Shrink the Rich; Not Government

[AVG-JOE]

No side-step. Who told you life was supposed to be fair?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...d-and-ask-again-three-times-start-a-poll.html

Why in the HELL would you think that would amaze me? I knew you wouldn't give a shit the first time you answered the question with a politicians flair for spin.

Kudos though.... you're the first and so far only one with stones enough to at least post a reply to it in this thread.

 

[georgephillip]

Im no socialist, but I see nothing wrong with tax legislation that addresses extreme wealth polarization. The 2% live lives of unbelievable luxury, raising their top tax rate a few percentage points is not going to crimp their lifestyle all that much. Implementing a death tax on the very wealthiest will hopefully help reduce the deficit (and not simply used by Dems for more spending) as well as alleviate concentration of wealth at the top.

The problem you need to see with that is such a solution assumes that uneven wealth distribution has nothing to do with individual choices and everything to do with a system that somehow arbitrarily hands out varying amounts of money to people. That is simply not reality. Again, you can not come up with a solution if you have not correctly identified the problem.

A system that allows the richest members of society to pay taxes at a significantly lower rate (15%-20%) compared to its middle class rate (30%-35%) is not-so-arbitrarily handing out vast amounts of money to people who don't really need it.

Then consider the possibility that US corporations pay an even lower rate of taxes that the richest individuals. In my opinion the government compounds these two problems when it writes tax policy that favors debt over equity investing.

btw, I thought your quote from Robert Kioysaki nailed it. It is all about whom you are indebted to. Right now 90% of the US population is indebted to the richest 10% of the population, AND Republicans AND Democrats know that and legislate accordingly.

 

[georgephillip]

Im no socialist, but I see nothing wrong with tax legislation that addresses extreme wealth polarization. The 2% live lives of unbelievable luxury, raising their top tax rate a few percentage points is not going to crimp their lifestyle all that much. Implementing a death tax on the very wealthiest will hopefully help reduce the deficit (and not simply used by Dems for more spending) as well as alleviate concentration of wealth at the top.

The problem you need to see with that is such a solution assumes that uneven wealth distribution has nothing to do with individual choices and everything to do with a system that somehow arbitrarily hands out varying amounts of money to people. That is simply not reality. Again, you can not come up with a solution if you have not correctly identified the problem.

I ask again.

3rd ******* time this thread alone.

Does ANYone think the current tax collection method and results in today's America is fair and/or efficient?

Not me.

I'm still a little unclear on specifics.

Does someone earning $250,000/year fall into the same tax bracket as someone earning $25,000,000/year?

US corporate taxes seem less fair than individual rates, but I expect that from a two party system where both parties depend on the richest individuals (and now corps, too) to finance their campaigns.

 

[georgephillip]

No it's not offensive. What difference is it to you anyway? All this class-warfare won't change that. Do you think that raising taxes is gonna change all of that?? If you do you're a fool.

I mean really. In every society there is always gonna be those who have and those who have not. The value of any society is whether you have large numbers of those who can live comfortably or not. In Mexico you basically have two classes. The rich and the poor. There is little in between. Here at least a majority of us can live quality lives and not have to worry about stealing to prevent starvation.

Ever wonder why folks in 3rd world countries have no compunction to breaking our immigration laws? It's because they were born into a society where you had to break the rules in order to survive. Desperation gives you no choice.

Most Americans have never experienced real hunger. We haven't been that way since the 50s but for some strange reason our universities are breeding a pervasive attitude that this country is evil just because there are so many of us who can afford to live well.

Why is this???

Well that's easy; It's because the kids coming out of these liberal institutions have never experienced real hardship yet they swallow the examples presented to them by the elitists in this country hook, line, and sinker.

I fail to see why they're so wrapped around the axle about the rich when many of them are rich themselves or have never been poor. Skipping meals is not starvation. Try going a week without eating like I have. That will open your eyes for sure.

It really tickles me when some millionaire in congress or in Hollywood starts bitching about the rich not paying enough taxes. They're just repeating a popular mantra never thinking of the consequences their silly rhetoric would have on their personal fortunes if it were equally applied to them. Trust me....it will never happen. They may peal off a few bucks to dissuade their guilt but it will never effect them as long as they can pay their lawyer to shelter their assets. On the other hand the person that's living on the edge will always be made to suffer. The person that makes under half a million but is in a state where the value of his or her assets does not exceed their debt. These are the folks that well be hurt the most. Not the extremely wealthy.

