Should The Rich Be Required To Pay Higher Taxes In the US?

[Dad2three]

Keep dreaming. A REGRESSIVE tax isn't needed, but weird how the GOP stops ANYTHING that might require their overlords to pay more equitable with their wealth!

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

What's it to you? Why do you feel entitled to something you or your family didn't earn?

NO ONE EARNED A BILLION DOLLARS. Not one Walton family member nor A Koch earned their wealth, but by the lucky sperm club!!!

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

What's it to you? Why do you feel entitled to something you or your family didn't earn?

NO ONE EARNED A BILLION DOLLARS. Not one Walton family member nor A Koch earned their wealth, but by the lucky sperm club!!!

Somebody in their family sure did.... they didn't pick it off a vine you little nitwit. How old are you?

Sam Walton built an empire... and now his kids own it. So ******* what? Grow up.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I love these little participation trophy whineybabies who haven't the ability or the motivations to do shit and then sit around and ***** about successful people.

Useless little douchebags.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

What's it to you? Why do you feel entitled to something you or your family didn't earn?

NO ONE EARNED A BILLION DOLLARS. Not one Walton family member nor A Koch earned their wealth, but by the lucky sperm club!!!

so, your dads sperm was faulty beyond the obvious that you show here?
Not at all lucky for you.

 

[Dad2three]

Keep dreaming. A REGRESSIVE tax isn't needed, but weird how the GOP stops ANYTHING that might require their overlords to pay more equitable with their wealth!

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

Again, so what? We're asking you what justification you have for taking somebody's legally obtained property?

Envy doesn't count...

 

[Dad2three]

So NO, you don't understand how insurance works. Thanks anyways

Let's see, pay 12.4% of my lifetime earnings, die a week before I start collecting benefits and my family gets
basically zero.

Wow, great insurance! Sounds like a program only an idiot or a liberal (but then I repeat myself) would create.

Yet before it, most seniors lived in POVERTY in the US, today SS keeps almost half of seniors out of poverty. I know, that ponzi scheme called the stock market works better right? lol, PLEASE give me the SUCCESSFUL privatization of SS ANYWHERE?

There are millions of them. They are called IRA's.

Yep, TOTALLY differ objective of the Social Security INSURANCE Program

Which is broke.... personal IRA's are not. SSI is a Ponzi scheme.

Broke? lol

PAY AS YOU GO SYSTEM, THAT CONSERVATIVES STARTING WITH REAGAN, RAIDED THE TRUST FUNDS TO HIDE THE COSTS OF TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!!

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

What's it to you? Why do you feel entitled to something you or your family didn't earn?

NO ONE EARNED A BILLION DOLLARS. Not one Walton family member nor A Koch earned their wealth, but by the lucky sperm club!!!

so, your dads sperm was faulty beyond the obvious that you show here?
Not at all lucky for you.

Yeah no shit... he's probably barely qualified to press a button that lowers the french fry basket at McDonalds.

 

[Dad2three]

So NO, you don't understand how insurance works. Thanks anyways

Let's see, pay 12.4% of my lifetime earnings, die a week before I start collecting benefits and my family gets
basically zero.

Wow, great insurance! Sounds like a program only an idiot or a liberal (but then I repeat myself) would create.

Yet before it, most seniors lived in POVERTY in the US, today SS keeps almost half of seniors out of poverty. I know, that ponzi scheme called the stock market works better right? lol, PLEASE give me the SUCCESSFUL privatization of SS ANYWHERE?

There are millions of them. They are called IRA's.

Yep, TOTALLY differ objective of the Social Security INSURANCE Program

Nope, same objective, it's just that IRA's teach you the right way to handle money and the rewards of doing so.

Until the market crashes, like under the conservatives 1920's crash that lost 90%+ of the market!

 

[Maryland Patriot]

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

so its ok as long as the majority are stealing from the minority?
I guess if I walk up to you with lets say, two other people and we decide that you should give us your money, that's ok? or would it have to be four other people.

as far as working hard, Im starting to think you never have, Otherwise you would understand what it means to have your income stolen.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Let's see, pay 12.4% of my lifetime earnings, die a week before I start collecting benefits and my family gets
basically zero.

Wow, great insurance! Sounds like a program only an idiot or a liberal (but then I repeat myself) would create.

Yet before it, most seniors lived in POVERTY in the US, today SS keeps almost half of seniors out of poverty. I know, that ponzi scheme called the stock market works better right? lol, PLEASE give me the SUCCESSFUL privatization of SS ANYWHERE?

There are millions of them. They are called IRA's.

Yep, TOTALLY differ objective of the Social Security INSURANCE Program

Which is broke.... personal IRA's are not. SSI is a Ponzi scheme.

