Settlements only "illegal" for Jews

[P F Tinmore]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

International law says it is Israel.

Link?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

International law says it is Israel.

Link?

The Bible

 

[Shusha]

Everyone, we are going down the wrong path here.

Legally, who does the territory belong to? (The Bible has no legal authority.)

Since we all agree that it does NOT belong to Jordan, nor any other State, the options are limited to:

terra nullius (belonging to no one, aka disputed territory)

Israel

(as yet imaginary) Palestine (somehow reserved for Arab Palestinian self-determination).

 

[Spartacactcus]

Yes. I am aware. I've read the opinion.

The advisory (!) opinion took on say-so that the Green Line is a legal boundary between the State of Israel and the (as yet imaginary) State of Palestine. There is no legal basis for this. None. It is a discriminatory misuse of law.

I understand it was an advisory opinion and that's why I wish for the day when the real legal battle is waged and the law brought in to help resolve the conflict but it is still imo a useful guide given by extremely qualified people

The parts of the advisory decision that were related to the Green line cited the applicability of the 4th GC and the subsequent UNSC resolutions made wrt to the aftermath of the 67 conflict. The legal basis now as was then is the inadmissibility of acquiring of territory through warfare. You will also know that UNSC resolutions are legally binding and that UN member states have agreed to be bound by them.

 

[Indeependent]

So then, why does every map of Israel show these as its borders?

False premise as every map of Israel does not show these lines, let alone as borders.

Arabs show the map without Israel at all because that represents their aspirations.

The international community shows these lines as "lawfare" against Israel.

Israel shows these lines as representative of Israel's willingness to cede territory for peace. That time is coming to an end now.

Naftali Bennett has already mixed any land surrender.

Do you mean nixed? Yeah, Bennett is a great guy, his parents made Aliyah from America.

Ah, must be one of those indigenous Israelis that Israel is always talking about.

Who makes the maps?

 

[Shusha]

I understand it was an advisory opinion and that's why I wish for the day when the real legal battle is waged and the law brought in to help resolve the conflict but it is still imo a useful guide given by extremely qualified people.

You and me both. Israel has the best legal claim to the entirety of the territory.

The parts of the advisory decision that were related to the Green line cited the applicability of the 4th GC and the subsequent UNSC resolutions made wrt to the aftermath of the 67 conflict. The legal basis now as was then is the inadmissibility of acquiring of territory through warfare. You will also know that UNSC resolutions are legally binding and that UN member states have agreed to be bound by them.

You are deliberately evading my point.

The Green Line is not an international boundary and never has been. It arose strictly due to a war of aggression by Jordan on territory not under Jordan's sovereignty. It is irrelevant in all ways.

So FROM WHOM did Israel "acquire territory"? What was the international boundary line between Israel and that "whom"? How was that boundary line established? What treaty demarcates that boundary line?

We agree that it can not have been Jordan, since Jordan never held title to that territory as it was outside Jordan's international borders. We also agree that Jordan renounced all claims to the territory in her Peace Treaty with Israel. And the international border between Israel and Jordan, by treaty, is the Jordan River, which means Jordan retreated to her own international boundaries and neither Jordan nor Israel acquired territory in either the 1948 nor 1967 conflict.

So from whom did Israel "acquire territory" and how does the Green Line apply to that alleged acquisition?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ Spartacactcus, et al,

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Yes. I am aware. I've read the opinion.

The advisory (!) opinion took on say-so that the Green Line is a legal boundary between the State of Israel and the (as yet imaginary) State of Palestine. There is no legal basis for this. None. It is a discriminatory misuse of law.

I understand it was an advisory opinion and that's why I wish for the day when the real legal battle is waged and the law brought in to help resolve the conflict but it is still imo a useful guide given by extremely qualified people

The parts of the advisory decision that were related to the Green line cited the applicability of the 4th GC and the subsequent UNSC resolutions made wrt to the aftermath of the 67 conflicts. The legal basis now as was then is the inadmissibility of acquiring of territory through warfare. You will also know that UNSC resolutions are legally binding and that UN member states have agreed to be bound by them.

