Should The Government Raise The Minimum Wage?

[kaz]

The very essence of a "market value" is that it's not precise! I can sell you a barrel of oil at $75, but I might sell another to Jim at $65 five minutes later. Market value is not fixed, and is never fixed. It is in constant flux, and is entirely subjective

Didn't say the market value is fixed over time, Holmes. It totally is not. You have no insight.

You see things in terms of Walmart shopping. You think that all things have a price tag built into them. Slap on the price tag, and presto it's a market value

Um...no....never said that, not once. I said market value is established when a deal is done. Never said an asking price sets market value. What you just said I said is completely contradictory to the point I actually made. But yes, when you buy an item at Walmart, then it's the market price

The rest was just inane babble

 

[kaz]

I already addressed this. Your market value is precise.

False. It is subjective and fluid.

You keep arguing the general meaning of the word "worth," which is not in contention

No. You're not paying attention apparently.

Winston Churchill: I can explain it to you, I cannot comprehend it for you.

Is that your want of saying that you'll never get it, no matter how well I explain it?

Well yes, you're absolutely right. Your thinking on this is obtuse, clumsy, and cumbersome, reminiscent of a large marble slab. Your insistence that market value must be "precise" indicates an inability to cope intellectually with fluidity and indeterminate possibilities. It is likely that you will never comprehend these things, and will only be able to achieve a limited "trained monkey" level of competency.

Playground, that is the place for your intellectual capacity

 

[SwimExpert]

The very essence of a "market value" is that it's not precise! I can sell you a barrel of oil at $75, but I might sell another to Jim at $65 five minutes later. Market value is not fixed, and is never fixed. It is in constant flux, and is entirely subjective.

Do you have any kind of a point to make other than this?

No... market value is not fixed but "fixed" does not mean the same thing as "precise." Fixed means it is set and doesn't fluctuate. Precise means it is accurate and exact. Many things can certainly be accurate and exact but not fixed... the time on your watch, for instance.

So you seem to be having trouble with comprehending basic language which is making communication with you very difficult.

A market value is never "precise." In order to be "accurate and exact" it would require it to be based entirely on tangible and objective metrics. However, as I have repeatedly stated, market value is subjective. Two jobs offering $40k a year may not have the same value. One might offer a series of bonuses in addition to base salary, while the other might offer no bonuses but pay on an hourly basis with the potential for overtime. One might have more favorable scheduling demands over the other. One might offer the opportunity to telecommute 90% of the time while the other might require 100% office attendance. One might be an advancement opportunity while the other might be an equivalent position as your current one.

These kind of intangible and subjective factors can factor in to a person's willingness to accept one or the other position. One company might be offering what amounts to a sweet deal for them, while the other might be offering what amounts to a very generous deal. The former might be completely unable to find another person who will accept the position for any less than $50k a year if I don't accept, with such alternates being less qualified or capable. My willingness to accept, or not, would be further influenced by my current position and circumstances. Maybe I'm so fed up with my current boss that I don't want to wait around much longer to hold out for more lucrative opportunities (or a more lucrative offer from the current companies).

You guys act like you're first year college students reading from a textbook. Maybe when you grow up and get some real world experience you'll realize that the nuances and details are far more intricate than the basic building block you learned about last week in lecture.

 

[2aguy]

Can you support yourself in today's economy on the current minimum wage? And if you can, you barely get by. I've read the studies and ramifications. And sure the big boys upstairs would feel it in their checkbooks for a short while, but the long run would see great promise. So, how do you think, should the government raise the minimum wage?

They shouldn't. It isn't there job to force free people who own a business to raise the amount they pay their workers....it never ends well...

 

[2aguy]

Can you support yourself in today's economy on the current minimum wage? And if you can, you barely get by. I've read the studies and ramifications. And sure the big boys upstairs would feel it in their checkbooks for a short while, but the long run would see great promise. So, how do you think, should the government raise the minimum wage?

If minimum wage were increased then Walmart employees wouldn't need to be on welfare.

Once businesses paid their employees right the government could cut billions out of welfare. Our middle class would grow! The conservatives want a large working poor as they only care about the super rich by arguing against a higher minimum wage.

No, the democrats want the unemployment the minimum wage will bring, they get credit for raising the minimum wage, and then they get to ***** about the people who are no longer employed.

