Should Israel have been created?

[toastman]

FOR posters who are not little children, you should be able to find your way to the UNISPAL website and find dozens of documents addressing the Palestinian people's right of self determination in the land of Palestine.

For posters who are Nazis , you should post a link containing information that contradicts what Rocco's last post said concerning sovereignty and self determination, or you need to shut you terrorist worsshipping mouth and listen to people who know what they are talking about

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Every year the UN passes a Resolution affirming the Palestinian people's right of self determination, like the one they passed in December of 2012.

ANNEX IV Vote on Palestinian Self-Determination

The draft resolution on the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination (document A/67/456) was adopted by a recorded vote of 179 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:

In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, South Sudan, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United Republic of Tanzania, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Against: Canada, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.

Abstain: Cameroon, Honduras, Tonga.

Absent: Equatorial Guinea, Ghana, Kiribati, Sao Tome and Principe.

Right of the Palestinian people to self-determination - GA vote (Plenary) - Press release (Excerpts) (20 December 2012)

Sherri

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Another UN Document addresses the basis for this annual finding that the Palestinian people have a right of self determination in the Occupied Plaestinian Territories.

Draft resolution II The right of the Palestinian people to self-determination

The General Assembly, Aware that the development of friendly relations among nations, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, is among the purposes and principles of the United Nations, as defined in the Charter,

Recalling, in this regard, its resolution 2625 (XXV) of 24 October 1970 entitled “Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations”,

Bearing in mind the International Covenants on Human Rights,1 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,2 the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples3 and the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action adopted at the World Conference on Human Rights on 25 June 1993,4

Recalling the Declaration on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the United Nations,5
Recalling also the United Nations Millennium Declaration,6

Recalling further the advisory opinion rendered on 9 July 2004 by the International Court of Justice on the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory,7 and noting in particular the reply of the Court, including on the right of peoples to self-determination, which is a right erga omnes,8

Recalling the conclusion of the Court, in its advisory opinion of 9 July 2004, that the construction of the wall by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, along with measures previously taken, severely impedes the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,9

Expressing the urgent need for the resumption and accelerated advancement of negotiations within the Middle East peace process, based on the relevant resolutions of the United Nations, the Madrid terms of reference, including the principle of land for peace, the Arab Peace Initiative10 and the Quartet road map to a permanent two-State solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,11 and for the speedy achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement between the Palestinian and Israeli sides,

Stressing the need for respect for and preservation of the territorial unity, contiguity and integrity of all of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and recalling in this regard its resolution 58/292 of 6 May 2004,

Recalling its resolution 66/146 of 19 December 2011,

Affirming the right of all States in the region to live in peace within secure and internationally recognized borders,

1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including the right to their independent State of Palestine;

2. Urges all States and the specialized agencies and organizations of the United Nations system to continue to support and assist the Palestinian people in the early realization of their right to self-determination.

A/67/456 of 7 December 2012

It is deeply entrenched in international law, the right of self determination in the land, of the Palestinian people.

Sherri

 

[toastman]

Pay attention Sherri,you once again didn't contradict anything Rocco said. You are just posting Jibberish crap and are trying to get a fast one by me lol. Who do you think you are fooling ?

 

[irosie91]

Pay attention Sherri,you once again didn't contradict anything Rocco said. You are just posting Jibberish crap and are trying to get a fast one by me lol. Who do you think you are fooling ?

Toast early in my life I came in contact with lots of HINDUS----they are a very
diverse group and they so fascinated me that now I cook Dhal and Chapattis---
My interaction included communicating with them ----and I became expert to
the point that by virtue of the manner an Indian spoke english---I could
discern from what province he hailed from in India. People of the
Indian subcontinent have definite "racial" (a better term is 'genetic strain' )
characteristics. As far as I have been able to ascertain the MOST
INDIGENOUS are the "dravidians" My impression of dravidians---
aside from their peculiar manner of speaking english----is that they are
a bit small----ie in stature and general build and very dark complected--
and "pretty" In fact DRAVDIANS ARE THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
OF THE INDUS VALLEY ------which makes them the SOVEREIGNS
of the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT according to sherri Is that not a
delight?-----sherri unequivocally states that they have a right to toss
the INVADING MOGHULS ***THE HELL*** out of the Indian sub-
continent------what they wish to do about the invading aryans (the
taller people) ---well----I will leave that up to the INDIGENOUS
DRAVDIANS (once the cleanse the place of the invading moghuls
<<<< read that "muslims" )

 

[Billo_Really]

What, exactly, do you think is the practical application of sovereignty and the right of self-determination? Where is that universally defined? Do you think that I can just declare my quarter acre of property sovereign from the nation, independent under my right of self-determination? I own it!

That's exactly what the zionists did on May 14, 1948.

