Should we allow the alarmists to alarm us as to climate?

[Robert W]

Bob uses ice in his drinks and claims that disproves climate change.

If the order allows me to, I seek virtually no ice. It has nothing to do with climate.

 

[Dagosa]

Darwinian evolution, as contrasted from adaptation, or microevolution, is a fraud that has been perpetuated since Haeckel's fraudulent drawings were exposed in a court of law in the 1850's. Haeckel lied and scientists repeated his lies for over 100 years, most recently around 2000 in a biology book.

I have exposed the insuperable statistics of original protein synthesis on these pages, which conclusively refute Darwinism.

Briefly, titin is the largest protein in humans at 63, 318 amino acid residues in length.
The first titin molecule could only have been organized by overcoming the impossible odds of 1/20 to the 63,318 x 1/2 to the 63,318 x 1/2 to the 63,318.

That's for one protein. Humans have over 20,000 different proteins inside them.
Q.E.D.

You are the fraud...never seen so much BS in one post

 

[Dagosa]

If the order allows me to, I seek virtually no ice. It has nothing to do with climate.

What ever you say....it’s totally bogus. Bit you’re welcome to babble.

 

[JBG]

Complete bullshit

Thanks for your substantive response. You really educated me.

 

[otto105]

Thanks for your substantive response. You really educated me.

Attempting to educate you would be a fools mission. You’re entrenched in your bias.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Attempting to educate you would be a fools mission. You’re entrenched in your bias.

And you're just the fool to do it.

 

[JBG]

Attempting to educate you would be a fools mission. You’re entrenched in your bias.

Very erudite and intelligent.

 

[Dagosa]

Very erudite and intelligent.

You just repeated yourself.

 

[abu afak]

• Nov 15, 2023

• 
  
• Add bookmark
• #91

He apparently will ignore this from Marcott himself:


LINK

Warmist/alarmists tries hard to ignore it but it there in his interview that big red uptick was grafted onto his chart to promote a lie while the THESIS paper doesn't show it at all.

View attachment 858811

LINK

============

See how ignorant misinformed you are Abu and Crick........

It is so easy to make fools of you.

Really LIAR?

and here is what Marcott Said Most Recently for the Fifth or Sixth Time. I already told you a YEAR Ago but you probably thought I was gone so could LIE AGAIN DAILY.
So you are knowingly LYING hoping I'm not around.

Yes and I REFUTED you AS ALWAYS re Marcott as you were using OBSOLETE Citations.

How about Marcott 2021 ? (not 2013, NOT pre 2009 decades)

• NATURE PODCAST
  10 November 2021 Nature

Climate special: the past and future of the Earth's climate​

Reassessing 24,000 years of global temperatures, and on the ground at COP26.
[......]

Interviewee: Shaun Marcott
"..The past record provides perspective. Papers like this basically point out, just at the very basic level, what has happened before and where we are in that context and where we’re heading towards. In a Prior paper that we had, we said statistically we don’t really know if today is any warmer than what we call the warm period of the last 10,000 years.
This paper has said actually, We’ve Left what was Normal.
That’s an important perspective to have when you think about where We’re off to, considering these Temperatures that we’re Trajecting towards, as far we know, we Haven’t seen in 50 Million years or so, and the world was a lot Different then."".
[......]
Nature
Climate special: the past and future of the Earth's climate
- - - -


Sunset Tommy cannot even debate Climate!
He Dumps an article from somewhere (like WTFUWT) and says: ""You must refute this paper or you lose.""

WUWT Tommy himself is NOT EVEN CONVERSANT on the topic, and unlike me cannot lay out his position AND/OR why.
He put me on IGNORE after my SIX attempts to make him explain his position on warming and whether and if it was even warming at all.
He could Not!!
He prefers the motor mouth Crick who Unlike me doesn't Crush him with 100%/180° Rebuttal as I just did above AGAIN using his own source: Marcott.
(He Fallaciously/ posted COLD WEATHER DAYS in Skooker's anti-Science "Skeptics Winning" thread as if it was Not warming, but in fact cooling.)