Did you find the $13trillion Wall Street bail-out offensive?

What do you think will happen next spring if WikiLeaks FLUSHES Bank of America and/or JP Morgan into the same sewer Enron disappeared into?

While I believe you're correct about most Americans having never experienced hunger, statistics show rising demand for food stamps and food handouts. The American middle class is being told to tighten their belts while the richest 10,000 (0.01%) of the US population continues to prosper at the expense of the middle.

Finally, the way tax brackets are currently drawn, the truly rich will continue to deflect most of the tax pain onto those making $250,000 to $500,000 per year.

It's hard to see how voting for a Republican OR a Democrat will change that.

If you vote for a Republican you may get screwed. If you vote for a Democrat it's a certainty.

Are Republicans any less likely than Democrats to bail out Bank of America or JP Morgan should either go the way of Bear Stearns or Lehman Brothers?

Both parties could be FLUSHED from government starting in November of 2012.

 

[georgephillip]

And do you know whose fault it is that people are moving their money offshore?

Yours. You and other idiots who support and enact legislation hostile to business and punishing the successful.

If you want more money, get off your ass and get to work. Don't insist the government steal if for you.

So it's my fault people are moving their money offshore?

I thought it had something to do with comparative wage scales in the US versus Mexico or China.

Give me an example of legislation hostile to business I've supported, and then explain why I pay taxes at a 30% rate while the richest 10,000 Americans pay at about 20%.

That 10% difference in tax rates is the best example I've seen of government stealing money from those who work and giving it to those who invest.

"Tax the rich! Tax the rich!

...hey! Where did the rich people go?"

You really expect them to stick around and gladly let you lazy bastards steal everything they've got?

Yes. You probably do.

I repeat: No one is holding you down but you. Get off your lazy ass and get to work. You don't deserve other people's stuff, no matter how much you whine about how unfair it all is. This isn't kindergarten, Skippy, this is real life. Grow up and get to work.

Buffy:

Will the rich desert us if we ask them nicely to pay taxes at the same rate as the middle class does?

Maybe we could simply jail the parasites and redistribute the spoils?

Has it ever occurred to you that vast private fortunes and the political shadow they cast could be the problem here?

 

[AVG-JOE]

The problem you need to see with that is such a solution assumes that uneven wealth distribution has nothing to do with individual choices and everything to do with a system that somehow arbitrarily hands out varying amounts of money to people. That is simply not reality. Again, you can not come up with a solution if you have not correctly identified the problem.

I ask again.

3rd ******* time this thread alone.

Does ANYone think the current tax collection method and results in today's America is fair and/or efficient?

Not me.

I'm still a little unclear on specifics.

Does someone earning $250,000/year fall into the same tax bracket as someone earning $25,000,000/year?

US corporate taxes seem less fair than individual rates, but I expect that from a two party system where both parties depend on the richest individuals (and now corps, too) to finance their campaigns.

Corporations are just legal documents that wealthy people hide behind to limit personal responsibility for their actions in the market place. The day a sitting board of directors of a pharmaceutical company goes collectively to jail because a child died using their product as instructed on the label is the day We, The People will no longer have to live in fear of a massive oil spill taking place because it seemed to be an expensive bother to change the batteries in the blow-out preventer. The real power remains firmly in the hands of men, even if those men are protected by corporate entities.

 

[Gunny]

Incase you ******* Becky ass miners have not noticed the wealthy have gained an pantload over the last decade.

Huh??

Don't even waste your time, dude. Not worth it. She's about as sane as Jeffrey Dahmer.

 

[daveman]

They may think it. The Founders gave us the option of a restart in thier writings regarding tyrants...even domestic ones.

Yup, that was in my oath of enlistment.

As it was in mine the same i think. Just because I am not active in the Military any longer does not abridge my responsibility to stay true to it.

(As it should for every citizen worth thier American Salt).

 

[daveman]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...d-and-ask-again-three-times-start-a-poll.html

Why in the HELL would you think that would amaze me? I knew you wouldn't give a shit the first time you answered the question with a politicians flair for spin.

Kudos though.... you're the first and so far only one with stones enough to at least post a reply to it in this thread.

