Should Israel have been created?

[drac]

I want to make it clear that the question was not meant to offend or disparage the Jewish or Arab people. I just never found the situation to be clear cut. While the point was given that other nationalities have homelands, the point is that not all nationalities have homelands. The Irani (not to be confused with Iranian), Basque, Kurds, Sami, Native American/Inuit, Cossack, Turkmen are all very distinct nationalities, most who have been,unfortunately, oppressed sometime in history.

It is not about being offended or disparage, i did not take it that way. It is about who is it to decide if one group of people (meeting some requirements) should have an idependent state. (btw turkmen do have they own state.)

It's not question of whether they deserve a homeland, it's a question if the Jews would have been better off remaining a cultural entity as they existed before. Of course, I ask this with the benefit of hindsight.

That is a problem, they were not allowed to remain/retain a cultural identity by being members of various state. So in order to remain jewish and frankly to survive they needed a separate state.

Consider if we had created Kurdistan at the same time as Israel. The Arabs of Iraq, Turks and Sunnis from Iran from the region would have most likely gone to war to press their claims on that territory as well. It's always a tricky situation to cede land where other populations are present to create new countries.

Yes it is a tricky situation, but it is not a 'showstoper'. There are number of solutions for it (india/pakistan) The threat of others to declare war on the newly created state should not serve as a stop to the national independence of suppressed.

 

[manu1959]

the american indians don't have a homeland

 

[dilloduck]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWII the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

Intersting proposal ! After some thinking I have come to the conclusion that had the UN and British not partitioned the mideast, it would have been only a matter of time before the Jews claimed it anyway because of their religious beliefs. It would have been contested by the Arabs also and the same basic battles would have ensued. The British and UN mandates merely gave the Jews an "earthly deed" to a land that they always considerered to be theirs by religious prophecy. If Mecca and Medina were to be taken over by a non-arab country, muslims too would fight for the return of what thier religion told them was rightfully theirs.
This becomes an inevitable problem when adherents to a religion feel entitled and dependent on a plot of land for their salvation. Many Chistians also believe that their salvation is somehow tied up in future events in the mideast hence they tend to support the Jewish efforts because in many ways they are one in the same.
I'm glad my spiritualty is not dependent on a plot of land being in the possession of "my" people".

 

[DaTroof]

Hey Manu ... Ever been to Foxwoods ?!

 

[DaTroof]

I don't think that anyone is offended. This is a good question and one that we all seem to be able to handle maturely. No worries mate

 

[drac]

Intersting proposal ! After some thinking I have come to the conclusion that had the UN and British not partitioned the mideast, it would have been only a matter of time before the Jews claimed it anyway because of their religious beliefs. It would have been contested by the Arabs also and the same basic battles would have ensued. The British and UN mandates merely gave the Jews an "earthly deed" to a land that they always considerered to be theirs by religious prophecy. If Mecca and Medina were to be taken over by a non-arab country, muslims too would fight for the return of what thier religion told them was rightfully theirs.
This becomes an inevitable problem when adherents to a religion feel entitled and dependent on a plot of land for their salvation. Many Chistians also believe that their salvation is somehow tied up in future events in the mideast hence they tend to support the Jewish efforts because in many ways they are one in the same.
I'm glad my spiritualty is not dependent on a plot of land being in the possession of "my" people".

Why is it always seems to be connected only to religion? Jews have connection to the land due to history as well as religion. I would even argue that it is stronger connection. Connection to one's roots and history, to place where it is all started, where identity of being jewish was born. Does it have relgious connection/meaning? Of cause, but to consider it to be the major one and/or only one reason is a big mistake imho.
Why french, germans, arabs.. live in the area they are? Because of the history. Dening it to jews is a mistake.

Let me ask you dillo. Taking the religous reasons away. Where should jewish people have a country? If you are in charge, where o mighty Dillo can jews have a homeland?

 

[Isaac Brock]

Why is it always seems to be connected only to religion? Jews have connection to the land due to history as well as religion. I would even argue that it is stronger connection. Connection to one's roots and history, to place where it is all started, where identity of being jewish was born. Does it have relgious connection/meaning? Of cause, but to consider it to be the major one and/or only one reason is a big mistake imho.
Why french, germans, arabs.. live in the area they are? Because of the history. Dening it to jews is a mistake.