So here Again: ANOTHER SUNSET for TOMMY.
He's posting again since I took a few months off. He thought I was gone.
But he Got so DESTROYED he had to stop.

`

 

[justoffal]

I am a member of the Judith Curry website so can spread this to the forum.
This discussion may please both the Alarmists and also the so called deniers.
It comes close to straddling the fence. This is very simple reading and should enlighten all of us.

Climate Change: A Curious Crisis

by Iain Aitken As explained in my new eBook, Climate Change: A Curious Crisis, the climate change ‘debate’ has long-since become a Manichaean, deeply polarized, ‘you are either with us or against u…

judithcurry.com

Climate Change: A Curious Crisis​

Posted on October 31, 2023 by curryja | 78 Comments
by Iain Aitken
As explained in my new eBook, Climate Change: A Curious Crisis, the climate change ‘debate’ has long-since become a Manichaean, deeply polarized, ‘you are either with us or against us’ war of words in which both sides accuse the other of being closed-minded and refusing to accept the ‘facts’.

Instead of a respectful exchange of views and the seeking of mutual understanding and common ground we tend to find sarcasm and ridicule and ad hominem attacks, as mutually intolerant, entrenched positions have arisen based on different interpretations of the science and evidence and different perceptions of risk. What should have been a mutually cooperative, disinterested, value-free search for the truth (basically, ‘science’) has morphed into a combative, biased, value-laden promotion of positions and ‘point scoring’ over opponents (basically, ‘politics’). Lest they yield any dialectical ground to their opponents, ‘doomsters’ are deeply reluctant to admit (perhaps even to themselves) that climate change might actually be predominantly natural and benign – and ‘deniers’ are deeply reluctant to admit (perhaps even to themselves) that climate change might actually be predominantly man-made and dangerous.
So what is the doomsters’ story? One of the most prominent and vocal doomsters is António Guterres, the UN Secretary General, who, in August 2021, described the IPCC’s Sixth Assessment Report as ‘a code red for humanity. The alarm bells are deafening, and the evidence is irrefutable: greenhouse‑gas emissions from fossil-fuel burning and deforestation are choking our planet and putting billions of people at immediate risk’. And in response to the news that July 2023 was likely to be the warmest July since records began he stated, ‘The era of global warming has ended; the era of global boiling has arrived.’ So what is all this ‘irrefutable evidence’ of the climate crisis that has so convinced Guterres and his fellow doomsters? Let’s examine a few representative examples:
(1) We know, based on the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory, that increasing carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere (e.g. by burning fossil fuels) will cause global warming to occur.
(2) We know, based on ice core data (and more recently direct atmospheric measurements), that in post-industrialization times the carbon dioxide level in our atmosphere has already risen by about 50% to a level that is unprecedented in more than 14 million years – and the rise rate is accelerating.
(3) We know, based on the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory, that the post-industrialization global warming cannot be explained by natural phenomena.
(4) We know, based on all the leading temperature datasets, that in post-industrialization times about 1.2ºC of global warming has already occurred, a level of warming that is unprecedented in at least the last 2,000 years (and probably the last 125,000 years) – and the rise rate is accelerating.
(5) We know, according to the World Meteorological Organisation, that the last 8 years have been the hottest years since records began and each decade since the 1980s has been hotter than the previous one.
(6) We know, based on global tide gauge and satellite altimetry data, that in post-industrialization times the global mean sea level has already risen by about 9 inches as a result of global warming – and the rise rate is accelerating.
(7) We know, based on satellite observations, that Arctic sea ice has already declined by 50% and is declining at a rate of about 12% per decade as a result of global warming – and the decline rate is accelerating.
(8) We know, based on observations and attribution studies, that extreme weather around the world has already become more frequent and intense and, based on the world’s largest study of climate-related mortality, that that is already causing almost 10% (5 million) of global deaths each year.
(9) We know, based on the Paris Climate Accord, that warming must be limited to 1.5ºC to avoid the most dangerous climate change impacts – and that based on the current warming trends that critical threshold may be crossed by 2030.
(10) We know that by the end of this century there could be up to 6ºC of warming (i.e. exceeding the 1.5ºC critical threshold by 4.5ºC) potentially resulting in catastrophic climate change.
The adverse climate change impacts noted above are just representative – many more could have been added, such as ocean acidification, coral reef loss, biodiversity loss and species extinctions – and that’s even before the consideration of potential ‘tipping points’ into irreversible climate change impacts. The climate crisis narrative (i.e. the cause and effect storyline) based on such evidence is simple and certain and compelling: our escalating burning of fossil fuels has caused a huge and unprecedented and accelerating rise in carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere which have in turn caused a huge and unprecedented and accelerating rise in global surface temperatures which has in turn already caused huge and unprecedented and accelerating climate change impacts on the planet and mankind – and very soon it’s going to get catastrophically worse, unless we stop climate change by stopping burning fossil fuels. In this narrative climate change is a new and terrifying man-made phenomenon, an existential threat that has arisen as an insidious ‘by product’ of rampant industrialization and capitalism and that it can, and must, be stopped by urgent global decarbonization.
So how many of the above ten statements are actually true? I would argue that all of them are true – at least exactly as worded – and assuming we accept as beyond reasonable dispute the ‘scientific consensus on climate change’, Anthropogenic Global Warming theory, climate models, analyses and conclusions of the IPCC, the ‘internationally accepted authority on climate change’. Trusting the IPCC and believing such evidence and the frightening story it apparently tells is entirely rational and reasonable; in fact, why would any rational, reasonable person doubt it? On the face of it this evidence alone makes an irrefutable case in support of the existence of a climate crisis and it’s surely not at all hard to understand why so many people accept it – and think that those who do not accept it (the so-called ‘climate deniers’) are deluded, badly-informed, badly-intentioned, scientifically-illiterate, irresponsible fools (or are perhaps covertly in the pay of Big Oil).
But what if we don’t just accept as ‘beyond reasonable dispute’ the IPCC’s ‘scientific consensus on climate change’, its Anthropogenic Global Warming theory, climate models, analyses and conclusions, but instead consider criticisms of them by ‘denier’ scientists? In that case we find that the ‘simple and certain’ climate crisis narrative unravels and becomes decidedly complex and uncertain. I deconstruct the ten statements above and set out some of the key complexities and uncertainties in my eBook, in which I conclude that we simply don’t know (with a confidence level sufficient to inform climate policy)