Broke? lol

PAY AS YOU GO SYSTEM, THAT CONSERVATIVES STARTING WITH REAGAN, RAIDED THE TRUST FUNDS TO HIDE THE COSTS OF TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!!

Oh, right.. its Reagan's fault.

You're such an idiot.

 

[Dad2three]

The Galveston Plan bears little resemblance to the President’s plan. The Galveston plan does not have voluntary private accounts. Instead, the county invests pension funds in the market; individual workers do not have accounts or any control over investment decisions. In addition, participation in the Galveston plan is mandatory. The Galveston Plan also features higher payroll tax contributions: 13.9 percent of payroll, as compared to 12.4 percent under the traditional Social Security system

Retirement benefits are generally lower under the Galveston Plan. Under the Galveston Plan, initial retirement benefits are lower for many workers than under Social Security. Furthermore, unlike Social Security, the Galveston plan does not adjust benefits from year to year to reflect increases in the cost of living. As a result, according to a Social Security Administration study, “After 20 years, all of Galveston’s benefits are lower relative to Social Security’s.”


Galveston could not provide a model for the country as a whole.



The 5,000 municipal employees covered by the plans run by Galveston and the two other Texas counties opting out of Social Security do not make any contributions to support current Social Security beneficiaries. If the United States as a whole adopted a Galveston-like plan, there would be no one left to pay the $500 billion annual cost of benefits for the nation’s 45 million current Social Security beneficiaries .

In other words, municipal employees from these three Texas counties are “free riders” who are escaping their share of the national obligation to finance Social Security for current retirees. The United States as a whole cannot “free ride” in the way that government employees in one relatively small county can.

Does Galveston Offer a Model For Social Security Reform? | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

If the United States as a whole adopted a Galveston-like plan, there would be no one left to pay the $500 billion annual cost of benefits for the nation’s 45 million current Social Security beneficiaries .

Sure there would. The US taxpayer would continue to pay the benefits until all the recipients passed.

Oh you prefer welfare. Got it

Higher benefits for future retirees isn't welfare, silly.

Right, having taxpayers pay for SS benefits that has ALWAYS been paid by program recipients is however!

You should really just stop, Im almost embarrassed for you because of the ass whipping you are taking here.

Sure Bubba, It's me conflating RETIREMENT ACCOUNTS FOR A SOCIAL INSURANCE SYSTEM??? lol

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

so its ok as long as the majority are stealing from the minority?
I guess if I walk up to you with lets say, two other people and we decide that you should give us your money, that's ok? or would it have to be four other people.

as far as working hard, Im starting to think you never have, Otherwise you would understand what it means to have your income stolen.

Jesus... he's dumber than a bag of snot. I wonder how old he is?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What I find perplexing is how the liberals seem to think they have a right to someone elses earned income.

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

Well your link didn't come out. Not your fault, it's happened to me several times on this service.

But here is a Wall Street piece that says most of the wealthy did not inherit their wealth (if the link comes out):

The Decline of Inherited Money

 

[Dad2three]

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

What's it to you? Why do you feel entitled to something you or your family didn't earn?

NO ONE EARNED A BILLION DOLLARS. Not one Walton family member nor A Koch earned their wealth, but by the lucky sperm club!!!

Somebody in their family sure did.... they didn't pick it off a vine you little nitwit. How old are you?

Sam Walton built an empire... and now his kids own it. So ******* what? Grow up.

Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, and other fellow travelers

If there was one thing the Revolutionary generation agreed on — and those guys who dress up like them at Tea Party conventions most definitely do not — it was the incompatibility of democracy and inherited wealth.





Aristocracy vs Wealth Redistribution-- What Did the Founding Fathers Say?



Shall we call it socialism when govenment uses tax policy and regulation to share the nation's wealth to deliberately cause some level of equity? If so, America has lost touch with vital parts of the original foundation of American democracy. Men such as Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson, Noah Webster, Theodore Roosevelt, William Gates Sr. and others would disagree heartily with modern conservative claims of "socialism." In fact, according to these men, equitable distribution of wealth in America is one of the founding principals of American democracy.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

If the United States as a whole adopted a Galveston-like plan, there would be no one left to pay the $500 billion annual cost of benefits for the nation’s 45 million current Social Security beneficiaries .

Sure there would. The US taxpayer would continue to pay the benefits until all the recipients passed.

Oh you prefer welfare. Got it

Higher benefits for future retirees isn't welfare, silly.

Right, having taxpayers pay for SS benefits that has ALWAYS been paid by program recipients is however!

You should really just stop, Im almost embarrassed for you because of the ass whipping you are taking here.