(COMMENT)

The "Green Line" becomes a "historical" boundary when the establishment of Peace Treaties replaces the Armistice Agreements which were the origins and instruments that established the demarcation (Green Line); and remaining in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties was achieved.

The Armistice Agreements had no obligation or connection on which the various Hostile Arab Palestinian activities might legally tether themselves. And even if the various Hostile Arab Palestinian activities could persuade a legal tribunal on some sympathetic connection to the Armistice Agreements, the agreements themselves contradict that assertion:

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire Demarcation Lines were to delineate the lines beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move.

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire was not to be interpreted as an ultimate political settlement

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire Demarcation Lines were subject to periodical review.

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire Demarcation Lines were not to be a means of military or political advantage under the truce ordered by the Security Council.

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire was agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines.​

In 1949 there were certain expectation and there were certain prohibitions. None of which were binding between the Israelis and of the various Hostile Arab Palestinian activities.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[flacaltenn]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

Where do you think this "map off" "rap off" battle is going here? Is there a point?

Seems to me that "measles map" of Pali cities and settlements within Areas A and B needs some redesign to make those areas connected and titled correctly.. 2.5 million Palis are not moving out and need CERTAINTY in their ability to control those areas with ACCESS to the rest of the Pali population...

 

[Shusha]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ Spartacactcus, et al,

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Yes. I am aware. I've read the opinion.

The advisory (!) opinion took on say-so that the Green Line is a legal boundary between the State of Israel and the (as yet imaginary) State of Palestine. There is no legal basis for this. None. It is a discriminatory misuse of law.

I understand it was an advisory opinion and that's why I wish for the day when the real legal battle is waged and the law brought in to help resolve the conflict but it is still imo a useful guide given by extremely qualified people

The parts of the advisory decision that were related to the Green line cited the applicability of the 4th GC and the subsequent UNSC resolutions made wrt to the aftermath of the 67 conflicts. The legal basis now as was then is the inadmissibility of acquiring of territory through warfare. You will also know that UNSC resolutions are legally binding and that UN member states have agreed to be bound by them.

(COMMENT)

The "Green Line" becomes a "historical" boundary when the establishment of Peace Treaties replaces the Armistice Agreements which were the origins and instruments that established the demarcation (Green Line); and remaining in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties was achieved.

The Armistice Agreements had no obligation or connection on which the various Hostile Arab Palestinian activities might legally tether themselves. And even if the various Hostile Arab Palestinian activities could persuade a legal tribunal on some sympathetic connection to the Armistice Agreements, the agreements themselves contradict that assertion:

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire Demarcation Lines were to delineate the lines beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move.

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire was not to be interpreted as an ultimate political settlement

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire Demarcation Lines were subject to periodical review.

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire Demarcation Lines were not to be a means of military or political advantage under the truce ordered by the Security Council.

◈ The Armistice/Cease-Fire was agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines.​

In 1949 there were certain expectation and there were certain prohibitions. None of which were binding between the Israelis and of the various Hostile Arab Palestinian activities.


Most Respectfully,
R

Key point, repeated for emphasis: The Green Line is not legally binding on either Israel or the Arab Palestinians.

You gotta ask yourself why it is still the focus of discussion after 25 ish years.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ Shasha, Spartacactcus, et al,
Good Question!

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Key point, repeated for emphasis: The Green Line is not legally binding on either Israel or the Arab Palestinians.

You gotta ask yourself why it is still the focus of discussion after 25 ish years.

(COMMENT)

This constant injection of the "Green Line" argument (as some sort of international boundary to help legitimize the imaginary State of Palestinian by other Hostile Arab Palestinian activities) appears to be a desperate effort to implant sympathetic confusion and chaos into the thought process. It is using misinformation to flood the argument so it sounds as if there is some validity in the claim of sovereignty.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ Shasha, Spartacactcus, et al,
Good Question!