 

[2aguy]

Can you support yourself in today's economy on the current minimum wage? And if you can, you barely get by. I've read the studies and ramifications. And sure the big boys upstairs would feel it in their checkbooks for a short while, but the long run would see great promise. So, how do you think, should the government raise the minimum wage?

If minimum wage were increased then Walmart employees wouldn't need to be on welfare.

No...if the Walmart employees on welfare had stayed in high school, not had kids till they were married, not committed crimes, and got some job training, then they wouldn't be on welfare....

Walmart has nothing to do with that....

 

[2aguy]

Can you support yourself in today's economy on the current minimum wage? And if you can, you barely get by. I've read the studies and ramifications. And sure the big boys upstairs would feel it in their checkbooks for a short while, but the long run would see great promise. So, how do you think, should the government raise the minimum wage?

I think there should be a couple of "minimums" based on how big the business or corp is...Small businesses should have more flexibility with a minimum wage around 8.25 for businesses with income of less then 10 million per year,,,,9.25 for 50 million or less and 10.10 for 500 million per year. This way it doesn't harm business creation but it more fairly forces the big businesses to pay better wages...Maybe as we get to 5 and 10 billion per year corps we can demand 15 bucks per hour.

I feel this would work as most really big businesses are either piling the dollars up in some back room or paying their ceo's/board insane amounts of money.

Why should a small business pay slave wages......if you are going to force a minimum wage on free people, why allow some to keep slaves at a lower wage? Everyone gets hit....so the most damage is done to the most people...then the big companies like target and walmart get a few really good employees and the rest of the people are on welfare.....

 

[Boss]

The very essence of a "market value" is that it's not precise! I can sell you a barrel of oil at $75, but I might sell another to Jim at $65 five minutes later. Market value is not fixed, and is never fixed. It is in constant flux, and is entirely subjective.

Do you have any kind of a point to make other than this?

No... market value is not fixed but "fixed" does not mean the same thing as "precise." Fixed means it is set and doesn't fluctuate. Precise means it is accurate and exact. Many things can certainly be accurate and exact but not fixed... the time on your watch, for instance.

So you seem to be having trouble with comprehending basic language which is making communication with you very difficult.

A market value is never "precise." In order to be "accurate and exact" it would require it to be based entirely on tangible and objective metrics. However, as I have repeatedly stated, market value is subjective. Two jobs offering $40k a year may not have the same value. One might offer a series of bonuses in addition to base salary, while the other might offer no bonuses but pay on an hourly basis with the potential for overtime. One might have more favorable scheduling demands over the other. One might offer the opportunity to telecommute 90% of the time while the other might require 100% office attendance. One might be an advancement opportunity while the other might be an equivalent position as your current one.

These kind of intangible and subjective factors can factor in to a person's willingness to accept one or the other position. One company might be offering what amounts to a sweet deal for them, while the other might be offering what amounts to a very generous deal. The former might be completely unable to find another person who will accept the position for any less than $50k a year if I don't accept, with such alternates being less qualified or capable. My willingness to accept, or not, would be further influenced by my current position and circumstances. Maybe I'm so fed up with my current boss that I don't want to wait around much longer to hold out for more lucrative opportunities (or a more lucrative offer from the current companies).

You guys act like you're first year college students reading from a textbook. Maybe when you grow up and get some real world experience you'll realize that the nuances and details are far more intricate than the basic building block you learned about last week in lecture.

A market value is never "precise." In order to be "accurate and exact" it would require it to be based entirely on tangible and objective metrics.

Yes, and those tangible and objective metrics are called "supply and demand" in a free market system. You are giving an example of two employers offering different incentives for a prospective employee and claiming this means the value of the job is "subjective" ...but it's not. The market value is precisely what is accepted by the person who takes the job, regardless of the incentives or your perception of their value. No one I've ever heard of would take a job at $7.50 an hour with the understanding that the job is being valued subjectively and worth much more. You're not forced to accept the value placed on the job by the employer, it's entirely up to you in a free society.

Now,...If we were in China or North Korea, you might have something approaching a valid point.

 

[SwimExpert]

Yes, and those tangible and objective metrics are called "supply and demand" in a free market system.