Let me ask you dillo. Taking the religous reasons away. Where should jewish people have a country? If you are in charge, where o mighty Dillo can jews have a homeland?

I think the point that is made is that countries are where they are now, not because of moral ground, but founded on blood and iron of war.

France exists because Charlemagne kicked out various tribes and by receeiving English claims through the Hundred Years War.

Germany exists because the Germanic tribes kicked out the Romans. The unification of Germany came about through the diplomatic and military annexation of German minors by Prussia.

US beat the the Indians and British.

Russia beat, well, you name it.`

Etc, etc.

With the exception of the colonial independance movements of the 20th century and Canada, most country and people are where they are now through shear military conquest, not because they deserved it. It's a grim thought, but indeed that was the way realpolitik manefested itself.

I supposed one could argue that Jews "re-conquered" their land through aiding the Allies in fighting the Ottomans... I'm not so sure that it was a much that as it was the Allies ceding the territory.

 

[DaTroof]

Isaac, It is interesting that you bring up this point of backing the allies. I have really never met a people who pick losers as well as the Palestinian leadership. Between backing Hitler and Husein (Twice), it baffles me why the international community gives a dime to the PA. Bying off people so that they won't hate you and blow crap up really doesn't work when all the money is skimmed at the top and a bare minimum reaches the pissed off people on the street. Everyone knows that they dance in the streets in celebration of non-Moslems' death. I can't be the only one to have seen the videos. Yet we still try to buy them off. The world community is acting like a rich kid who would rather pay off the schoolyard bully than stand for what's right ... until he finally got punched in the nose and now has to do something. Let's grow some nuts and tell the Muslem world what they can do with their planet annexing selves .. as soon as we find a replacement for fossil fuel.

 

[ajwps]

I was under the impression that Creation of Israel was apart of the Franco-British Sykes Picot/Balfour agreement? As i understand, after the defeat of the Ottomans in WWII the British suggested Jews immigrate back to their homeland as thanks for their aid in over-running the Ottomans. Under an agreement, the Jews settle 25% of the British Mandated Palestine and gave the other 75%, Trans-Jordan to ther current "Palestinian" occupants.

I understood that a UN resolution in 1947 allowed the partition of British mandated Palestine which wasn't supported by Arab nations and that Israel declared independence according to the passed UN resolution.

Sometime I just wonder for the Jewish people whether or not they would have been better off and more secure living in various countries post-WWII. Of course, I am not Jewish and cannot answer that.

Actually Israel had already been a state before the UN Partition vote.

For most Jews, the existence of the state was already a fait accompli. Theodor Herzl, the late-19th century founding visionary of modern Jewish nationalism, had willed it so at the First Zionist Congress, in Basel, Switzerland in 1897 and in 1917, the Balfour Declaration confirmed the right of the Jewish people to a national homeland in Israel Palestine. But for the world, the State of Israel came into being on November 29, 1947, the day the United Nations General Assembly passed the Partition Plan by a two-thirds majority vote. Throngs of people filled the streets in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa and in settlements throughout the yishuv with euphoric singing and dancing. The Jews were to be granted their own state, albeit small, and the British mandatory officials were to depart by August 1, 1948.

The next day 5 Arab armies attacked the State of Israel and the Arabs lost against the 3 thousand year old Israel.

Possession of a land constitutes 100% ownership of the land until someone wishes to take it away by war.

No the Jewish people would not have been better served by living in other people's lands instead of retaining their own eon long land. History teaches lessons and the Jews have at times been welcomed in all lands around the world but eventually they are expelled or killed when these countries came into bad times. It was always easier to blame their Jewish citizens. Hitler demosntrated that no country was willing to take Europes Jews so more than six million were gassed and cremated for being born into a harmless religion. Very nice.

If I wish to take the United States or France for my country, I will have to attack these countries with my armies and make me the owner of these lands.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Actually Israel had already been a state before the UN Partition vote.