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Key point, repeated for emphasis: The Green Line is not legally binding on either Israel or the Arab Palestinians.

You gotta ask yourself why it is still the focus of discussion after 25 ish years.

(COMMENT)

This constant injection of the "Green Line" argument (as some sort of international boundary to help legitimize the imaginary State of Palestinian by other Hostile Arab Palestinian activities) appears to be a desperate effort to implant sympathetic confusion and chaos into the thought process. It is using misinformation to flood the argument so it sounds as if there is some validity in the claim of sovereignty.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

Where do you think this "map off" "rap off" battle is going here? Is there a point?

Seems to me that "measles map" of Pali cities and settlements within Areas A and B needs some redesign to make those areas connected and titled correctly.. 2.5 million Palis are not moving out and need CERTAINTY in their ability to control those areas with ACCESS to the rest of the Pali population...

I merely asked for a map of Israel using its real borders.

I have asked for a 1948 map of Israel and nobody can find one. 1948 Is the most important date in Israeli history. It is the founding of their state. Yet nobody bothered to make a map. Strange indeed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ Shasha, Spartacactcus, et al,
Good Question!

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Key point, repeated for emphasis: The Green Line is not legally binding on either Israel or the Arab Palestinians.

You gotta ask yourself why it is still the focus of discussion after 25 ish years.

(COMMENT)

This constant injection of the "Green Line" argument (as some sort of international boundary to help legitimize the imaginary State of Palestinian by other Hostile Arab Palestinian activities) appears to be a desperate effort to implant sympathetic confusion and chaos into the thought process. It is using misinformation to flood the argument so it sounds as if there is some validity in the claim of sovereignty.


Most Respectfully,
R

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Not true.

The "Green Line" was a line that military forces could not cross.

It was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary.

 

[Hollie]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

Where do you think this "map off" "rap off" battle is going here? Is there a point?

Seems to me that "measles map" of Pali cities and settlements within Areas A and B needs some redesign to make those areas connected and titled correctly.. 2.5 million Palis are not moving out and need CERTAINTY in their ability to control those areas with ACCESS to the rest of the Pali population...

I merely asked for a map of Israel using its real borders.

I have asked for a 1948 map of Israel and nobody can find one. 1948 Is the most important date in Israeli history. It is the founding of their state. Yet nobody bothered to make a map. Strange indeed.

You can’t find a map of Israel? Indeed, strange.

Indeed, You can ask Hamas where the IsraelI borders are. Indeed, Israel is protecting those borders from attacks by the Islamic terrorists.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

Where do you think this "map off" "rap off" battle is going here? Is there a point?

Seems to me that "measles map" of Pali cities and settlements within Areas A and B needs some redesign to make those areas connected and titled correctly.. 2.5 million Palis are not moving out and need CERTAINTY in their ability to control those areas with ACCESS to the rest of the Pali population...

I merely asked for a map of Israel using its real borders.

I have asked for a 1948 map of Israel and nobody can find one. 1948 Is the most important date in Israeli history. It is the founding of their state. Yet nobody bothered to make a map. Strange indeed.

Can you show me a map of the United States from 1776? At that time the U.S. consisted of just the 13 colonies. Since then the U.S. has expanded. Same for tiny Israel. Soon the Palestinians will lose the West Bank as well, thanks to their extremism.

 

[rylah]

The Levy Report concluded there's no legal basis to define Israel's sovereignty as occupation,
or Jewish presences as illegal in Judea.

Of course you would expect that such a fanatical group as those on the Levy committee would seek to justify the retroactive legalisation of illegal outposts in the occupied territory just like you would expect fanatics of the Palestinian side to come up with a report that retroactively redefined some terrorist actions as legitimate acts of war

We can do this routine, where you call facts "fanatical",
instead of actually addressing the body of the text.

