Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[Ame®icano]

yep. Henry was a good man in the beginning....his genius was to build a car his workers could buy. His early investors wanted to build cars for the rich and messed him up to the point he hated investors and swore he'd find some who would see his vision....and he did. But this lead to him being a billionaire...one of the few in the world at the time. Edsel pleaded with him to follow the others and let the uaw organize ford, but henry grew more hostile by the year until he finally hired a guy named "harry" somebody or other to crack heads....after they built river rouge, it was a gestapo atmosphere with harry's thugs watching for union organizers and beating senseless anybody who listened to them. Finally it led to gunfire. And retaliation. Ford was unionized, edsel drank himself to death, and henry went mad.

oh, there is a problem... Ford was greedy billionaire.

He made first production line, offered more then double to his workers. It wasn't enough.
Then he introduced 48 hour working week, it wasn't enough. He cut it to 40 hour and it still wasn't enough. Union wanted to get in to make their own rules. They were already in thru "communist party and their sympathizers". He resisted until 1941 when river rouge strike happened. there were fights but was no gunfire.

bullshit.

Educating material

 

[Harry Dresden]

and people like you are the reasons Republicans come off as the heartless basterds the Democrats portray you as......you try to say you care about those people but yet when you talk it comes out....**** EM.....why dont you just be honest and just say you dont give a **** about anyone but your shit dont stink self....at least then i would have a little respect for ya....

No, we just realize that actions have consequences, and consequences should not be bailed out by big daddy government in this case.

you know Marty i have heard that before.....and yet it will still come down to....**** em....you cant say you care about what happens to people and then say who gives a **** about them in the same post.....i was told by many righties here that ..."we are not against Union workers just the Unions".....in that same thread i get called a lowlife ****,get neg repped,told to go **** myself...all because i am Union and a was a federal worker.....but yet i was told that dont happen by those on the right.....

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You look at outsourcing like it's an inevitable and necessary way of doing business. Goody for you and the jap car in your driveway....it was built by your ignorance of your responsibility to your fellow Americans and your near-sighted (read stupid) world-view of how business works. ONLY the USA practices cannibalism on it's own kind....sending their jobs away to some asain mutt who might well be chained to his bench. And you sit here all righteous and proud you ain't in their shoes. Well guess what....Detroit WILL be bailed out partially with your tax dollars, if you still have a job that is, because that's how we do things in America....we look out for each other....so piss and moan about it...who cares?

my F150 just flipped you...

for someone who supposedly reveres Henry Ford who was a capitalist.....you certainly don't seem to support captialism in today's global world.....your terms 'responsibility to your fellow Americans', 'bailout', and 'we look out for each other' are the words of a socialist....

not only have auto capitalists been lowering car prices today (in real terms) but also improving the lives of millions.....as did Henry Ford....
Today?s new vehicles are cheaper and more reliable than ever before in history; the middle class never had it so good | AEIdeas

tariffs may be a partial answer to major change...but in the long run setting the entrepreneur and small businessman free from taxes and regulation strangulation is the real answer to future growth...that would bring tons of business (both foreign and domestic) back to America.....however all those help-each-other 'progressive' policies are clamping down and preventing that....

Of course, but you're still not answering the question...WHO in their right mind wouldn't agree that we're in trade deals so stacked against us we can never compete? I've run successful businesses my whole life and have a degree with minor in economics. There is no good outcome from outsourcing...you're handing your former workers over to a competitor who can out-cheap you. FYI....companies are starting to realize they made a mistake leaving American shores then trying to sell to Americans who lost their jobs because of it. I say give them a little wakey wakey by giving them 180 days to either refurbish and reopen their shuttered American plants, or suffer DEATH TARIFFS and confiscation of any product remaining in the US as contraband. I'd also order the Navy to torpedo any ships from the orient approaching Long Beach, Ca. as a reminder we're not bluffing. Imagine the BOOM such a policy would create....5 or 6 million jobs in a matter of weeks, goods and services suddenly flying off the shelves, a real estate boom, a FLOOD of tax revenue into the empty Social Sercurity and Medicare coffers...Hell, we might even be able to pay a little principal on the debt instead of borrowing to cover the vig. It can happen....imagine it then do it.