Yippee. Now, are you going to answer my question?

Who told you life was supposed to be fair?

 

[daveman]

So it's my fault people are moving their money offshore?

I thought it had something to do with comparative wage scales in the US versus Mexico or China.

Give me an example of legislation hostile to business I've supported, and then explain why I pay taxes at a 30% rate while the richest 10,000 Americans pay at about 20%.

That 10% difference in tax rates is the best example I've seen of government stealing money from those who work and giving it to those who invest.

"Tax the rich! Tax the rich!

...hey! Where did the rich people go?"

You really expect them to stick around and gladly let you lazy bastards steal everything they've got?

Yes. You probably do.

I repeat: No one is holding you down but you. Get off your lazy ass and get to work. You don't deserve other people's stuff, no matter how much you whine about how unfair it all is. This isn't kindergarten, Skippy, this is real life. Grow up and get to work.

Buffy:

Will the rich desert us if we ask them nicely to pay taxes at the same rate as the middle class does?

Maybe we could simply jail the parasites and redistribute the spoils?

Has it ever occurred to you that vast private fortunes and the political shadow they cast could be the problem here?

You called it, T. The lazy little fascist wants to put them in jail for not giving his their stuff.

 

[editec]

The problem you need to see with that is such a solution assumes that uneven wealth distribution has nothing to do with individual choices and everything to do with a system that somehow arbitrarily hands out varying amounts of money to people. That is simply not reality. Again, you can not come up with a solution if you have not correctly identified the problem.

I ask again.

3rd ******* time this thread alone.

Does ANYone think the current tax collection method and results in today's America is fair and/or efficient?

Not me.

I'm still a little unclear on specifics.

Does someone earning $250,000/year fall into the same tax bracket as someone earning $25,000,000/year?

US corporate taxes seem less fair than individual rates, but I expect that from a two party system where both parties depend on the richest individuals (and now corps, too) to finance their campaigns.

Yes,

They also fall into the same tax bracket as people making $250,000,000 a year, and the same bracket as people making $2,500,000,000 a year.

We have a Progressive tax system?

I don't think so, kids.

Let me remind you that the salaries of the top ten CEOs of dereivative hedge funds AVERAGED $4,000,000,000 a year a few years back and I would not be surprised to learn they're making that kind of money or greater today, either..

Yeah that right, your DENTIST is in the same tax bracket as people whose incomes are in the BILLIONS of dollars a year.

I keep saying this because I think it is very important if we truly want understand the game.

By including those hard working amazingly productive affluent middle class (people making over $250 K) those people provide a political smokescreen for the SUPER RICH.

Many of you guys here imply that you're in that tax bracket, and many of you also blame WELFARE for your too high taxes?

Think about that more deeply and you'll quickly realize that you're paying too much taxes so that the SUPER RICH don't have to.

Welfare has next to nothing to do with your tax problems because WELFARE doesn't amount to a hill of beans to our government overall spending.

 

[SwordofDamocles]

[A system that allows the richest members of society to pay taxes at a significantly lower rate (15%-20%) compared to its middle class rate (30%-35%) is not-so-arbitrarily handing out vast amounts of money to people who don't really need it.

That is about the dumbest quote I've seen on this board "handing out vast amounts of money to people". No one hands them money, it is theirs. Any taxation is money took, and any less taxation is their money to keep, not the governments. Some of you nutjobs won't be happy until the rich are taxed at 100%. It is like the arguement of the left not wanting to allow the top 2% to keep the Bush tax cut. The dimbulb left wants to shriek like little girls about the 700 billion dollars it would cost over 10 years, while keeping stone quiet about the 3.2 trillion it will cost for the middle class tax cuts. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Why in the HELL would you think that would amaze me? I knew you wouldn't give a shit the first time you answered the question with a politicians flair for spin.

Kudos though.... you're the first and so far only one with stones enough to at least post a reply to it in this thread.

Yippee. Now, are you going to answer my question?

Who told you life was supposed to be fair?

When did I ever say that LIFE was supposed to be fair? Link that post and I'll kiss your ass on the 50 yard line of any game you buy the tickets for.

I said taxes should be collected fairly. If We, The People don't make every effort humanly possible to make all aspects of government fair to all economic classes, both rich and poor, our 'democracy' is a sham and attempting to export it, especially using the military as our delivery boys, is shameful.

