Sexual Harrassment - what is it and what isn't it?

[JimBowie1958]

But it has always been my feelings that men and women, and just people in general have different skill sets that can be utilized towards the same goal. If a woman can physically keep up with the training, why should they not be allowed?
There are plenty of women that are big and strong and plenty of men that are frail and weak. Gender is a social construct.

Because the guys will be fighting over the few women in their unit and this destroys 'unit cohesiveness' i.e. the guys willingness to bleed for each other in combat.

This is all very predictable and not the first time it has been done.

 

[JimBowie1958]

This is why I hate third wave feminism as it hurts everything women have gained over the past century.

Glad you caught your slip up.

"Third World', lol, good on you bro.

 

[Aries]

But it has always been my feelings that men and women, and just people in general have different skill sets that can be utilized towards the same goal. If a woman can physically keep up with the training, why should they not be allowed?
There are plenty of women that are big and strong and plenty of men that are frail and weak. Gender is a social construct.

Because the guys will be fighting over the few women in their unit and this destroys 'unit cohesiveness' i.e. the guys will to bleed for each other in combat.

This is all very predictable and not the first time it has been done.

So men can’t effectively do their jobs with women around distracting them?
Why does that not carry over into the police force, fire fighters, doctors etc.?

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

We've reached a rather dangerous tipping point...and I don't know where it will go or how we should handle it.

It's a fact that women endure a great deal of harrassment from men. Over Thanksgiving, my mother told me some of what she had to put up with as a professional woman scientists in a male dominated profession. I'm sure that is not unique.

It seems that Weinstein finally provided the tipping point for women to speak up about it. That for once they can without having their reputations trashed as sluts.

But it also seems that there is a rush - people are being fired rapidly, based on accusation, with little recourse to a defense. It's possible we simply don't hear the whole story...I'm not so sure about this rush to judgement.

I also think that people are lumping everything into the "sexual assault" category when it might not be.

There is a difference between a wolf whistle on the street corner and grabbing a woman's bum. There is a difference between grabbing a woman's bum and forceably kissing her. And there is a difference between forceably kissing her and raping her. They shouldn't all be treated the same.

There is the expectation of a certain professional code of conduct in the workplace - and there should be well established rules and a means of redress when boundaries are crossed. But I have to wonder - will men now be afraid to put a comforting arm around an upset woman? Provide a compliment on how she looks?

It's a bit of a Pandora's box...that needed to be opened, because women were silenced and shamed for so long...yet, there is more than we can handle there.

I need a lawyer to say hello to a beautiful woman, so it has gone too far...

What I wrote will get a chuckle but I refuse to hug a woman unless I knew her since I was a kid because you never know if someone take offense to an innocent hug...

For being a man it is impossible in today time and sooner or later too many will claim sexual harassment and some will be lying and hurt the actual victims...

 

[JimBowie1958]

So men can’t effectively do their jobs with women around distracting them?
Why does that not carry over into the police force, fire fighters, doctors etc.?

Who says it doesnt?

But for firemen and police it wont get them all killed, now will it?

Combat line units are not a place for the 'fairer sex'. Not so much for anything lacking in women so much as what is lacking in high testosterone men; self-control and some clearer morals.

 

[Michelle420]

We've reached a rather dangerous tipping point...and I don't know where it will go or how we should handle it.

It's a fact that women endure a great deal of harrassment from men. Over Thanksgiving, my mother told me some of what she had to put up with as a professional woman scientists in a male dominated profession. I'm sure that is not unique.

It seems that Weinstein finally provided the tipping point for women to speak up about it. That for once they can without having their reputations trashed as sluts.

But it also seems that there is a rush - people are being fired rapidly, based on accusation, with little recourse to a defense. It's possible we simply don't hear the whole story...I'm not so sure about this rush to judgement.

I also think that people are lumping everything into the "sexual assault" category when it might not be.

There is a difference between a wolf whistle on the street corner and grabbing a woman's bum. There is a difference between grabbing a woman's bum and forceably kissing her. And there is a difference between forceably kissing her and raping her. They shouldn't all be treated the same.