that is why we need to bring more business and more free trade to America....that is what will create new jobs.....protectionism goes only so far and is not really the answer....'death' tariffs would only spell our death in the long run...especially in today's modern world......ever wonder why Obama hasn't any new free trade agreements of his own....? (the Columbia, Panama, and South Korea agreements were started under Bush) ...those agreements support tens of thousands of jobs and boost our exports....the antithesis of what BO really has in mind for America....

we need to set free the trading and creativity of America....this can only be done in a free market capitalist society without suffocating taxes and regulations.....we need to get rid of the socialists and marxist politicians like Obama and most of the Dimwit party....

 

[Vox]

I know whats going to happen. Obama will float Detroit a loan hoping it will be enough to hold its fall till after 2014. I also know that these men and women retired will now be fucked royally. I also know many libertarians and so called conservatives are taking glee in this. WTF is wrong with you people? You might not like the deal but is it worth losing your honor over? You all sound like a bunch of whiny progressives pointing fingers screaming " it isnt my problem He did it!!" If I could financially help these people I would......I dont even ******* live there anymore.... Do you know why? Because they will be AMERICANS in need. I sure as **** wont be laughing in there face telling them they deserved it.

So you think it is FAIR to demand from all Americans to pay for the Cadillac pensions they have not agreed upon?
I got news for you - Americans don't thjnk so.

I am willing to let them have 17% of those. Together with SS it is enough.

 

[martybegan]

and people like you are the reasons Republicans come off as the heartless basterds the Democrats portray you as......you try to say you care about those people but yet when you talk it comes out....**** EM.....why dont you just be honest and just say you dont give a **** about anyone but your shit dont stink self....at least then i would have a little respect for ya....

No, we just realize that actions have consequences, and consequences should not be bailed out by big daddy government in this case.

you know Marty i have heard that before.....and yet it will still come down to....**** em....you cant say you care about what happens to people and then say who gives a **** about them in the same post.....i was told by many righties here that ..."we are not against Union workers just the Unions".....in that same thread i get called a lowlife ****,get neg repped,told to go **** myself...all because i am Union and a was a federal worker.....but yet i was told that dont happen by those on the right.....

So the alternative is bail thier asses out, thus rewarding poor behavior in the past, and setting a precedent that municipalites dont have to budget thier spending, because someone else will be around to pay the bills.

Public unions did this to the retirements of many public workers, in collusion with the political class. When the money isnt there, what is supposed to happen? The money fairy is supposed to come down and save all the peoples?

Making people face reality is not saying "**** em." Making me pay for the promises of others telling ME to go **** myself.

 

[Harry Dresden]

and people like you are the reasons Republicans come off as the heartless basterds the Democrats portray you as......you try to say you care about those people but yet when you talk it comes out....**** EM.....why dont you just be honest and just say you dont give a **** about anyone but your shit dont stink self....at least then i would have a little respect for ya....

Where did I ever say I care about those people?

Read my posts, moron. I couldn't give a **** less about those thieving dirtbags.

I've said it time and again; they aren't victims, they're accomplices, co-conspirators, they drove the get-away car while the dimocrap scum politicians and the Union thugs were robbing the hard-working people of Dee-Troit blind.

Their payoff was in the form of bloated paychecks and ridiculous pensions and benefits.

As to caring about myself? Yes, but not enough to STEAL from hard-working Americans.

That is what dimorap scum do. They steal money from people who work for it and give it to people who vote dimocrap.

