Sexual Harrassment - what is it and what isn't it?

[MarathonMike]

Yes there is a big danger here in that the law is so vague and puts so much power in the hands of the woman accuser. It almost reverses the 'Innocent until proven Guilty' paradigm.

My feelings are mixed on this as well.

Because women making those accusations are automatically assumed to be liars or worse if they speak up. So they don't.

Sure, there has always been the presumption that the woman "asked for it" in some way or is looking to cash in. The most tragic examples of that were the rape and misconduct victims of Bill Clinton. I always thought it was so ironic that the one woman (Monica) who apparently invited Bill Clinton's sexual advances was the one who got him Impeached.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It's not a new problem. I was coming of age in the late 80's, early 90's, and PC culture was already well-established when it came to sexual harassment. The Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings were the first manifestation of it.

I was just a high school kid working an evening job as a restaurant hostess back then, but I'll always remember one night in the break area when one of the prep cooks complimented my hairstyle. Even though I thanked him earnestly (I had worked on it, after all), his face quickly took on a haunted aspect, reflecting his inner thoughts. Then he looked at me cautiously and said he was sorry that he spoke without thinking, and that he didn't mean to make me uncomfortable if he had, indeed, done that.

I was horrified. For him. This poor guy, just another kid my age, had paid me a compliment, and then an instant later had been seized by dreadful visions of the manager firing him for making unwanted advances on a female co-worker.

That was the incident that made me realize I could no longer call myself a feminist - at least, not a feminist by contemporary standards. From its seat in the metropolitan bastions of social influence, the womens' movement wasn't promoting equality, it was threatening persecution and instilling fear... a very well-founded fear. If I'd had the mind to, I could have complained in melodramatic fashion about that boy's compliment and watched as he was fired.

It reminded me of The Crucible.

Something was really wrong.

And it still is. What's new is that it's coming back to haunt the left. They were fine with it up until now.

Damned good post....ooops, hope I didnt offend you with my course language there.



Edit: on second thought, your avatar is making me uncomfortable with a 'come hither look'.

You need to change that promptly before I get triggered and ...nm

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sure, there has always been the presumption that the woman "asked for it" in some way or is looking to cash in. The most tragic examples of that were the rape and misconduct victims of Bill Clinton. I always thought it was so ironic that the one woman (Monica) who apparently invited Bill Clinton's sexual advances was the one who got him Impeached.

Monica did not get Bill impeached.

His PERJURY got him impeached.

He should not have lied about something so silly and LEGAL.

 

[Natural Citizen]

As long as we don't see a concerted effort in the mainstream media and blogosphere to attack masculinity itself, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Markle]

why don’t women “belong” in the military? Do they also not belong in the workplace? Or out in public without a male relative escort?

Women belong in the military but not in combat roles or mixed with the men. We should go back to have separate corps for men and women.

The only way this does NOT make sense is if someone does not understand the difference between men and women.

 

[Markle]

Gender is a social construct.

That's just nuts.

A social construction, or social construct or a social concept is an invention or artifact of a particular culture or society which exists solely because people agree to behave as if it exists, or agree to follow certain conventional rules.

social construct. - Bing

 

[Markle]

So men can’t effectively do their jobs with women around distracting them?
Why does that not carry over into the police force, fire fighters, doctors etc.?

Trying to compare apples with avocados?

IF men and women have exactly the same standards in the police and fire department, I have no problem. Just so the standards are not reduced to let women join. Obviously, they are not. That places them, their fellow officers and the public in danger.

I've not ever seen a doctor having to carry a person down a flight of stairs or break up a fight between a couple of drunks.

Years ago I was stopped for a broken tail/brake light. The woman could not have stood a chance with me. She was no more than 5'5" and a little husky. I'm a Vietnam Vet, 6'3" about 220# at the time, I raced Enduro's and motocross, lifted weights since I was about 16. I was very friendly with her but if I had other intentions, she'd never have had a chance to get out her gun. I also had a gun in the car which I told her about as soon as she reached my window.

