Should The Government Raise The Minimum Wage?

[Hutch Starskey]

So now you're saying prices and the cost of living only rise because of MW?

No, there can be other factors. Raising the MW is just one.

So, you don't then have a good argument against MW increases or any evidence to show that raises in the last 82 years have indeed resulted in the type of economic calamity that you say will happen if we raise it now.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Your common sense seems a little too common. You talk a lot but say nothing and back it up with even less. There needs to be upward pressure on wages as they have been nearly flat for some time . Obviously the ' job creators' aren't interested in doing so as evidenced by the bogus chart. That leaves gov't to do it.

I've backed up every word I've said. Having "government do it" results in inflation and loss of jobs. It's been happening for 82 years and it won't ever change. If you want to increase wages, you have to increase demand for labor in a free market system, or reduce supply of labor. Nothing else will ever work. Those are the options that will work. It's not impossible to do, we've done it before. It takes the right policies and the right mindset... neither of which you possess.

Says you. Where's the report and charts that show that result for every MW increase over these 82 years?

Already told you... I don't have charts.. I am not a propagandist trying to promote my agenda.

Ahhh, but that's exactly what you are. Using available data only strengthens your position. Refusal to offer any makes everything you say just your opinion.

 

[amrchaos]

Instead of raising the minimum wage, why not reduce the cost of living.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Wrong. You gotta show that has been the case with every increase in the last 75 years.

Uh, no. Demanding such a thing is absurd. You fail to understand what has been said.

Uh,no you just can't state an opinion as fact and expect to be taken seriously without some supporting data.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Profit margins in Corporate America are like taxes in government. Once they have the money, they'll never relinquish it.

Another example of you thinking with your emotions and not comprehending free market capitalism. I don't know of any free market capitalist business that has ever been created with the objective of merely breaking even. Even the Amish try to make a profit on what they sell. Profits are the only real motivation for any capitalist. Companies do not exist just so they can provide something for you... or because they are just 'good people' who care only about pleasing others.

"Once they have the money" they spend it, like everyone does. The money the corporation realized from profits isn't stuffed away in some rich old fart's mattress somewhere. Most corporations turn their profits back into their businesses. Growing, expanding, creating MORE jobs and MORE profits... to which they pay MORE taxes on.

Someone posted earlier about current rates of profit for some of the major corporations and they were very modest gains... 3.6%... 4%... etc. This is kind of surprising to me, I've been out of the corporate game for a while but I didn't realize things had gotten so bad. You see, I've been in those big corporate meetings with the CEO and CFO... I know what goes on behind closed doors of Corporate America. They need a profit of 10% to show any real growth. If they are below that, people's asses are getting chewed. Things are being looked at, cost-cutting measures are put into place, and the emphasis is on creating more profit.

So, if we use my chart to illustrate your point, the current gap between wages and profit would not only be completely closed by a MW increase but would also leave them at break even?

Using my chart again, the MW was last raised in May of 2009. Please point to where this chart shows any decline in corporate profits or a significant closure in the gap between the two. There isn't one, hence my statement that there is plenty of wiggle room for wage growth.

Corporate profits have nearly tripled since Jan of 2009 up some 185%. Combine that with the over 2 trillion in Corp profits being held offshore and your reasoning becomes even more flawed.

There is no way you have ever been in a boardroom unless it was to empty the trash.
You can't even convince me let alone give a competent presentation to people in a boardroom.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Plenty of wiggle room for wages.

Except that nobody gives a ****.

Profit margins in Corporate America are like taxes in government. Once they have the money, they'll never relinquish it.

That's ok with you? Even with record corporate profits they still only make up 13% of GDP. Wages even at their low levels make up 44% of GDP. It's not too hard to see that if we want more than 2-3% GDP growth , that increasing wages will go way further than Corp profits ever will. But go ahead and stick to your dumb position.

 

[sear]

Should The Government Raise The Minimum Wage?

No.

If ever / when ever wages are to be increased, it should be ONLY be based upon:

- merit, or
- market necessity (employers can't attract employees for less).

 

[Boss]

So now you're saying prices and the cost of living only rise because of MW?

No, there can be other factors. Raising the MW is just one.

So, you don't then have a good argument against MW increases or any evidence to show that raises in the last 82 years have indeed resulted in the type of economic calamity that you say will happen if we raise it now.

I never said anything about calamity happening if the MW is raised. Somewhere in one of these threads, I suggested we raise the MW to $100 hr. But some of you nit-wits didn't think that was reasonable... didn't give any reasons why... just that it wasn't "reasonable" in your minds. I say, why not? If $15 is good, isn't $100 better?