Like you. Which part of the gubmint teat are you suckling from?

see this is what i was talking about Marty right here......"oh no Harry....we on the right care about people and what happens to them....we just think Unions this and Unions that".....and then along comes someone like Miss Priss here who thinks her shit dont stink......Republicans will always have a problem as long as they let people like this ancient retired ***** here speak .......Dean is actually right about many on the right....Miss my shit dont stink is one of them.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Syrenn as far as i am concerned when you are 20 years old and you land a great job with a PENSION.....and here it is 30-40 years later and you are thinking about that retirement that you contributed too.....you get it.....i thing i have noticed is ....no one seems to give a flying ****....of course until they are the one whose pension is being pulled.....then all of a sudden,it makes a difference.....maybe everyone should just work until you drop dead on the job,throw your carcass in a pit and grab the next 20 year old to do it again....

Sounds a lot like Social Security.

With the notable exception that you are forced by law to pay into SS.

not everyone.....

 

[martybegan]

and people like you are the reasons Republicans come off as the heartless basterds the Democrats portray you as......you try to say you care about those people but yet when you talk it comes out....**** EM.....why dont you just be honest and just say you dont give a **** about anyone but your shit dont stink self....at least then i would have a little respect for ya....

Where did I ever say I care about those people?

Read my posts, moron. I couldn't give a **** less about those thieving dirtbags.

I've said it time and again; they aren't victims, they're accomplices, co-conspirators, they drove the get-away car while the dimocrap scum politicians and the Union thugs were robbing the hard-working people of Dee-Troit blind.

Their payoff was in the form of bloated paychecks and ridiculous pensions and benefits.

As to caring about myself? Yes, but not enough to STEAL from hard-working Americans.

That is what dimorap scum do. They steal money from people who work for it and give it to people who vote dimocrap.

Like you. Which part of the gubmint teat are you suckling from?

see this is what i was talking about Marty right here......"oh no Harry....we on the right care about people and what happens to them....we just think Unions this and Unions that".....and then along comes someone like Miss Priss here who thinks her shit dont stink......Republicans will always have a problem as long as they let people like this ancient retired ***** here speak .......Dean is actually right about many on the right....Miss my shit dont stink is one of them.....

So even if polticians are ******* people over, as long as they are "nice" about it, everything is hunky dory?

That is what got the public union workers in this trouble in the first place.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Steal what union wages ??
the wages the unions bargained for on behalf of their members from the company is a agreement between them and the company .

if i go to work for a auto maker and they offer me a wage (whether if be the same or more than the union dickheads get ) thats between me and the company not the unions business .
trouble with the unions is they think they own ..
i have a RIGHT to bargain for my own wage/ benefits

so if a company has 20,000 employees the company has to sit down with 20,000 individuals and have 20,000 individual contracts?....

Yes... Thats why they have HR departments.

20 thousand individual contracts.....sounds like a lot of office workers and a lot of paper work......kind of like Government.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Hey, if they aren't willing to help their city out of the doldrums... what else do I call it Harry? If they are unwilling to make some sort of sacrifice to save the city they worked for, then what is it called? Greed and avarice. There is no other way to describe it. Okay, let me put it more succinctly.

My Grandmother is a retiree. She worked at UGA fron 1969 to 2003. Thirty-four years. She has a pension. BUT, she is and has made it clear that she would be willing to take a hit if the city she lived in were bankrupt and needed some way of recovering from it. I know, I know, a retiree should not have to pay for the mistakes of the city.

But something has to give correct? Either the city collapses under its own debt or you agree to take a cut in your pension check. Your city is $18 billion underwater. What about the other people who live there? Should they have to suffer for your unwillingness to compromise? Those are hard questions, and I know you have to live on that check. But the future of your home, your community, and your city depend on it (in this fictional scenario at least). Why such a terse reaction to such a sacrifice? Would you be willing to help pull your city out of the grave?

A man can take a bullet for his country, or for his family, but he he won't take a hit in his pension to save his hometown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is incredibly sad.

some retirees are finding it hard to survive now....so lets make it harder for them....and then they go get some kind of aide and you are paying for them anyway....so how are you saving money?.........and another question.....are the politicians losing their pension as well?....or did they put some kind of clause in that makes them immune to this kind of shit?......