[Israel] came into being on May 14, 1948, when the Zionist leadership unilaterally, and with no legal authority, declared Israel’s existence, with no specification as to the extent of the new state’s borders. In a moment, the Zionists had declared that Arabs no longer the owners of their land – it now belonged to the Jews. In an instant, the Zionists had declared that the majority Arabs of Palestine were now second-class citizens in the new “Jewish State”.

You need to practice what you preach.

 

[Billo_Really]

Pay attention Sherri,you once again didn't contradict anything Rocco said. You are just posting Jibberish crap and are trying to get a fast one by me lol. Who do you think you are fooling ?

You calling UN resolutions "jibberish", say's a lot!

 

[docmauser1]

You calling UN resolutions "jibberish", ... .

Worthy to be recycled into good toilet paper too.

 

[Billo_Really]

Worthy to be recycled into good toilet paper too.

What happened to "drivel"?

 

[editec]

The question

Should Israel have been created?

leads me to ask the same question about many nations that exist now that are the direct or indirect result of the MANDATE system following WWI.

Obviously history cannot answer questions like "Should have...?" because such asking questions are above history's paygrade.

Real history does not make MORAL judgements.

Such judgements about the past are always left to the living.

All history can do is try to decribe the event and intuit the motives of the actors.

I believe that Balfour guaranteed Zionists the right to return to the state of Palestine because England was strapped for money during WWI and RothChild's influence over the banking community of England, the USA and much of Europe was so vast.

Should Balfour have done that?

Depends on whether or not you think ENGLAND would have survived without enough credit to conduct the First World War.

 

[docmauser1]

Worthy to be recycled into good toilet paper too.

What happened to "drivel"?

Nothing, actually. It's still being produced under the brand name "The UN Resolutions", of course.

 

[Billo_Really]

The question

Should Israel have been created?

leads me to ask the same question about many nations that exist now that are the direct or indirect result of the MANDATE system following WWI.

Obviously history cannot answer questions like "Should have...?" because such asking questions are above history's paygrade.

Real history does not make MORAL judgements.

Such judgements about the past are always left to the living.

All history can do is try to decribe the event and intuit the motives of the actors.

I believe that Balfour guaranteed Zionists the right to return to the state of Palestine because England was strapped for money during WWI and RothChild's influence over the banking community of England, the USA and much of Europe was so vast.

Should Balfour have done that?

Depends on whether or not you think ENGLAND would have survived without enough credit to conduct the First World War.

The Balfour decision allowed for the creation of a jewish state with the caveat that it must be done without infringing on the rights of the indigenous non-jewish population of Palestine. But unfortunately, that's not what happened.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWI the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

Israelis has always occupied Isreal, the country of Isreal may have just recently recognized, but Israelis have always been in the country.

 

[editec]

The question

Should Israel have been created?

leads me to ask the same question about many nations that exist now that are the direct or indirect result of the MANDATE system following WWI.

Obviously history cannot answer questions like "Should have...?" because such asking questions are above history's paygrade.

Real history does not make MORAL judgements.

Such judgements about the past are always left to the living.

All history can do is try to decribe the event and intuit the motives of the actors.

I believe that Balfour guaranteed Zionists the right to return to the state of Palestine because England was strapped for money during WWI and RothChild's influence over the banking community of England, the USA and much of Europe was so vast.

Should Balfour have done that?

Depends on whether or not you think ENGLAND would have survived without enough credit to conduct the First World War.

The Balfour decision allowed for the creation of a jewish state with the caveat that it must be done without infringing on the rights of the indigenous non-jewish population of Palestine. But unfortunately, that's not what happened.

Yup, that is true.

And Balfour also promised the King of Jordan that NO JEWISH state would be forged and that massive Jewish emigration to Palestine would not happen, too.

England both needed money AND England needed the Arabs to continue fight against the Ottoman empire druing WWI.

Hence he promised diametrically opposing promises to two different groups of people.

And for a time (on and off, too I note) England tried to keep Balfours promise to the Arabs, by stopping emigration of European Jews to then Palstine.

Its a very confusing issue because ENGLAND's policies changed from time to time.

At times after WWI the Zionists were pissed because England prevented emigration, other times the English pissed off the Arabs because they allowed it.

All of the above is well known history denied by no Arab or Israeli scholars.

 

[toastman]

Worthy to be recycled into good toilet paper too.

What happened to "drivel"?

I'm trying to say that Sherri didn't even contradict what Rocco said.

 

[RoccoR]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Oh yes, I understand the words are used.

THEY have a right of self determination in the land under intl law and the UN has recognized that right for over 65 years. COUNTLESS UN documents on UNISPAL WEBSITE ADDRESS THIS RIGHT OF THE Palestinian people in the land of Palestine. INTL LAW is what it is, noones dreams of Empire will change any of that!

(QUESTION)

What is it?

• Where is the right of self determination defined?
• Where is sovereignty defined?