• whether carbon dioxide is the main (let alone sole) controller of the Earth’s climate system
• whether rising carbon dioxide levels are on balance good or bad for the planet and mankind
• whether the post-industrialization global warming has been abnormal (even over the last 2,000 years)
• how much of the post-industrialization global warming has been human-caused
• whether global warming is currently accelerating
• whether our warming climate system is on balance good or bad for the planet and mankind
• how much of the post-industrialization sea level rise has been human-caused
• whether the sea level rise is currently accelerating
• whether global decarbonization would materially reduce future sea level rises – and whether global decarbonization is anyway the most cost-effective policy for addressing future sea level rise
• whether the recent Arctic sea ice loss has been abnormal
• how much of the recent Arctic sea ice loss has been human-caused
• whether the Arctic sea ice loss is currently accelerating
• whether recent extreme weather events have been abnormal
• whether recent extreme weather events have been human-caused
• whether extreme weather events will become significantly more frequent and intense as a result of global warming
• whether exceeding 1.5ºC of warming would be ‘dangerous’
• whether achieving net zero by 2050 (in order to limit warming to 1.5ºC) is technically feasible (never mind geopolitically realistic)
• whether achieving net zero by 2050 would materially improve the climate in this century
• how much further global warming there will be this century and whether it might lead to ‘catastrophic’ climate change.