What makes judge Levy's legal position of a lesser value than that of the former commissioner,
that he opposed the disengagement from Gaza on basis of human rights?

The previous governments, the socialist ones, supported a legal position that was sounded in the report you've brought up - written by an American citizen who renounced his Israeli citizenship at the entrance to the UN, because the state refused his wife a job as his personal typist.

So if you still want to do this routine...the point is, in reality, the issue is not subject to longwinded debates of opinionated lawyers, rather the sovereign choice of the nation dwelling in Zion.

 

[toastman]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ Shasha, Spartacactcus, et al,
Good Question!

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Key point, repeated for emphasis: The Green Line is not legally binding on either Israel or the Arab Palestinians.

You gotta ask yourself why it is still the focus of discussion after 25 ish years.

(COMMENT)

This constant injection of the "Green Line" argument (as some sort of international boundary to help legitimize the imaginary State of Palestinian by other Hostile Arab Palestinian activities) appears to be a desperate effort to implant sympathetic confusion and chaos into the thought process. It is using misinformation to flood the argument so it sounds as if there is some validity in the claim of sovereignty.


Most Respectfully,
R

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Not true.

The "Green Line" was a line that military forces could not cross.

It was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary.

Link?

 

[toastman]

Everybody. Find a map of Israel that uses its real borders.

Where does it say that that is Israel?

Where do you think this "map off" "rap off" battle is going here? Is there a point?

Seems to me that "measles map" of Pali cities and settlements within Areas A and B needs some redesign to make those areas connected and titled correctly.. 2.5 million Palis are not moving out and need CERTAINTY in their ability to control those areas with ACCESS to the rest of the Pali population...

I merely asked for a map of Israel using its real borders.

I have asked for a 1948 map of Israel and nobody can find one. 1948 Is the most important date in Israeli history. It is the founding of their state. Yet nobody bothered to make a map. Strange indeed.

We’ve shown you everything you’ve asked for tinmore, but the problem is you refuse to accept the truth because you are a Palestinian propagandist.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.

The "Green Line" = "Armistice Line" = "Demarcation Line" (From the specific - to the category - to the generalization.)

All Armistice Lines are a form of Demarcation. Not all Demarcations are Armistice Lines.

The "Green Line" is an agreed-upon demarcation between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.

Not true.

The "Green Line" was a line that military forces could not cross.

It was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary.

(COMMENT)

The West Bank refers to the territory situated west of the Jordan River that was not included as part of Israel following the establishment of the state after the Arab–Israel War of 1948. The West Bank's total area is 2,270 square miles (5,880 sq. km), smaller than the area that was originally allocated to a future Arab state by the United Nations partition resolution of November 1947. It is demarcated by the Green Line (the armistice line set by the 1949 Jordanian-Israeli talks at Rhodes) in the west and the Jordan River in the east.

A demarcation is a line, boundary, or other conceptual separation between things.
Geographically, a demarcation might be the border that separates
two countries or the river that divides two regions.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, I would agree that 1948 was an important year for Israel. The year of establishment is an important year for most countries.

I merely asked for a map of Israel using its real borders.

I have asked for a 1948 map of Israel and nobody can find one. 1948 Is the most important date in Israeli history. It is the founding of their state. Yet nobody bothered to make a map. Strange indeed.

(COMMENT)

But 1948 is more than just important to Israel. It is the years that the Jordanians and the Egyptians seized both the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

1948 is the year in which the Arab League began the political and military efforts that would eventually bring Israel to have the sovereign territory it has today, and the effective control over other disputed territories.

Yes, I've seen you use this trick before; as if the lack of a 1948 map actually changes the 2020 ground truth and reality.

I have seen, over the last couple of years, you challenge any number of Maps that have been offered to you. This is just another case of misdirection. We could submit any Map to you, it would not actually affect the border markers.

Most Respectfully,
R