Fair government means collecting taxes fairly and spending that money wisely and with all due consideration for where it came from. I give the last 20 years a failing grade on both counts. What's your opinion?

 

[georgephillip]

"Tax the rich! Tax the rich!

...hey! Where did the rich people go?"

You really expect them to stick around and gladly let you lazy bastards steal everything they've got?

Yes. You probably do.

I repeat: No one is holding you down but you. Get off your lazy ass and get to work. You don't deserve other people's stuff, no matter how much you whine about how unfair it all is. This isn't kindergarten, Skippy, this is real life. Grow up and get to work.

Buffy:

Will the rich desert us if we ask them nicely to pay taxes at the same rate as the middle class does?

Maybe we could simply jail the parasites and redistribute the spoils?

Has it ever occurred to you that vast private fortunes and the political shadow they cast could be the problem here?

You called it, T. The lazy little fascist wants to put them in jail for not giving his their stuff.

Only because he couldn't find the correct spelling for G-U-I-L-L-O-T-I-N-E.

Sissie.

 

[georgephillip]

[A system that allows the richest members of society to pay taxes at a significantly lower rate (15%-20%) compared to its middle class rate (30%-35%) is not-so-arbitrarily handing out vast amounts of money to people who don't really need it.

That is about the dumbest quote I've seen on this board "handing out vast amounts of money to people". No one hands them money, it is theirs. Any taxation is money took, and any less taxation is their money to keep, not the governments. Some of you nutjobs won't be happy until the rich are taxed at 100%. It is like the arguement of the left not wanting to allow the top 2% to keep the Bush tax cut. The dimbulb left wants to shriek like little girls about the 700 billion dollars it would cost over 10 years, while keeping stone quiet about the 3.2 trillion it will cost for the middle class tax cuts. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Nothing to see here except Government.

Assuming we agree government is a necessary evil today, how do you propose to socialize cost and privatize profit without writing tax codes?

Currently, 10,000 Americans earning an average of $50M/year pay taxes at a rate of about 20%. Their secretaries and drivers pay taxes at rates ranging from 30% to 32%.

Taxes not taken from the rich are taken from the rest of us, i.e., government hands the rich vast amounts of middle and working class dollars.

And it doesn't really matter in this case whether you vote Republican OR Democrat.

Phil's Stock World

 

[georgephillip]

I ask again.

3rd ******* time this thread alone.

Does ANYone think the current tax collection method and results in today's America is fair and/or efficient?

Not me.

I'm still a little unclear on specifics.

Does someone earning $250,000/year fall into the same tax bracket as someone earning $25,000,000/year?

US corporate taxes seem less fair than individual rates, but I expect that from a two party system where both parties depend on the richest individuals (and now corps, too) to finance their campaigns.

Yes,

They also fall into the same tax bracket as people making $250,000,000 a year, and the same bracket as people making $2,500,000,000 a year.

We have a Progressive tax system?

I don't think so, kids.

Let me remind you that the salaries of the top ten CEOs of dereivative hedge funds AVERAGED $4,000,000,000 a year a few years back and I would not be surprised to learn they're making that kind of money or greater today, either..

Yeah that right, your DENTIST is in the same tax bracket as people whose incomes are in the BILLIONS of dollars a year.

I keep saying this because I think it is very important if we truly want understand the game.

By including those hard working amazingly productive affluent middle class (people making over $250 K) those people provide a political smokescreen for the SUPER RICH.

Many of you guys here imply that you're in that tax bracket, and many of you also blame WELFARE for your too high taxes?

Think about that more deeply and you'll quickly realize that you're paying too much taxes so that the SUPER RICH don't have to.

Welfare has next to nothing to do with your tax problems because WELFARE doesn't amount to a hill of beans to our government overall spending.

I'm starting to think that you have, in fact, NOT "Forgot-it-All", at all.

Next, we'll discover you read Chomsky!

Thanks for another great summation.

I didn't realize how far up the food chain our non-progressive "progressive taxation system" extended.

I suppose I would be accused of class warfare if I brought up "Capital Gains" and how they're currently taxed at 15%.

I guess I'll take that chance and compound my "sin" by pointing out, yet again, all governments exist to socialize cost and privatize profit, AND the US government does it better than any previous version REGARDLESS of whether Republicans OR Democrats call the shots in DC.