All of this can be summarized in one word: doubt. Doubts about the reliability of the science, doubts about the reliability of the climate models, doubts about the scientific integrity and policy-neutrality of the IPCC, doubts about the scale of future warming, doubts about the scale of the climate change risks (i.e. doubts about the scale of the possible adverse impacts and the probability of their occurring), doubts about the wisdom of the 1.5ºC warming ‘threshold’ – and doubts about the wisdom, not of decarbonization, but of precipitate and precipitous decarbonization (as epitomized by ‘net zero by 2050’ policies) that may do more socioeconomic harm than good largely as a result of the vast transitional costs and societal impacts of such fast and radical decarbonization and the current lack of affordable and reliable carbon-neutral alternatives to fossil fuels. Basically, the ‘irrefutable evidence’ that there is a climate crisis is not, perhaps, so irrefutable. So when António Guterres asks, ‘Can anybody still deny we are facing a dramatic emergency?’, the answer is, yes, many people can – and for very good reasons.
The fundamental problem with the climate crisis narrative is that it is simplistic and gives us only one side of the story. It largely expunges all the scientific complexities, unknowns and uncertainties, all the benefits of global warming and higher carbon dioxide levels, all the serious difficulties, costs, impacts and risks of rapidly eliminating fossil fuels – as well as expunging the option of simply adapting to living in a warmer world as an alternative (to net zero) policy response. It is as though man-made climate change had been put on trial in the court of public opinion on a charge of crimes against the planet and humanity (with a presumption of guilt) – but with only the prosecution case presented to the jury. It has apparently been found guilty, not on the basis of certainty, not on the basis of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’, not even on the basis of ‘on the balance of probabilities’ but simply on the basis of the possibility that it could be guilty, if not now, then in the future.
The ‘deniers’ (more accurately described as ‘doubters’) think that the uncertainties in the science are very high, that the possible worst case climate change outcomes are extremely unlikely to occur and that the socioeconomic risks of trying to eradicate the possibility of such outcomes are unacceptably high. The ‘doomsters’ (more accurately described as ‘believers’) think that the uncertainties in the science are very low and that however unlikely the worst case outcomes might be they are nevertheless possible and are so very bad that the very high socioeconomic risks of trying to eradicate the possibility of such outcomes are almost irrelevant. Both positions are rational and reasonable and worthy of intelligent debate – there is no ‘correct’ position. There does, however, appear to be a politically correct position and that, of course, is the position of the ‘doomsters’. To put it another way, the statements, ‘Climate change is probably not a very serious problem but net zero by 2050 probably is’ and ‘Climate change is possibly a very serious problem and net zero by 2050 possibly isn’t’ are not incompatible. Furthermore both sides agree that human activity, in particular our burning of fossil fuels, is contributing to a warming, changing climate – the debate is about how much we are contributing and how dangerous that warming actually is. On which basis there appears to be more uniting the two sides than dividing them.
Whether the IPCC’s theory and climate models are reliable (at least reliable enough to be fit to inform climate policy) is just a matter of opinion. Whether carbon dioxide is the ‘control knob’ of global warming is just a matter of opinion. How emissions will evolve this century is just a matter of opinion. Whether natural climate variability can partially (or even largely) explain the post-industrialization global warming is just a matter of opinion. Whether climate sensitivity is relatively low or high is just a matter of opinion. How much global warming there will be this century is just a matter of opinion. How much global warming is ‘dangerous’ is just a matter of opinion. Whether renewables technology will evolve quickly to deliver affordable and reliable carbon-neutral alternatives to fossil fuels is just a matter of opinion. Whether climate policy should be predicated on plausible/likely outcomes or worst case possible outcomes is just a matter of opinion. There is no ‘right’ answer to the climate change problem.
In summary, believing that we are experiencing a climate crisis and so we must eradicate fossil fuels as fast as possible is rational and reasonable – as is doubting that we are experiencing a climate crisis and so we must be very circumspect about how deeply and how quickly we eradicate fossil fuels (because the radical decarbonization ‘cure’ may be worse than the climate change ‘disease’). That simple claim may horrify ‘deniers’ and ‘doomsters’ alike, who both tend to a belief that they have the monopoly on rationality and reasonableness – which is why accepting this would be an excellent first step to reducing the current polarization of attitudes to the issue. To approach the truth about climate change you really do need to hear both sides of the story – and they are both good stories. At the very least, given all these doubts, if a climate crisis really exists then it is a very curious one.

In the final analysis the earth is certain to die a heat death one way or another.