IF you believe in women in combat, please watch some of the documentaries on WW-II on Netflix or Amazon. Amazon Prime has an excellent series: "The War - A Film By Ken Burns and Lynn Novick
The War - A Film By Ken Burns and Lynn Novick

Watch that series and tell me if women belong in combat. The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things. Frequently in conditions and surroundings unimaginable to a civilian. To have a woman in those conditions, like it or not, will cause another soldier to hesitate a heartbeat or make a mistake by trying to help where there would not have with a man.

 

[yiostheoy]

So men can’t effectively do their jobs with women around distracting them?
Why does that not carry over into the police force, fire fighters, doctors etc.?

Trying to compare apples with avocados?

IF men and women have exactly the same standards in the police and fire department, I have no problem. Just so the standards are not reduced to let women join. Obviously, they are not. That places them, their fellow officers and the public in danger.

I've not ever seen a doctor having to carry a person down a flight of stairs or break up a fight between a couple of drunks.

Years ago I was stopped for a broken tail/brake light. The woman could not have stood a chance with me. She was no more than 5'5" and a little husky. I'm a Vietnam Vet, 6'3" about 220# at the time, I raced Enduro's and motocross, lifted weights since I was about 16. I was very friendly with her but if I had other intentions, she'd never have had a chance to get out her gun. I also had a gun in the car which I told her about as soon as she reached my window.

It's not the woman.

It's her Glock.

 

[yiostheoy]

It's not a new problem. I was coming of age in the late 80's, early 90's, and PC culture was already well-established when it came to sexual harassment. The Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings were the first manifestation of it.

I was just a high school kid working an evening job as a restaurant hostess back then, but I'll always remember one night in the break area when one of the prep cooks complimented my hairstyle. Even though I thanked him earnestly (I had worked on it, after all), his face quickly took on a haunted aspect, reflecting his inner thoughts. Then he looked at me cautiously and said he was sorry that he spoke without thinking, and that he didn't mean to make me uncomfortable if he had, indeed, done that.

I was horrified. For him. This poor guy, just another kid my age, had paid me a compliment, and then an instant later had been seized by dreadful visions of the manager firing him for making unwanted advances on a female co-worker.

That was the incident that made me realize I could no longer call myself a feminist - at least, not a feminist by contemporary standards. From its seat in the metropolitan bastions of social influence, the womens' movement wasn't promoting equality, it was threatening persecution and instilling fear... a very well-founded fear. If I'd had the mind to, I could have complained in melodramatic fashion about that boy's compliment and watched as he was fired.

It reminded me of The Crucible.

Something was really wrong.

And it still is. What's new is that it's coming back to haunt the left. They were fine with it up until now.

Anita Hill was a major turning point in American history, yes.

I recall listening to the hearings and thinking how trivial all her material was.

 

[Alexandra]

It's not a new problem. I was coming of age in the late 80's, early 90's, and PC culture was already well-established when it came to sexual harassment. The Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings were the first manifestation of it.

I was just a high school kid working an evening job as a restaurant hostess back then, but I'll always remember one night in the break area when one of the prep cooks complimented my hairstyle. Even though I thanked him earnestly (I had worked on it, after all), his face quickly took on a haunted aspect, reflecting his inner thoughts. Then he looked at me cautiously and said he was sorry that he spoke without thinking, and that he didn't mean to make me uncomfortable if he had, indeed, done that.

I was horrified. For him. This poor guy, just another kid my age, had paid me a compliment, and then an instant later had been seized by dreadful visions of the manager firing him for making unwanted advances on a female co-worker.

That was the incident that made me realize I could no longer call myself a feminist - at least, not a feminist by contemporary standards. From its seat in the metropolitan bastions of social influence, the womens' movement wasn't promoting equality, it was threatening persecution and instilling fear... a very well-founded fear. If I'd had the mind to, I could have complained in melodramatic fashion about that boy's compliment and watched as he was fired.

It reminded me of The Crucible.

Something was really wrong.

And it still is. What's new is that it's coming back to haunt the left. They were fine with it up until now.

Anita Hill was a major turning point in American history, yes.

I recall listening to the hearings and thinking how trivial all her material was.