There is the expectation of a certain professional code of conduct in the workplace - and there should be well established rules and a means of redress when boundaries are crossed. But I have to wonder - will men now be afraid to put a comforting arm around an upset woman? Provide a compliment on how she looks?

It's a bit of a Pandora's box...that needed to be opened, because women were silenced and shamed for so long...yet, there is more than we can handle there.

At work don't care if a man hesitates to wrap a comforting arm around me. Don't care if a man compliments my at work either.

My interpretation of “don’t care” is that it is okay if he does and okay if he doesn’t...... you don’t care either way. But I don’t think that is what you mean by “don’t care”.

I don't care if "he hesitates" as long as he doesn't harass me.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

But it has always been my feelings that men and women, and just people in general have different skill sets that can be utilized towards the same goal. If a woman can physically keep up with the training, why should they not be allowed?
There are plenty of women that are big and strong and plenty of men that are frail and weak. Gender is a social construct.

Because the guys will be fighting over the few women in their unit and this destroys 'unit cohesiveness' i.e. the guys will to bleed for each other in combat.

This is all very predictable and not the first time it has been done.

So men can’t effectively do their jobs with women around distracting them?
Why does that not carry over into the police force, fire fighters, doctors etc.?

Have you ever work in a medical office?

I know too many Doctors that have played with their female staff...

 

[Aries]

So men can’t effectively do their jobs with women around distracting them?
Why does that not carry over into the police force, fire fighters, doctors etc.?

Who says it doesnt?

But for firemen and police it wont get them all killed, now will it?

Combat line units are not a place for the 'fairer sex'. Not so much for anything lacking in women so much as what is lacking in high testosterone men; self-control and some clearer morals.

I disagree. Work place lust can most certainly get a cop or firefighter killed just as easily as a soldier. They are in life or death situations and your suggesting women cloud judgement. Clear judgement is just as necessary for the safety of our police as it is for our soldiers.

Your suggestion would rule women out of participating in any type of professional that presents danger.

 

[BlackSand]

.​

“A wise woman puts a grain of sugar in everything she says to a man,
and takes a grain of salt with everything he says to her.” ~ Helen Rowland

“Miscommunication is endless.” ~ JP Rattie

“Basically, all women are nurturers and healers,
and all men are mental patients to varying degrees.” ~ Nelson DeMille


“She's a woman, you're a dude.
You're not supposed to understand her.
That's not what she's after.... She doesn't want you to understand her.
She knows that's impossible.
She just wants you to understand yourself.
Everything else is negotiable.” ~ Neal Stephenson










"... if I am a pirate, he has to be the pirate Captain,
if I am a pirate Captain he has to be the flying dragon.” ~ C. JoyBell C.​

.​

 

[JimBowie1958]

I disagree. Work place lust can most certainly get a cop or firefighter killed just as easily as a soldier.

You admit to having no military experience and yet insist that being a cop is just as dangerous as being in a line combat unit.

lol, OK, dear, whatever you say

 

[Coyote]

But it has always been my feelings that men and women, and just people in general have different skill sets that can be utilized towards the same goal. If a woman can physically keep up with the training, why should they not be allowed?
There are plenty of women that are big and strong and plenty of men that are frail and weak. Gender is a social construct.

Because the guys will be fighting over the few women in their unit and this destroys 'unit cohesiveness' i.e. the guys willingness to bleed for each other in combat.

This is all very predictable and not the first time it has been done.

That doesn't seem to be what is happening though. The US military has been very cautious and careful in adding women into the ranks and things like "unit cohesiveness" were one of the things they were concerned about. Women in the military is not new. Israel has a top notch military and they've had women in combat roles for years.

 

[Aries]

I disagree. Work place lust can most certainly get a cop or firefighter killed just as easily as a soldier.

You admit to having no military experience and yet insist that being a cop is just as dangerous as being in a line combat unit.

lol, OK, dear, whatever you say

I never inferred one was more dangerous than the other I insist that both require clear judgement to survive. Is this wrong?