Sure Bubba, It's me conflating RETIREMENT ACCOUNTS FOR A SOCIAL INSURANCE SYSTEM??? lol

You don't like social security because it was designed as something that had to be paid into in order to get something back out.
you want the free money where you put no effort into earning it, but you still get a check from someone elses bank account.
what a welfare queen you must be.

 

[Dad2three]

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

Again, so what? We're asking you what justification you have for taking somebody's legally obtained property?

Envy doesn't count...

The causes which destroyed the ancient republics were numerous; but in Rome, one principal cause was the vast inequality of fortunes. Noah Webster

The disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. Adam Smith






Early Americans were all too familiar with European Aristocracy and as they began to conceive this new nation they wanted a new idea based not on Aristocratic order but on shared political power. For that to happen they believed there had to be relative equity in wealth among the citizens of America. There was a strong belief that inherited wealth would lead to a rising Aristocracy with wealthy families consolidating unfair political power. Both Thomas Jefferson and Adam Smith, that great Conservative champion, found it impossible to accept that great wealth should be passed on from parent to child. Because of this they stood firm on a redistribution of wealth in the form of an inheritance tax.



A power to dispose of estates for ever is manifestly absurd. The earth and the fulness of it belongs to every generation, and the preceding one can have no right to bind it up from posterity. Such extension of property is quite unnatural. Thomas Jefferson

There is no point more difficult to account for than the right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after death. Adam Smith

Aristocracy vs Wealth Redistribution-- What Did the Founding Fathers Say?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Then why is it completely omitted in the U.S. Constitution? Oh, because you're full of shit. And a quote from the leftwing nut site Daily Kos quoting a couple people's thoughts on the matter isn't policy.

Knock it off.

 

[Dad2three]

What I find perplexing, is conservatives/libertarians "think" those people made it on their own, without SOCIETY and our laws?

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

And most weren't. Most wealthy are self-made. But in this discussion, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter where or who you were born to. It doesn't give the government anymore right to your money than your family.

Weird, I thought as a SOCIETY we get to create LAWS that decide that?



In real life, working hard only takes you so far. Those who go all the way — to grand fortune — typically get a substantial head start. So documents a new analysis of the Forbes 400.


The ‘Self-Made’ Myth: Our Hallucinating Rich

so its ok as long as the majority are stealing from the minority?
I guess if I walk up to you with lets say, two other people and we decide that you should give us your money, that's ok? or would it have to be four other people.

as far as working hard, Im starting to think you never have, Otherwise you would understand what it means to have your income stolen.

You are SUPPOSED to outgrow that BS Ayn Rand crap by about 25 Bubs, what happened?

 

[Maryland Patriot]

What does our society and laws have to do with anything? We all have the same society and laws, yet many of us don't become wealthy. How does that work anyhow?

The only people that benefit more from our society are those who put more in: more hours, more money, more borrowing, more headaches.........

Other than that, I'll trade you one bushel of apples for your bushel of corn. Now if you happen to have much more corn than I have apples, that doesn't mean you owe me (society) anything. It means you worked harder than I did.

RIGHT, because SOME PEOPLE (Mittens Romney, Koch Brothers, the Walton's,etc) WERE born on 3rd base. Honesty. Try it'

What's it to you? Why do you feel entitled to something you or your family didn't earn?

NO ONE EARNED A BILLION DOLLARS. Not one Walton family member nor A Koch earned their wealth, but by the lucky sperm club!!!

Somebody in their family sure did.... they didn't pick it off a vine you little nitwit. How old are you?

Sam Walton built an empire... and now his kids own it. So ******* what? Grow up.

Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, and other fellow travelers

If there was one thing the Revolutionary generation agreed on — and those guys who dress up like them at Tea Party conventions most definitely do not — it was the incompatibility of democracy and inherited wealth.





Aristocracy vs Wealth Redistribution-- What Did the Founding Fathers Say?



Shall we call it socialism when govenment uses tax policy and regulation to share the nation's wealth to deliberately cause some level of equity? If so, America has lost touch with vital parts of the original foundation of American democracy. Men such as Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson, Noah Webster, Theodore Roosevelt, William Gates Sr. and others would disagree heartily with modern conservative claims of "socialism." In fact, according to these men, equitable distribution of wealth in America is one of the founding principals of American democracy.

Have you ever seen Thomas Jeffersons home? Hint it was no common worker shanty for the day.
evidently, good old TJ wanted to keep and spend what he earned. As would be the case for the rest of them too.
an equitable distribution has to be linked to an equally equitable distribution of effort. Nobody sat on their ass and got a free ride back in the day.