Are they related and how?

Who gave the Palestinians these undefined things and when?

How does what the Palestinians have today differ from what the people of any of the adjacent countries have? Do the Palestinians that live in Jordan, Lebanon, or Saudi Arabia have these same rights? Exactly what is it that those people can do that the people in Palestine cannot do?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Oh yes, I understand the words are used.

THEY have a right of self determination in the land under intl law and the UN has recognized that right for over 65 years. COUNTLESS UN documents on UNISPAL WEBSITE ADDRESS THIS RIGHT OF THE Palestinian people in the land of Palestine. INTL LAW is what it is, noones dreams of Empire will change any of that!

(QUESTION)

What is it?

• Where is the right of self determination defined?
• Where is sovereignty defined?

Are they related and how?

Who gave the Palestinians these undefined things and when?

How does what the Palestinians have today differ from what the people of any of the adjacent countries have? Do the Palestinians that live in Jordan, Lebanon, or Saudi Arabia have these same rights? Exactly what is it that those people can do that the people in Palestine cannot do?

Most Respectfully,
R

THE right of self determination has been a part of intl law for decades.The Idea behind The Mandates was giving the indigenous peoples their right of self determination. THE issue is not what the law is or says, it is how to we get to a place where intl law is abided by. AS I said a few posts back, the UNISPAL website is filled with documents discussing this right of self determination. THERE are some historical documents that I have accessed before that go into lengthy discussions of intl law.

 

[RoccoR]

lionboy, et al,

Actually, the UN General Assembly, doesn't quite see it that way.

What, exactly, do you think is the practical application of sovereignty and the right of self-determination? Where is that universally defined? Do you think that I can just declare my quarter acre of property sovereign from the nation, independent under my right of self-determination? I own it!

That's exactly what the zionists did on May 14, 1948.

[Israel] came into being on May 14, 1948, when the Zionist leadership unilaterally, and with no legal authority, declared Israel’s existence, with no specification as to the extent of the new state’s borders. In a moment, the Zionists had declared that Arabs no longer the owners of their land – it now belonged to the Jews. In an instant, the Zionists had declared that the majority Arabs of Palestine were now second-class citizens in the new “Jewish State”.

You need to practice what you preach.

(COMMENT)

In my application example of my little quarter acre, you are quite right, there is a question of authority. However, in the case of Palestine, there is an authority and a source of recognition.

Forward: Page iii

This revised edition of “The Question of Palestine and the United Nations” reflects a number of milestones and events through the end of 2007. Foremost among these was the passage of 60 years since the adoption by the General Assembly in 1947 of resolution 181 (II), providing for the establishment of an Arab State and a Jewish State in the former Mandate territory of Palestine, with a special status for the holy city of Jerusalem.

By resolution 181 (II), the Assembly also set up the United Nations Palestine Commission to carry out its recommendations and requested the Security Council to take the necessary measures to implement the plan of partition.

The Jewish Agency accepted the resolution despite its dissatisfaction over such matters as Jewish emigration from Europe and the territorial limits set on the proposed Jewish State. The plan was not accepted by the Palestinian Arabs and Arab States on the ground that it violated the provisions of the United Nations Charter, which granted people the right to decide their own destiny. They said that the Assembly had endorsed the plan under circumstances unworthy of the United Nations and that the Arabs of Palestine would oppose any scheme that provided for the dissection, segregation or partition of their country, or which gave special and preferential rights and status to a minority.

SOURCE: http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Oh yes, I understand the words are used.

THEY have a right of self determination in the land under intl law and the UN has recognized that right for over 65 years. COUNTLESS UN documents on UNISPAL WEBSITE ADDRESS THIS RIGHT OF THE Palestinian people in the land of Palestine. INTL LAW is what it is, noones dreams of Empire will change any of that!

(QUESTION)

What is it?

• Where is the right of self determination defined?
• Where is sovereignty defined?

Are they related and how?

Who gave the Palestinians these undefined things and when?

How does what the Palestinians have today differ from what the people of any of the adjacent countries have? Do the Palestinians that live in Jordan, Lebanon, or Saudi Arabia have these same rights? Exactly what is it that those people can do that the people in Palestine cannot do?

Most Respectfully,
R

----------------------------------------------**In November 1975, the United Nations General Assembly defined those rights as the right to self-determination without external interference, national independence and sovereignty, and the right to return to their homes and property from which they had been displaced. THIS appears on the title page to the UNISPAL website and describes the rights of the Palestinian peoples in the land of Palestine under intl law. NOW, after 1967 and even more so after The International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion on The Wall, we see that right of self determination of the Palestinian people expressed as referring to rights they have to control in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and Gaza. This right encompasses sovereignty rights, as the language on the UN site itself makes clear.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

THE ADvisory Opinion on The Wall also contains a discussion of this right of self determination of the Palestinian peoples.