 

[Robert W]

• Nov 15, 2023
• 
  
• Add bookmark
• #91

Really LIAR?

and here is what Marcott Said Most Recently for the Fifth or Sixth Time. I already told you a YEAR Ago but you probably thought I was gone so could LIE AGAIN DAILY.
So you are knowingly LYING hoping I'm not around.

Yes and I REFUTED you AS ALWAYS re Marcott as you were using OBSOLETE Citations.

How about Marcott 2021 ? (not 2013, NOT pre 2009 decades)

• NATURE PODCAST
  10 November 2021 Nature

Climate special: the past and future of the Earth's climate​

Reassessing 24,000 years of global temperatures, and on the ground at COP26.
[......]

Interviewee: Shaun Marcott
"..The past record provides perspective. Papers like this basically point out, just at the very basic level, what has happened before and where we are in that context and where we’re heading towards. In a Prior paper that we had, we said statistically we don’t really know if today is any warmer than what we call the warm period of the last 10,000 years.
This paper has said actually, We’ve Left what was Normal.
That’s an important perspective to have when you think about where We’re off to, considering these Temperatures that we’re Trajecting towards, as far we know, we Haven’t seen in 50 Million years or so, and the world was a lot Different then."".
[......]
Nature
Climate special: the past and future of the Earth's climate
- - - -


Sunset Tommy cannot even debate Climate!
He Dumps an article from somewhere (like WTFUWT) and says: ""You must refute this paper or you lose.""

WUWT Tommy himself is NOT EVEN CONVERSANT on the topic, and unlike me cannot lay out his position AND/OR why.
He put me on IGNORE after my SIX attempts to make him explain his position on warming and whether and if it was even warming at all.
He could Not!!
He prefers the motor mouth Crick who Unlike me doesn't Crush him with 100%/180° Rebuttal as I just did above AGAIN using his own source: Marcott.
(He Fallaciously/ posted COLD WEATHER DAYS in Skooker's anti-Science "Skeptics Winning" thread as if it was Not warming, but in fact cooling.)

So here Again: ANOTHER SUNSET for TOMMY.
He's posting again since I took a few months off. He thought I was gone.
But he Got so DESTROYED he had to stop.

`

Sunset Tommy has been proven to be rational, well informed and after you read what you said, try to imagine you in a college course talking like that to your teachers.

 

[Leo123]

Sunset Tommy has been proven to be rational, well informed and after you read what you said, try to imagine you in a college course talking like that to your teachers.

What's funny is they think they know what 'normal' global climate is.

 

[Robert W]

What's funny is they think they know what 'normal' global climate is.

I like to toss Clouds into the discussion because they have a dramatic impact and the earth at times is covered with them. But I never hear others going into those.

 

[Robert W]

In the final analysis the earth is certain to die a heat death one way or another.

That is the common best guess.

 

[Leo123]

That is the common best guess.

We are already part of the Sun actually, it's just that we are far enough away not to get burnt up.

 

[skye]

Agree with every word!



"We should never forget what they did with Covid because they’re doing the exact thing with so-called climate change. Scientists have their research defunded and careers destroyed if they dare speak opposite of the climate alarmism. It’s a political con, created to enhance government power, blackmail corporations, and generate new revenue. Big Tech has banned, delisted, and buried alternative voices. I’m not a scientist, but if you ban any alternative voices, I will NEVER NEVER NEVER believe the official talking points. Neither should you."

 

[Robert W]

We are already part of the Sun actually, it's just that we are far enough away not to get burnt up.

I see your point.

 

[Sunsettommy]

I know why warmist/alarmists have nothing but a lie to promote because the baseline data doesn't support any of their climate delusions as the actual weather trends are not getting worse at all, here a nice number of charts showing there is nothing unusual going on:

The IPCC doesn’t think there’s an emergency. To start with, deaths from climate-related phenomena are at an all-time low. If you think deaths from climate-related catastrophes are an emergency, please point in the graph below to the start of the “emergency”.

Storminess has not gone up, and there’s been no increase in hurricane strength or frequency … no “emergency” there.

First, the strength.