 

[JimBowie1958]

But it has always been my feelings that men and women, and just people in general have different skill sets that can be utilized towards the same goal. If a woman can physically keep up with the training, why should they not be allowed?
There are plenty of women that are big and strong and plenty of men that are frail and weak. Gender is a social construct.

Because the guys will be fighting over the few women in their unit and this destroys 'unit cohesiveness' i.e. the guys willingness to bleed for each other in combat.

This is all very predictable and not the first time it has been done.

That doesn't seem to be what is happening though. The US military has been very cautious and careful in adding women into the ranks and things like "unit cohesiveness" were one of the things they were concerned about. Women in the military is not new. Israel has a top notch military and they've had women in combat roles for years.

The Isrealis have kept most of their combat women in reserve units and militia type outfits that are a kind of last line sort of thing.

If I lived in a tiny nation like Isreal surrounded by a billion Muslims who hated my mere existence, I would have the kids packing heat.

 

[saveliberty]

Well, you know it was sexual harassment when years later, you get fired.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I never inferred one was more dangerous than the other I insist that both require clear judgement to survive. Is this wrong?

No, you are not wrong.

But if you said that that was the sole and sufficient causal link to the whole matter under consideration then you would be wrong.

 

[Aries]

I never inferred one was more dangerous than the other I insist that both require clear judgement to survive. Is this wrong?

No, you are not wrong.

But if you said that that was the sole and sufficient causal link to the whole matter under consideration then you would be wrong.

You are the one providing the the examples of why women don’t belong in combat. That’s the only reason you’ve provide. Provide another and I’ll refute that too.

 

[JimBowie1958]

But it has always been my feelings that men and women, and just people in general have different skill sets that can be utilized towards the same goal. If a woman can physically keep up with the training, why should they not be allowed?
There are plenty of women that are big and strong and plenty of men that are frail and weak. Gender is a social construct.

Because the guys will be fighting over the few women in their unit and this destroys 'unit cohesiveness' i.e. the guys willingness to bleed for each other in combat.

This is all very predictable and not the first time it has been done.

That doesn't seem to be what is happening though. The US military has been very cautious and careful in adding women into the ranks and things like "unit cohesiveness" were one of the things they were concerned about. Women in the military is not new. Israel has a top notch military and they've had women in combat roles for years.

The Isrealis have kept most of their combat women in reserve units and militia type outfits that are a kind of last line sort of thing.

If I lived in a tiny nation like Isreal surrounded by a billion Muslims who hated my mere existence, I would have the kids packing heat.

Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia

Israel is one of only a few nations that conscript women or deploy them in combat roles, although in practice, women can avoid conscription through a religious exemption and over a third of Israeli women do so.[25] As of 2010, 88% of all roles in the IDF are open to female candidates. and women could be found in 69% of all IDF positions.[26]

According to the IDF, 535 female Israeli soldiers were killed in combat operations in the period 1962–2016,[27]and dozens before then. The IDF says that fewer than 4 percent of women are in combat positions. Rather, they are concentrated in "combat-support" positions which command a lower compensation and status than combat positions.[28]

Civilian pilot and aeronautical engineer Alice Miller successfully petitioned the High Court of Justice to take the Israeli Air Force pilot training exams, after being rejected on grounds of gender. Though president Ezer Weizman, a former IAF commander, told Miller that she would be better off staying home and darning socks, the court eventually ruled in 1996 that the IAF could not exclude qualified women from pilot training. Even though Miller would not pass the exams, the ruling was a watershed, opening doors for women in new IDF roles. Female legislators took advantage of the momentum to draft a bill allowing women to volunteer for any position, if they could qualify.[29]

In 2000 the Equality amendment to the Military Service law stated that the right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men.[30] A study of women in the IDF from 2002 to 2005 found that women often exhibit "superior skills" in discipline, motivation and marksmanship. However, the study noted that women still face gender discrimination in the IDF.[31] Women have served in the military since before the founding of the state of Israel in 1948.[32] Women started to enter combat support and light combat roles in a few areas, including the Artillery Corps, infantry units and armored divisions. A few platoons named Karakal were formed for men and women to serve together in light infantry. By 2000 Karakal became a full-fledged battalion, with a second mixed-gender battalion, Lions of the Jordan (אריות הירדן, Arayot Ha-Yarden) formed in 2015. Many women also joined the Border Police.[29]​