For most Jews, the existence of the state was already a fait accompli. Theodor Herzl, the late-19th century founding visionary of modern Jewish nationalism, had willed it so at the First Zionist Congress, in Basel, Switzerland in 1897 and in 1917, the Balfour Declaration confirmed the right of the Jewish people to a national homeland in Israel Palestine. But for the world, the State of Israel came into being on November 29, 1947, the day the United Nations General Assembly passed the Partition Plan by a two-thirds majority vote. Throngs of people filled the streets in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa and in settlements throughout the yishuv with euphoric singing and dancing. The Jews were to be granted their own state, albeit small, and the British mandatory officials were to depart by August 1, 1948.

The next day 5 Arab armies attacked the State of Israel and the Arabs lost against the 3 thousand year old Israel.

Possession of a land constitutes 100% ownership of the land until someone wishes to take it away by war.

No the Jewish people would not have been better served by living in other people's lands instead of retaining their own eon long land. History teaches lessons and the Jews have at times been welcomed in all lands around the world but eventually they are expelled or killed when these countries came into bad times. It was always easier to blame their Jewish citizens. Hitler demosntrated that no country was willing to take Europes Jews so more than six million were gassed and cremated for being born into a harmless religion. Very nice.

If I wish to take the United States or France for my country, I will have to attack these countries with my armies and make me the owner of these lands.

To paraphrase aj's comments:"Bring it on!"

 

[ajwps]

To paraphrase aj's comments:"Bring it on!"

Good paraphrasing. The question is not whether IT will be brought-on but more accurately WHEN Israel will be attacked.

The response to such an attack by any nation or group of nations will be a very big surprise to any who try to bring it on.

 

[DaTroof]

I agree with some of what you say but there is one thing that brings up a problem. Islam is marching it's armies all over the world. Like in Sudan. Just because Islam rapes and kills the black African inhabitants, doesn't meen that this is morally correct. It should be stopped at all costs. The difference is that Jews have always been in Israel and the diaspora has always prayed to return to Israel. This has never changed.

 

[nbdysfu]

I agree with some of what you say but there is one thing that brings up a problem. Islam is marching it's armies all over the world. Like in Sudan. Just because Islam rapes and kills the black African inhabitants, doesn't meen that this is morally correct. It should be stopped at all costs. The difference is that Jews have always been in Israel and the diaspora has always prayed to return to Israel. This has never changed.

Big difference: Sudanese Islamists are raping and murdering innocent people. Isreali army targets specific individuals who have murdered innocent people.

 

[ajwps]

I agree with some of what you say but there is one thing that brings up a problem. Islam is marching it's armies all over the world. Like in Sudan. Just because Islam rapes and kills the black African inhabitants, doesn't meen that this is morally correct. It should be stopped at all costs. The difference is that Jews have always been in Israel and the diaspora has always prayed to return to Israel. This has never changed.

There are a few flaws in your statements. Islam is not marching its armies all over the world. Islam is made up of competing subgroups based not only on the two claimants to Prophet Muhammad's role as leader of Islam (the Sunni and Shiite) groups but also into individual fiefdoms where each Muslim cleric or Mullah fights each other for dominance. Much like primal wolf packs.

All Islam hates the Jewish people and the west for the Islamic world power status has been stalemated into a 4th century civilization with their last glory during the time of Saladin. This fact is their only unifying focus on hate, murder and rape. The Sudan's Muslims is a local fiefdom that has a Qur'anic commandment to kill the black Africans and take their lives and lands based on the law of the beast. Much like the Malasian, Afghan and Pakistan Muslims do to their non-Muslim neighbors.

There is no way of stopping Islam's multi-individual destruction subgroups without destroying the only central portal they all have to paradise. This portal is Mecca and its Kabah where Islam believes the right hand of Allah resides in a black-rock.

Jews (in the diaspora) exist in just about every country in the world with only one haven to return to when any country decides its time to expel or murder their Jewish populations.

Israel and the Jews will certainly pay a very high price because of their apostasy but in the end the land will be retained by the remnant of the Jewish people. There are only different free choice paths to the end which has been decided long long ago.

