you - have you ever known anyone to have a true gift of Tongues? As I'm sure you know, the Greek for "Tongues" simple means "another language" - folks back then didn't have the Bible translated into every language like we do know-days.. . God allowed them to preach in other launguages "And each one heard in their own language and believed"....

I have yet to see any documented case where a Christian went into a foriegn land where he/she didn't know the language and God gave them "tongues" in order for them to be able to preach in that foreign tongue... etc..

I don't know of any such cases either. However, God still reserves the right to let people do that. Maybe God decided to let us use our ability to learn language and translate the Bible instead of giving everyone the ability to speak in tongues - I don't know. It's probably something we'll all find out.

 

[archangel]

I think they are, but they are obviously manifested in different proportions. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." (Duane, you should be all over that last part.)

So our gifts are given as God sees fit. However, it is OK to seek greater spiritual gifts from God: "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts."

So if God does not see it fit for people to walk around performing miracles, then that's up to Him. But I don't think it's necessarily correct to say, "God just doesn't do that any more." Because He just might start it up again!

Makes alot of sense...ya never cease to amaze me Jeff...one moment ya tick me off the next...I find myself patting you on the back...go figure!

 

[-Cp]

I don't know of any such cases either. However, God still reserves the right to let people do that. Maybe God decided to let us use our ability to learn language and translate the Bible instead of giving everyone the ability to speak in tongues - I don't know. It's probably something we'll all find out.

Exactly my point in starting this thread.... Not trying to put God in a box - however, things have been VERY SILENT since the closing of the apostolitic era...

Additionally, if Pentecostals really believe they're "Empowered by God" with special gifts, why don't they start drinking poison and handling snakes? Does not the Bible proclaim that you can do that stuff and not be hurt?

 

[Hobbit]

Exactly my point in starting this thread.... Not trying to put God in a box - however, things have been VERY SILENT since the closing of the apostolitic era...

Additionally, if Pentecostals really believe they're "Empowered by God" with special gifts, why don't they start drinking poison and handling snakes? Does not the Bible proclaim that you can do that stuff and not be hurt?

It's because during the temptation of Jesus, Jesus told Satan that it's wrong to tempt God, thus the reason he didn't jump off the cliff, knowing God would save him. I have faith that if I get a little careless or taken by surprise that God can keep from being harmed by poison, but drinking the stuff is just asking for a smiting.

As far as some of the other stuff you've said since my last posting, we've had a slight misunderstanding and I'm willing to put it behind me. After all, stuff happens. The reason you don't see pentecostals praying over morgues is because we know that death is the inevitible outcome of life, at least on this planet. Even those raised from the dead in the Bible are dead now. That being the case, we feel that if God really doesn't want someone to stay dead, then somebody of faith will be lead to pray over it and then it will happen. So far, everyone I've seen die has stayed that way, and that's the way the world is, so unless I feel a need to pray for a resurrection, I simply pray that their families can deal with it. As far as blindness and deafness, those have happened. Most news sources simply dismiss it as fabrication, though. There are also exorcisms. If you don't believe that, call your local Catholic diocese and ask them for the name of their exorcist. He'll tell stories that'll make the hairs on the back of your neck breakdance. Most people will tell you that it's all documented, explainable, psychiatric disorders, but most exorcism cases are referred by a psychologist or psychiatrist and even the most dire of mental diseases can't explain everything they see.

Tongues is real, too. Usually, it's not a language normally spoken on Earth and I do believe that at least some people who do that are either faking or delusional, but that it is real. The gift of tongues that you referred to is typically unneeded in America, as those who don't speak English can find a Spanish church in their area. However, among African missionaries, it's actually not an uncommon occurance to find a person praying in a tribal dialect know only to a handful of people only to find out that one of that handful was in the audience. I've also seen cases of people in American speaking in languages they'd never studied before and there being someone in the audience who has that as their native language. They understand English, but hearing it in their native language convinces them. It's quite awesome to see this happen.

 

[-Cp]

Tongues is real, too. Usually, it's not a language normally spoken on Earth and I do believe that at least some people who do that are either faking or delusional, but that it is real. The gift of tongues that you referred to is typically unneeded in America, as those who don't speak English can find a Spanish church in their area. However, among African missionaries, it's actually not an uncommon occurance to find a person praying in a tribal dialect know only to a handful of people only to find out that one of that handful was in the audience. I've also seen cases of people in American speaking in languages they'd never studied before and there being someone in the audience who has that as their native language. They understand English, but hearing it in their native language convinces them. It's quite awesome to see this happen.

Really? Can you name any Christian sources as to evidence of these happenings?