I don't remember her testimony, oddly enough. The witness that sticks with me after all these years is John Doggett (sp?). He was really pissed off, and said as much. I remember being both surprised and impressed by his outrage as the inquisitors were telling him to calm down. "No, god damn it, I'm pissed off!" he'd replied. I don't think anyone had ever uttered that phrase in a televised congressional hearing before.

 

[Dale Smith]

I have worked around women my entire career and have NEVER been accused of harassing a woman or using my authority over them to finagle sexual favors. Those being accused have proof against them. "He said, she said" doesn't work not even in the admiralty courts. Accusations can be made against anyone but the burden of proof is on the plaintiff and the defendant gets the opportunity to confront/ face off against his/her accusers.

 

[flacaltenn]

We've reached a rather dangerous tipping point...and I don't know where it will go or how we should handle it.

It's a fact that women endure a great deal of harrassment from men. Over Thanksgiving, my mother told me some of what she had to put up with as a professional woman scientists in a male dominated profession. I'm sure that is not unique.

It seems that Weinstein finally provided the tipping point for women to speak up about it. That for once they can without having their reputations trashed as sluts.

But it also seems that there is a rush - people are being fired rapidly, based on accusation, with little recourse to a defense. It's possible we simply don't hear the whole story...I'm not so sure about this rush to judgement.

I also think that people are lumping everything into the "sexual assault" category when it might not be.

There is a difference between a wolf whistle on the street corner and grabbing a woman's bum. There is a difference between grabbing a woman's bum and forceably kissing her. And there is a difference between forceably kissing her and raping her. They shouldn't all be treated the same.

There is the expectation of a certain professional code of conduct in the workplace - and there should be well established rules and a means of redress when boundaries are crossed. But I have to wonder - will men now be afraid to put a comforting arm around an upset woman? Provide a compliment on how she looks?

It's a bit of a Pandora's box...that needed to be opened, because women were silenced and shamed for so long...yet, there is more than we can handle there.

At work don't care if a man hesitates to wrap a comforting arm around me. Don't care if a man compliments my looks at work either.

And I think that's important. Because it puts a divider between being able to be friends with the other sex at work. Obviously same sex friendships at work sometimes get lewd and nasty or serious and about personal topics. If you want equal protection in the workplace -- you can't treat the opposite sex as off-limits to form non-sexual bonds and friendships.

 

[Markle]

Well for openers, corporations only have their own interests in mind. So it is understandable that they are firing based on accusations alone, which is unjust, but corporations are not about justice, they are about profits, and about cutting their losses, and about avoiding responsibility, and about making it look like they did everything they could.

That's the corporate world.

This kind of world is easy meat for a false accuser.

However we have no way of knowing who is a false accuser and who else is a true accuser. Corporations don't care. They are firing all of the intended subjects of accusations.

Corporations want to keep their customers and their stockholders happy.

The indents of firings lately are based on facts. With Matt Lauer, NBC had been advised that another news agency was ready to break the story. The night before he was fired, the accuser and her attorney met with NBC executives and attorneys. At the end of the meeting, that night, NBC called Matt Lauer and told him he did not have a job.

Matt Lauer is the big Kahuna, the star, the rainmaker, he makes hundreds of millions of dollars in PROFIT for NBC every year. He had just signed a new contract worth $20 MILLION a year. They would not have fired him had they not already known and had numerous incidents in the past. That too has proven to be true.

 

[Alexandra]

I have worked around women my entire career and have NEVER been accused of harassing a woman or using my authority over them to finagle sexual favors. Those being accused have proof against them. "He said, she said" doesn't work not even in the admiralty courts. Accusations can be made against anyone but the burden of proof is on the plaintiff and the defendant gets the opportunity to confront/ face off against his/her accusers.

And exactly when has that occurred over the last couple months? I don't recall any of these fellows facing their accusers in a court of law yet.

But they've already been convicted in the court of public opinion. Lauer got fired and will always be a scuzz. Franken will probably be fired by voters during his next election, and he'll never live down that picture. Charlie Rose went from lion to leper.

If a woman who's worked with you decided to level an accusation, and enough people paid attention, the same could happen to you whether you deserved it or not.

 

[Markle]

First is the question of the false accusation for profit versus a true accusation. Corporations don't care about the difference.