 

[dilloduck]

There are a few flaws in your statements. Islam is not marching its armies all over the world. Islam is made up of competing subgroups based not only on the two claimants to Prophet Muhammad's role as leader of Islam (the Sunni and Shiite) groups but also into individual fiefdoms where each Muslim cleric or Mullah fights each other for dominance. Much like primal wolf packs.

All Islam hates the Jewish people and the west for the Islamic world power status has been stalemated into a 4th century civilization with their last glory during the time of Saladin. This fact is their only unifying focus on hate, murder and rape. The Sudan's Muslims is a local fiefdom that has a Qur'anic commandment to kill the black Africans and take their lives and lands based on the law of the beast. Much like the Malasian, Afghan and Pakistan Muslims do to their non-Muslim neighbors.

There is no way of stopping Islam's multi-individual destruction subgroups without destroying the only central portal they all have to paradise. This portal is Mecca and its Kabah where Islam believes the right hand of Allah resides in a black-rock.

Jews (in the diaspora) exist in just about every country in the world with only one haven to return to when any country decides its time to expel or murder their Jewish populations.

Israel and the Jews will certainly pay a very high price because of their apostasy but in the end the land will be retained by the remnant of the Jewish people. There are only different free choice paths to the end which has been decided long long ago.

Interesting---So jews are to be the only people who can live all over the world but have a place to go when they are "run out" of wherever they are at? Maybe some people are mad at jews because they expect to be able to " go home" when things get bad. I don't think anyone else has this do they?

 

[ajwps]

Interesting---So jews are to be the only people who can live all over the world but have a place to go when they are "run out" of wherever they are at? Maybe some people are mad at jews because they expect to be able to " go home" when things get bad.

So some 'people' are mad at (hate) Jews because they also have a country of their own? What neuron did you use to come up with this muse of yours?

I don't think anyone else has this do they?

Can you name just one group, people or religion that does not have a country of origin beside the Jewish people which now have Israel to escape to in times of peril?

 

[dilloduck]

So some 'people' are mad at (hate) Jews because they also have a country of their own? What neuron did you use to come up with this muse of yours?
name calling mood I see


Can you name just one group, people or religion that does not have a country of origin beside the Jewish people which now have Israel to escape to in times of peril?

I'm an American and it is my country of origin----where do I go when I am persecuted ?
( I mean damn---I get put down by jews in America ,ya know ? )

 

[ajwps]

So some 'people' are mad at (hate) Jews because they also have a country of their own? What neuron did you use to come up with this muse of yours?

name calling mood I see

Sorry, exactly what name did I call you?

I'm an American and it is my country of origin----where do I go when I am persecuted ?

If you lived in Paris or Kurdistan or anywhere else, you would always be able to return to your USA country of origin.

If Jews persecute, kill or expel Jews in Israel then they call that a civil war. The same for you in America.

 

[dilloduck]

name calling mood I see

Sorry, exactly what name did I call you?



If you lived in Paris or Kurdistan or anywhere else, you would always be able to return to your USA country of origin.

If Jews persecute, kill or expel Jews in Israel then they call that a civil war. The same for you in America.

You are unable to see the manner in which you insulted me?

I live in America----If I am persecuted here , where do I go to find sanctuary?

 

[ajwps]

You are unable to see the manner in which you insulted me? " Maybe some people are mad at jews because they expect to be able to " go home" when things get bad."

Your statement not only did not make any sense but you made a very racist remark which takes no thought in its structure. The remark that you must have used only one neuron was not name calling or insulting but simply indicated you were not using your brain.

I live in America----If I am persecuted here , where do I go to find sanctuary?

Another non-thought statement! As a majority in your own country you can vote out the government which persecutes you. As a very small minority religion in the USA, persecution (like in the case of the Japanese population in WW2 or the Branch Dividians in Waco Texas) you either get killed by the authorities like the Davidians, Ruby Ridge or put in camps like the WW2 Japanese.

If you feel persecuted you can return to your country of origin like Ireland, England, Germany or from wherever your ancestors left to come to America.

In the case of the Jewish person, where do you go if not Israel? As you see Europe, Asia and most of the world has already decided that Jews are the scapegoat devils of the earth.