Yes, some retirees like my grandmother barely get by. But instead of making the situation worse by being unforgiving and unyielding, she would rather have some pension than none at all. If the city loses the ability to pay your pension, who's fault would that be exactly? Yes, politicians didn't really help the situation, but there has to be some give and take. If you are so unwilling to make some sort of change in the wallet, you may have helped sign your death warrant, as well as that of your payer. So ask yourself, would you rather make do with less, or make do without?

so if they go on some kind of tax payer supported aide you are still paying out for them......and you did not answer my question about the politicians and their pensions......

 

[thanatos144]

I know whats going to happen. Obama will float Detroit a loan hoping it will be enough to hold its fall till after 2014. I also know that these men and women retired will now be fucked royally. I also know many libertarians and so called conservatives are taking glee in this. WTF is wrong with you people? You might not like the deal but is it worth losing your honor over? You all sound like a bunch of whiny progressives pointing fingers screaming " it isnt my problem He did it!!" If I could financially help these people I would......I dont even ******* live there anymore.... Do you know why? Because they will be AMERICANS in need. I sure as **** wont be laughing in there face telling them they deserved it.

So you think it is FAIR to demand from all Americans to pay for the Cadillac pensions they have not agreed upon?
I got news for you - Americans don't thjnk so.

I am willing to let them have 17% of those. Together with SS it is enough.

I expect that we as Americans do whats right.

 

[Harry Dresden]

No, we just realize that actions have consequences, and consequences should not be bailed out by big daddy government in this case.

you know Marty i have heard that before.....and yet it will still come down to....**** em....you cant say you care about what happens to people and then say who gives a **** about them in the same post.....i was told by many righties here that ..."we are not against Union workers just the Unions".....in that same thread i get called a lowlife ****,get neg repped,told to go **** myself...all because i am Union and a was a federal worker.....but yet i was told that dont happen by those on the right.....

So the alternative is bail thier asses out, thus rewarding poor behavior in the past, and setting a precedent that municipalites dont have to budget thier spending, because someone else will be around to pay the bills.

Public unions did this to the retirements of many public workers, in collusion with the political class. When the money isnt there, what is supposed to happen? The money fairy is supposed to come down and save all the peoples?

Making people face reality is not saying "**** em." Making me pay for the promises of others telling ME to go **** myself.

Marty my basic question is...... so what about those in their 60's and 70's who may not have a pension now?....more people now on relief?.....the tax payer pays that...

 

[thanatos144]

No, we just realize that actions have consequences, and consequences should not be bailed out by big daddy government in this case.

you know Marty i have heard that before.....and yet it will still come down to....**** em....you cant say you care about what happens to people and then say who gives a **** about them in the same post.....i was told by many righties here that ..."we are not against Union workers just the Unions".....in that same thread i get called a lowlife ****,get neg repped,told to go **** myself...all because i am Union and a was a federal worker.....but yet i was told that dont happen by those on the right.....

So the alternative is bail thier asses out, thus rewarding poor behavior in the past, and setting a precedent that municipalites dont have to budget thier spending, because someone else will be around to pay the bills.

Public unions did this to the retirements of many public workers, in collusion with the political class. When the money isnt there, what is supposed to happen? The money fairy is supposed to come down and save all the peoples?

Making people face reality is not saying "**** em." Making me pay for the promises of others telling ME to go **** myself.

Do you think they wont?????? All they will need to do is show old women eating Cat food. Public unions are a bad idea yes. Making it impossible to attract good people to be civil servants is just as stupid as well.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

"A Deal is a Deal".

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

The principal that contracts must be honored is a cornerstone of any free enterprise system.

It's incredible that conservatives believe the very principals that make capitalism possible are not applicable to working class people.

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

Great idea. With what money?