And here is the global hurricane frequency, both for all hurricanes and for the strongest hurricanes.

And here are the numbers of Pacific typhoons (hurricanes) from the Japanese Meteorological Agency.

And here are a century and a half of records of the number of landfalling hurricanes in Florida.

Finally, here are the declining numbers of both strong and average cyclones (Southern Hemisphere hurricanes) in Australian waters, from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology (BOM).

Let’s move on to snow. Remember all the hysteria about how “our children just won’t know what snow is”? Turns out the rumors of the death of snow are greatly exaggerated. Here’s the 2023-2024 snow record to date … it’s within one standard deviation of the mean, not unusual in the slightest.

And here is the Rutgers Snow Labatory’s snow extent data from 1972 to April 2023 … basically, no change.

Strong tornadoes in the US are steadily decreasing over the last 72 years.

Next, here is the radical change in downwelling radiation at the surface from the increase in CO2 that is supposed to be driving the “CLIMATE EMERGENCY!!!” What I’ve shown is the change that in theory would have occurred from the changes in CO2 from 1750 to the present, and the change that in theory will occur in the future when CO2 increases from its present value to twice the 1750 value. This is using the generally accepted (although not rigorously derived) claim that the downwelling radiation change from a doubling of CO2 is 3.7 watts per square metre (W/m2). The purpose is to show how small these CO2-caused changes are compared to total downwelling radiation.

The changes in downwelling radiation from the increase in CO2 are trivially small, lost in the noise …


LINK

=====================

There is ZERO evidence of a developing climate crisis it is all being made up as part of the propaganda narrative to produce compliance for their end game.

FACT: There is NO Positive Feedback Loop

FACT: There is NO lower Tropospheric Hot Spot.

FACT: Climate change is a governmental funded scam as most of what supports their dishonest pseudoscience crap are coming from government employees.

 

[Foxfyre]

I am merely a person who studied weather to be a pilot and trust me, this is far more than the alarmists ever studied. Did they also study weather? Well no, they have not studied weather. This is the basis of all climate.

Have they studied climate? If they have, why haven't any of them mentioned the Earth is a huge planet. So huge it is about 75 percent covered with oceans. If one would sail around earth, it could take months. So let's not treat Earth as tiny as Mars or the Moon for instance.
Here is a true expert I often cite. She makes a living on this topic. She advises nations and large firms.
Watch what she says on the climates of Earth that number probably in the thousands of climates. Climate is not a one spot on Earth topic. It covers areas that when it is super hot in one area of a continent, it might be freezing cold in another part.

Don't be duped by those who talk of institutions. Don't be duped by those posters pretending that me and others are not telling the truth, that only they know the truth, they are lying. They never admit Earth is a wonderful planet with probably thousands of climates in all.

Hurricanes according to some pretty knowledgeable experts have occurred on Earth at least as far back as we have historical records. They probably don't happen during ice ages but I don't know that for a fact. And there is zero evidence that hurricanes and tornadoes and other violent weather is any more severe/stronger/prevalent than it has ever been. There can be wide variances over centuries or groups of centuries as the records show.

The difference is that there are 8+ billion people on Earth now. There were roughly 1 billion people on Earth at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. There were only roughly 3 billion people on Earth when the first weather satellite went up in 1959. So the satellites see a lot more bad weather from space than we could before. And there are many billions more people on Earth to be the path of those storms and a corresponding much larger number of structures to be damaged.

Further all storms begin because there is some kind of imbalance and end when that imbalance has been repaired. Hurricanes form when there is a huge imbalance and they serve an important purpose stirring up what needs to be stirred and especially creating ocean currents that actually help cool the Earth. We should not be stopping hurricanes but learn to adapt our structures and lifestyles so that they are less damaging to us just as we are learning to do in earthquake zones.

There is no scientist or group of scientists alive with the knowhow or expertise to regulate the Earth's climate without probably doing more harm than good, and certainly no government policy is likely to do so or know how to do it in a constructive manner.

 

[Libby von H]

Recognizing and acknowledging reality is not being a "raving lunatic".

Depends on the reallity you recognize and acknowledge, completely