My OP argument is, that establishing a minimum wage put a baseline on labor cost across the board. Corporatists LOVE that... it helps them in the long run. They can exploit the workers longer and avoid paying higher wages as the market may demand because of this artificial barrier you've set into place. You've taken individual negotiation off the table and replaced it with the ":easy government fix" and fucked yourself in the process. Demand for labor can rise and they can maintain the baseline rate of pay because you've given them that excuse. It has worked for 82 years like that and you are still yammering about a mythical "living wage" you'll never realize.

Again... I think we should stop chasing our tails and just raise the MW to $100 hr. so that everyone will be making a real "living wage" once and for all... then all our problems are solved and we won't have to hear you liberals whining and complaining about it anymore. Frankly, $15 hr. isn't shit for wages nowadays. I couldn't live off that and raise a family... so why are we even considering such a stupid thing? Let's jack it up to $100 hr. and force companies to pay it... that solves all the problems, right?

 

[SwimExpert]

I don't know of any free market capitalist business that has ever been created with the objective of merely breaking even.

Are you trolling, or are you genuinely this stupid? I never claimed any such ridiculous thing. Of course businesses don't operate with the intent of breaking even. They're in it for profit. As much as they can get. As they should be. If they can turn a 10% profit margins, they will take every single penny. If they manage to make it 11% profit, they're going to take that too. And once they do, they won't go back to settling for 10% anymore. Thus, the fact that corporate profits are at all time highs does not mean anything to the minimum wage debate. Businesses won't simply relinquish profit margins just because Congress decides to increase the minimum wage. They'll just raise their prices to pass the cost along to the consumer, who will continue to pay the newly raised prices because there will be that many more people making more money.

 

[SwimExpert]

Uh,no you just can't state an opinion as fact and expect to be taken seriously without some supporting data.

Intelligence and logic go a long way. If you had either, you'd understand.

 

[SwimExpert]

That's ok with you?

People die. Everyone dies. Is that okay with you?

It doesn't matter if I'm "okay" with anything, when it's a simple fact of life. You think you can force people to live your values, and you are sadly mistaken.

Even with record corporate profits they still only make up 13% of GDP. Wages even at their low levels make up 44% of GDP. It's not too hard to see that if we want more than 2-3% GDP growth , that increasing wages will go way further than Corp profits ever will. But go ahead and stick to your dumb position.

Oh, this should be good. Please outline how increasing the minimum wage will contribute to GDP growth.

 

[David_42]

That's ok with you?

People die. Everyone dies. Is that okay with you?

It doesn't matter if I'm "okay" with anything, when it's a simple fact of life. You think you can force people to live your values, and you are sadly mistaken.

Even with record corporate profits they still only make up 13% of GDP. Wages even at their low levels make up 44% of GDP. It's not too hard to see that if we want more than 2-3% GDP growth , that increasing wages will go way further than Corp profits ever will. But go ahead and stick to your dumb position.

Oh, this should be good. Please outline how increasing the minimum wage will contribute to GDP growth.

Raising the Federal Minimum Wage to $10.10 Would Lift Wages for Millions and Provide a Modest Economic Boost

 

[SAYIT]

That's ok with you?

People die. Everyone dies. Is that okay with you?

It doesn't matter if I'm "okay" with anything, when it's a simple fact of life. You think you can force people to live your values, and you are sadly mistaken.

Even with record corporate profits they still only make up 13% of GDP. Wages even at their low levels make up 44% of GDP. It's not too hard to see that if we want more than 2-3% GDP growth , that increasing wages will go way further than Corp profits ever will. But go ahead and stick to your dumb position.

Oh, this should be good. Please outline how increasing the minimum wage will contribute to GDP growth.

Raising the Federal Minimum Wage to $10.10 Would Lift Wages for Millions and Provide a Modest Economic Boost

We've been here but apparently having your nose rubbed in the socialist BS you promote has had no effect on your eagerness to foist it upon this board anyway. Your source, EPI, is funded and operated by unions and unionists and both Target and Walmart, two of America's largest hourly employers, have recently pushed or will soon push their minimums to about $10/hr.
Gov't intervention, as badly as you like to believe is a good thing, is really a very bad thing.

 

[Boss]

I don't know of any free market capitalist business that has ever been created with the objective of merely breaking even.

Are you trolling, or are you genuinely this stupid? I never claimed any such ridiculous thing. Of course businesses don't operate with the intent of breaking even. They're in it for profit. As much as they can get. As they should be. If they can turn a 10% profit margins, they will take every single penny. If they manage to make it 11% profit, they're going to take that too. And once they do, they won't go back to settling for 10% anymore. Thus, the fact that corporate profits are at all time highs does not mean anything to the minimum wage debate. Businesses won't simply relinquish profit margins just because Congress decides to increase the minimum wage. They'll just raise their prices to pass the cost along to the consumer, who will continue to pay the newly raised prices because there will be that many more people making more money.