That was a really ******* stupid thing to say. "Supply and demand" are the exact opposite of precise and objective.

 

[Boss]

Yes, and those tangible and objective metrics are called "supply and demand" in a free market system.

That was a really ******* stupid thing to say. "Supply and demand" are the exact opposite of precise and objective.

I guess when you're fucked up huffing glue or paint fumes everything is funny?

Why don't you invest in a dictionary and learn the meanings of words before you come here and make a fool of yourself? You seem very confused with some not-so-big words.

Supply is a tangible amount of something that exists. Demand is an objective amount of something desired. Together, they form the precise metrics of free market capitalism.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

The best way to reduce welfare is to pay our workers right and we ******* know the super rich are having record profit.

And you think they're simply going to give up those record profits willingly? No, of course they won't. They'll simply raise prices on everything, until the new minimum wage is just as useless as the old minimum wage.

Wrong. You gotta show that has been the case with every increase in the last 75 years.

 

[David_42]

The best way to reduce welfare is to pay our workers right and we ******* know the super rich are having record profit.

And you think they're simply going to give up those record profits willingly? No, of course they won't. They'll simply raise prices on everything, until the new minimum wage is just as useless as the old minimum wage.

Wrong. You gotta show that has been the case with every increase in the last 75 years.

It hasn't, when the MW was raised to 7.25, prices barely moved.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Bullshit buddy, the cost of living argument has been used against every MW increase proposal.. The cost of living goes up either way.

So....you believe the evil, greedy, corrupt rich guys at the top of the corporate ladder are simply going to volunteer to take the increase out of their own paychecks?

Plenty of wiggle room for wages.

 

[Boss]

For 82 years we've had the minimum wage. When introduced, FDR cited the very problem that liberal Democrats cite today... the lack of a "living wage".... it is something that has never been realized. What has ALWAYS happened, and always WILL happen, is the market eventually absorbs the increase and the prices of everything rises. It's chasing your tail.

 

[Boss]

Plenty of wiggle room for wages.

But you're an idiot who doesn't understand business or capitalism, much less these bogus charts you keep throwing up. You're an emotive reactionary who thinks we can force capitalists to give up profits to satisfy your emotional needs. Number one, it doesn't work... Number two, your emotional needs can't ever be satisfied.

 

[David_42]

Plenty of wiggle room for wages.

But you're an idiot who doesn't understand business or capitalism, much less these bogus charts you keep throwing up. You're an emotive reactionary who thinks we can force capitalists to give up profits to satisfy your emotional needs. Number one, it doesn't work... Number two, your emotional needs can't ever be satisfied.

Hey, buddy, guess what? You're wrong. "Bogus charts." Refute them.
Force capitalists? The MW has been around for many decades and this country once had massive tax rates while prospering.

 

[Boss]

Wrong. You gotta show that has been the case with every increase in the last 75 years.

It has been the case for 82 years.

 

[David_42]

Wrong. You gotta show that has been the case with every increase in the last 75 years.

It has been the case for 82 years.

Show it then. Oh wait, you can't. Then again, you're ok with blowing up pregnant mothers with land mines..

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Wrong. You gotta show that has been the case with every increase in the last 75 years.

It has been the case for 82 years.

Show it. It should be easy. I'm sure there's a nice report out there that shows that clearly.

 

[Boss]

Plenty of wiggle room for wages.

But you're an idiot who doesn't understand business or capitalism, much less these bogus charts you keep throwing up. You're an emotive reactionary who thinks we can force capitalists to give up profits to satisfy your emotional needs. Number one, it doesn't work... Number two, your emotional needs can't ever be satisfied.

Hey, buddy, guess what? You're wrong. "Bogus charts." Refute them.
Force capitalists? The MW has been around for many decades and this country once had massive tax rates while prospering.

Okay.. I'll refute the one above... it shows us the percentage of increase in profits and salaries compared to GDP. It doesn't show us the increase in cost to the employers in order to comply with government mandates like health care insurance and family leave. It doesn't show us the number of good paying jobs that have been outsourced or eliminated due to tax policy or other government regulations. It also doesn't indicate anything with regard to supply and demand of the market during this same time period. So it's basically a bunch of bogus misleading information, done up nicely in a chart for wannabe Commies to promote their propaganda.