 

[Contumacious]

Shrink the Rich; Not Government

Have you ever considered learning a marketable skill?

Have you ever considered that the Parasitism 101 that you leaned in the government owned and operated school is non productive.

.

 

[editec]

Not me.

I'm still a little unclear on specifics.

Does someone earning $250,000/year fall into the same tax bracket as someone earning $25,000,000/year?

US corporate taxes seem less fair than individual rates, but I expect that from a two party system where both parties depend on the richest individuals (and now corps, too) to finance their campaigns.

Yes,

They also fall into the same tax bracket as people making $250,000,000 a year, and the same bracket as people making $2,500,000,000 a year.

We have a Progressive tax system?

I don't think so, kids.

Let me remind you that the salaries of the top ten CEOs of dereivative hedge funds AVERAGED $4,000,000,000 a year a few years back and I would not be surprised to learn they're making that kind of money or greater today, either..

Yeah that right, your DENTIST is in the same tax bracket as people whose incomes are in the BILLIONS of dollars a year.

I keep saying this because I think it is very important if we truly want understand the game.

By including those hard working amazingly productive affluent middle class (people making over $250 K) those people provide a political smokescreen for the SUPER RICH.

Many of you guys here imply that you're in that tax bracket, and many of you also blame WELFARE for your too high taxes?

Think about that more deeply and you'll quickly realize that you're paying too much taxes so that the SUPER RICH don't have to.

Welfare has next to nothing to do with your tax problems because WELFARE doesn't amount to a hill of beans to our government overall spending.

I'm starting to think that you have, in fact, NOT "Forgot-it-All", at all.

Next, we'll discover you read Chomsky!

Thanks for another great summation.

I didn't realize how far up the food chain our non-progressive "progressive taxation system" extended.

I suppose I would be accused of class warfare if I brought up "Capital Gains" and how they're currently taxed at 15%.

I guess I'll take that chance and compound my "sin" by pointing out, yet again, all governments exist to socialize cost and privatize profit, AND the US government does it better than any previous version REGARDLESS of whether Republicans OR Democrats call the shots in DC.

Did you happen to catch my link to the tax outcomes for the RICHEST 400 taxpayers?

You'll find this illuminating...

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/07intop400.pdf

Most of the richest 400 don't pay anywhere near the top tax bracket that you folks are complainting about.

And let us remember, that the TOP 400 TAXPAYERS might NOT be the richest people in America.

If all of your investments are in tax FREE municipal bonds, then you can make a fortune and NOT be a taxpayer AT ALL.

So it is theorectically possible (and my guess is it's quite probable) that the people in America with the highest annual imcomes are not paying ONE RED CENT in taxes, and they aren't EVEN on our RADAR when we discuss the state of taxation in America

Why?

Because they don't even have to FILE income tax statements since none of their income is taxable..

Think those people dont exist?

Think again.

I personally know at least ONE person who clips coupons for a living, takes down an income in the low six figures and never even has to FILE income taxes.

And he's not expecially wealthy, in the overall scheme of things, either.

He's a guy who made a pile early in life and had been investing in bonds every since.

And since he's a damned smart guy (a former socialist BTW..he studied agricultural economics) he's pretty much learned how to avoid paying any taxes whatever.

 

[daveman]

Buffy:

Will the rich desert us if we ask them nicely to pay taxes at the same rate as the middle class does?

Maybe we could simply jail the parasites and redistribute the spoils?

Has it ever occurred to you that vast private fortunes and the political shadow they cast could be the problem here?

You called it, T. The lazy little fascist wants to put them in jail for not giving his their stuff.

Only because he couldn't find the correct spelling for G-U-I-L-L-O-T-I-N-E.

Sissie.

Oooh, tough talk.

If you weren't such a coward, someone might be accidentally intimidated.

 

[Lasher]

Nothing.

Currently, the wealthiest 10% pay about 16%, the middle class pays about 32% and the poor pay nothing or get paid to stay on the sidelines.

Patently unfair.

Who pays the other 52%?

Try to keep up, Newbie.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/146106-shrink-the-rich-not-government-16.html#post3096821

Since you are so astute and perspicacious, old sport, why don't you tell me who pays the other 52%, if you can, which I seriously doubt. Does it make you some sort of marvel to have been in this place longer than I? You sound like a real sickie.