Well it sure sounds like you think capitalist enterprise is supposed to not make a profit. Here, you seem to think the capitalist achieves a profit margin then somehow magically wills it to be maintained from then on. I wish that's how capitalism really worked. If so, you could just invest in any company that showed any amount of profit with the assurance that this profit margin would always increase as they wouldn't want to ever give that up and go back... therefore, you'd become rich.

Like I said, ANY capitalist wants to earn as much profit as possible. Some people think this is "greedy" but it's not. The profit that is "possible" is limited by competition. If the capitalist becomes TOO greedy, wanting to achieve TOO much profit, another capitalist cleans their clocks and puts them out of business. Happens every single day. If MY company were running very much over 10% profit margins, I would be wanting to know what my competition is doing. Are they undercutting my prices and making less profit which will ultimately result in taking my business? It's certainly what I'd be doing if I were them. If that's not happening, then perhaps it's time for me to expand? If my profits are that high, then there is more demand than supply for what I am providing... I need to generate more supply.

I have NEVER understood this envy of companies who make "record profits" ...doesn't that mean they are also paying "record taxes?" Wouldn't they probably also have "record payrolls?" Wouldn't they be employing a "record number" of employees, most likely? Wouldn't people's stock dividends and 401Ks show "record highs" as a result? Wouldn't the assorted support industries for that company be realizing "record business" as well?

 

[Boss]

Businesses won't simply relinquish profit margins just because Congress decides to increase the minimum wage. They'll just raise their prices to pass the cost along to the consumer, who will continue to pay the newly raised prices because there will be that many more people making more money.

I can't say that you are absolutely wrong about this. Eventually, yes... prices will rise, inflation will happen, cost of living goes up, and the raise in the MW contributed to that. But what has happened the last 82 years is sort of akin to a heroin addiction. We increase the MW and for a short time, people are better off. They have more money in their pocket. But then, they buy more stuff and eventually the stuff gets too expensive again and they are back where they were before. Time for another "fix" because it's an addiction. It's killing you but no one cares. Gotta chase that high.

All it ultimately has done is increase prices and eliminate jobs as well as the ability of the individual to negotiate the price of his/her labor.

There is another hidden aspect that no one wants to discuss... Having a set MW is somewhat of a psychological barrier if you think about it.

You and I view a job as, say... a cashier... as a typical MW job... worth $x hr. We've already established the "fair market value" of that job before considering anything more. Okay, what if the job is not subject to this arbitrary MW we've set? There is no preconceived idea as to the value because one hasn't been established... therefore, the aspects of value are open to definition by the parties involved. Maybe the cashier job happens to be in a rich area where there is a shortage of menial laborers who want to be cashiers? The value would be worth considerably more than the MW because of supply and demand. BUT... since we have already pre-established that a cashier is a MW job, we accept it as such and the capitalist does as well.

And this works it's way up the ladder. Some jobs pay slightly better than MW... but we've established their value on the basis of this arbitrary wage we've set... it may not apply to the aspects of value for any particular job. I remember as a 22-year old, taking a "promotion" to store manager... I thought it was awesome... I made about $40 a week more but soon found out that I worked about 20 hrs a week more, with far more responsibility. I also gave up an almost guaranteed commission bonus for an almost impossible store sales bonus that I never got because they gave me a crappy store. So you see, I totally screwed myself but I thought I had achieved something great... all based on this artificial baseline set by government and not on the free market value of my labor and the aspects of the job I did. I accepted that... hey, that's what store managers make because that's what they said... it's more than I was making, or so I thought.

 

[SwimExpert]

Well it sure sounds like you think capitalist enterprise is supposed to not make a profit.

That's because you're a damned idiot who doesn't pay attention. Here's an idea: Whatever you think I say, just assume I'm actually saying the exact opposite.

 

[Boss]

Well it sure sounds like you think capitalist enterprise is supposed to not make a profit.

That's because you're a damned idiot who doesn't pay attention. Here's an idea: Whatever you think I say, just assume I'm actually saying the exact opposite.

Well I keep trying to do that with you because you're kind of all over the board, but it seems that every time I try applying that logic you prove me wrong again. It's getting very confusing to figure you out.

So let me see if I have this right... You DO believe Corporations should make a profit... you just believe that YOU know better about how much profit is fair or at what point it becomes unfair... even though you know nothing about the business, it's investors, the volatility of it's market, it's vulnerability to competition both foreign and domestic, whether it has gained or lost profit in the past, whether it stands to gain or lose profit in the future, and regardless of all other economic factors which might adversely effect the profit margin in the future.... YOU know what is "fair" and what is "exploitative" because you're smart like that?

Do I have it right? ...If not, please clarify what I am missing.