That's foolish.

Firing someone, anyone, over an accusation proven false is a massive lawsuit that the firm would do everything possible to settle without going to court.

 

[Markle]

Sure, there has always been the presumption that the woman "asked for it" in some way or is looking to cash in. The most tragic examples of that were the rape and misconduct victims of Bill Clinton. I always thought it was so ironic that the one woman (Monica) who apparently invited Bill Clinton's sexual advances was the one who got him Impeached.

Nonsense, he got himself impeached. Monica and all the other women had nothing to do with his impeachment.

He was impeached for perjury. He lied under oath.

In the atmosphere today, I believe the Senate would have voted to convict him.

 

[Dale Smith]

I have worked around women my entire career and have NEVER been accused of harassing a woman or using my authority over them to finagle sexual favors. Those being accused have proof against them. "He said, she said" doesn't work not even in the admiralty courts. Accusations can be made against anyone but the burden of proof is on the plaintiff and the defendant gets the opportunity to confront/ face off against his/her accusers.

And exactly when has that occurred over the last couple months? I don't recall any of these fellows facing their accusers in a court of law yet.

But they've already been convicted in the court of public opinion. Lauer got fired and will always be a scuzz. Franken will probably be fired by voters during his next election, and he'll never live down that picture. Charlie Rose went from lion to leper.

If a woman who's worked with you decided to level an accusation, and enough people paid attention, the same could happen to you whether you deserved it or not.

If they were innocent and the claims were bogus? They would fight for truth.....obviously the claims had merit or they wouldn't have bailed. I suspect that the accusations of those that have resigned in disgrace go much deeper but I can only speculate.

 

[Alexandra]

If they were innocent and the claims were bogus? They would fight for truth.....obviously the claims had merit or they wouldn't have bailed. I suspect that the accusations of those that have resigned in disgrace go much deeper but I can only speculate.

"They would fight for truth..."

Sorry for saying so, but that's a naive sentiment. Shame is a powerful weapon that can take out the innocent as quickly as the guilty, and fighting for truth in a lynch-mob atmosphere is the province of the extraordinary. Most people are content to keep their heads down and go with the flow, and quite a few of the falsely accused, having been part of the mob one moment only to find themselves its target the next, are much more likely to cower because they know what they're up against, because they helped nurture it.

"I can only speculate..."

Keep that in mind.

 

[monkrules]

Absolutely I agree- I put the current stuff in three categories:
a) Sexual assault- that includes of course the obvious- rape- but also includes taking a 14 year old's hand and putting it on your johnson.
b) Sexual intimidation- that is usually a power thing- using your power or authority to try to coerce or intimidate someone to have sex.
c) Sexual harrassment- that includes pursuing a woman when she does not want to be pursued- but also includes commenting about her boobs.

Grabbing her buns or forcing an unwanted kiss might apply to any of the three- but I agree not the same as rape- or sexually abusing a minor.

There is a difference- a big difference.

Grabbing a woman's ass or kissing a woman you don't know, or who has not agreed to be touched is assault (or, battery, I don't know the correct terminology), and it should be reported to authorities as such. No one has a right to put a hand on you without your consent.

Witnesses have heard President trump brag about kissing women in this way. And he is on tape talking about having done much worse. I take him at his word, and believe him. I think he's a sexual predator.

 

[Dale Smith]

If they were innocent and the claims were bogus? They would fight for truth.....obviously the claims had merit or they wouldn't have bailed. I suspect that the accusations of those that have resigned in disgrace go much deeper but I can only speculate.

"They would fight for truth..."

Sorry for saying so, but that's a naive sentiment. Shame is a powerful weapon that can take out the innocent as quickly as the guilty, and fighting for truth in a lynch-mob atmosphere is the province of the extraordinary. Most people are content to keep their heads down and go with the flow, and quite a few of the falsely accused, having been part of the mob one moment only to find themselves its target the next, are much more likely to cower because they know what they're up against, because they helped nurture it.

"I can only speculate..."

Keep that in mind.

Not if you stand for something.......obviously the ones accused had something to hide or they would have fought for their reputations.