In June 2011 Maj. General Orna Barbivai became the first female major general in the IDF, replacing head of the directorate Maj. General Avi Zamir. Barbivai stated, "I am proud to be the first woman to become a major general and to be part of an organization in which equality is a central principle. Ninety percent of jobs in the IDF are open to women and I am sure that there are other women who will continue to break down barriers."
​

Two mixed gender battalions does not an army make.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You are the one providing the the examples of why women don’t belong in combat. That’s the only reason you’ve provide. Provide another and I’ll refute that too.

You havent refuted anything, dudete.

 

[BoSoxGal]

A few thoughts:

The workplace is not a criminal court and employees are not subject to presumption of innocence or any of the protections afforded a criminal defendant - because losing a job is in no way equivalent to losing liberty and being convicted for all time of a serious criminal offense.

Most employer/employee contracts include morals clauses, especially in the entertainment industry. If by a preponderance of evidence an employer finds an employee has violated that clause, the employee can be fired. Period. Please understand that these employers are being advised by very knowledgeable and experienced employment attorneys.

As to the what is and isn’t sexual harassment: fundamentally in terms of the workplace that’s a legal question and it runs the gamut from demands for sex to sexual comments and includes many other other manifestations of a hostile workplace.

But as to specifics raised in the OP; there is no need for a male coworker or supervisor to put an arm around a female coworker or subordinate in order to properly express compassion. There is no need to comment on the appearance of female coworkers or employees - certainly not unless you would do and say exactly the same toward a male coworker or supervisee, which is just about never the case.

People can twist it into making the workplace ‘no fun’ or ‘depersonalized,’ but I call bullshit; I’ve been in the professional workplace for 32 years now, a very wide range of jobs, and I’ve had both male and female supervisors and based on my experience it’s just not necessary to cry wolf about this because it’s VERY easy to behave appropriately - these men who are being outted behaved VERY inappropriately, there is no question about that, they’ve just gotten away with it because their victims were afraid of losing their jobs or careers by speaking up and I think it’s wonderful that the pendulum has swung such that now HR departments are more concerned about public backlash if they don’t hold offenders accountable than they used to be about protecting the offenders.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

This is the way I see it.

"Sexual harassment" is defined not by actions, but by context.

Needless to say, what is appropriate behavior at home with your significant other is not necessarily appropriate at work - but what I mean by context is more inclusive.

Let's say you're at work, and you're hitting it off really well with one of your co-workers. One day after work, you both end up at a bar for a celebration of some kind, maybe a co-workers birthday, or a Christmas party or whatever. You spend the evening talking and flirting - she laughs heartily at your jokes and touches your hand. You guys stay till the bar closes, and when you guys are standing outside waiting for an uber, you lean in for a kiss.

Now, I'm going to re-work that hypothetical.

Let's say you're at work, and you've got a huge crush on one of your co-workers. Every time you see that person in the coffee room, you try to stroke up a conversation, but it never seems to work. Every time, she appears uncomfortable and awkward, and you feel the same way. One day, you hear about an office party after work, and think "there's my chance". You ask the girl if she s going to come - maybe even pressure her to come. When you guys are at the bar, you try to monopolize her time, keep buying her drinks and flirting with her. She laughs at some of your jokes, but it's a hollow laugh, and she keeps looking around, as if she's looking for someone. Finally, she says she has to go home. You offer to leave with her - and while you're both waiting for an uber, you lean over and stick your tongue down her throat.

Explicitly, both of the those narratives are the same. The same primary physical events occurred.

One is appropriate, one is not. I met my girlfriend of 8 years in essentailly that situation.

The difference is in the context - the implicit facts of the situation.

In our culture, it is generally the role of the man to make the first "move". Because of that, it's the responsibility of the man to read the situation correctly - and if you misread it, know how to extract yourself gracefully. With great power comes great responsibility.