 

[martybegan]

you know Marty i have heard that before.....and yet it will still come down to....**** em....you cant say you care about what happens to people and then say who gives a **** about them in the same post.....i was told by many righties here that ..."we are not against Union workers just the Unions".....in that same thread i get called a lowlife ****,get neg repped,told to go **** myself...all because i am Union and a was a federal worker.....but yet i was told that dont happen by those on the right.....

So the alternative is bail thier asses out, thus rewarding poor behavior in the past, and setting a precedent that municipalites dont have to budget thier spending, because someone else will be around to pay the bills.

Public unions did this to the retirements of many public workers, in collusion with the political class. When the money isnt there, what is supposed to happen? The money fairy is supposed to come down and save all the peoples?

Making people face reality is not saying "**** em." Making me pay for the promises of others telling ME to go **** myself.

Do you think they wont?????? All they will need to do is show old women eating Cat food. Public unions are a bad idea yes. Making it impossible to attract good people to be civil servants is just as stupid as well.

This has nothing to do with current civil servants, who's retirements should all be turned into 401k style programs. It has to do with no money availible for past retirees because of collusion between the unions and the politicans.

Emotion should have nothing to do with this (but it will, because people are mushy idiots)

 

[Mr Natural]

"A Deal is a Deal".

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

The principal that contracts must be honored is a cornerstone of any free enterprise system.

It's incredible that conservatives believe the very principals that make capitalism possible are not applicable to working class people.

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

Great idea. With what money?

If we could piss away a trillion dollars on the Iraq Fiasco, we can find the money to bail out one of our own cities.

 

[thanatos144]

So the alternative is bail thier asses out, thus rewarding poor behavior in the past, and setting a precedent that municipalites dont have to budget thier spending, because someone else will be around to pay the bills.

Public unions did this to the retirements of many public workers, in collusion with the political class. When the money isnt there, what is supposed to happen? The money fairy is supposed to come down and save all the peoples?

Making people face reality is not saying "**** em." Making me pay for the promises of others telling ME to go **** myself.

Do you think they wont?????? All they will need to do is show old women eating Cat food. Public unions are a bad idea yes. Making it impossible to attract good people to be civil servants is just as stupid as well.

This has nothing to do with current civil servants, who's retirements should all be turned into 401k style programs. It has to do with no money availible for past retirees because of collusion between the unions and the politicans.

Emotion should have nothing to do with this (but it will, because people are mushy idiots)

So you want to change pensions of people already getting it? I weep for our country that we are so selfish that our word means shit to people like you.

 

[thanatos144]

"A Deal is a Deal".

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

The principal that contracts must be honored is a cornerstone of any free enterprise system.

It's incredible that conservatives believe the very principals that make capitalism possible are not applicable to working class people.

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

Great idea. With what money?

If we could piss away a trillion dollars on the Iraq Fiasco, we can find the money to bail out one of our own cities.

Bullshit. You cant equate one with the other... One is federal the other municipal.... Learn how our country works for ***** sake!

 

[JoeBlam]

That's it....I've said my piece about my Hometown and I'm done with it and the jackasses here who are braying about a city they never lived in, know nothing about, and are just revealing their own racism and false sense of superiority. I'm pulling my dog outta this fight....he's chewed on the curs long enough and I'm worried he'll lose his edge for when he has to fight some wolves....

[ame=http://youtu.be/jrXP5zoFxss]Bugger Off - Lyrics , - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Avatar4321]

If the city of Detroit made an employment agreement with these workers that guaranteed a certain pension, then the city should not be allowed to welch on that deal.

Great idea. With what money?

If we could piss away a trillion dollars on the Iraq Fiasco, we can find the money to bail out one of our own cities.

Bullshit. You cant equate one with the other... One is federal the other municipal.... Learn how our country works for ***** sake!

You expect someone to educate themselves on the scope and jurisdiction of our government? It be nice if he did, but seriously, if he did he would have stopped being progressive years ago