Scientist: Do We Really Know?

[jc456]

I can calculate changes in TSI any way I want. I may not be able to specify the real value of my results (for which I made no attempt) but neither can you ignore the various feedback mechanisms to a change in radiative forcing as you've done now repeatedly trying to tell us that CO2 climate sensitivity is 1C or less.

Care to explain why you believe the storage mechanisms for radiative energy direct from the sun should be in any significant manner different from the storage mechanisms from radiative energy that's taken a detour through GHGs? Spectrum? Magic? Wishful thinking?

My God Crick -- that last part has been discussed here a dozen times. You really should stop asking questions. Because it's a flat-out admission you are not following ANYTHING of any technical nature at all..

You don't remember longwave/shortwave discussions as it applies to ocean heating??

Obviously -- your questions gave you away... Waste of time for both of us.. Probably MORE of a waste of our time than going over back-rad with the bat-shit crazy deniers in this forum..

Then apparently you missed jc's expert who claims that the largest portion of solar energy striking the surface of the Earth DIRECTLY (and that would include the oceans) is IR.

I recall some very foolish people who claimed that water had some sort of "skin" to it which was inexplicably unable to transfer heat it had absorbed downward, even when that skin was physically mixed with the bulk of the water body. Is THAT the discussion to which you refer?

Why isn't the sunny side of Venus hotter than the dark side?

 

[RollingThunder]

I can calculate changes in TSI any way I want. I may not be able to specify the real value of my results (for which I made no attempt) but neither can you ignore the various feedback mechanisms to a change in radiative forcing as you've done now repeatedly trying to tell us that CO2 climate sensitivity is 1C or less.

Care to explain why you believe the storage mechanisms for radiative energy direct from the sun should be in any significant manner different from the storage mechanisms from radiative energy that's taken a detour through GHGs? Spectrum? Magic? Wishful thinking?

My God Crick -- that last part has been discussed here a dozen times. You really should stop asking questions. Because it's a flat-out admission you are not following ANYTHING of any technical nature at all..

You don't remember longwave/shortwave discussions as it applies to ocean heating??

Obviously -- your questions gave you away... Waste of time for both of us.. Probably MORE of a waste of our time than going over back-rad with the bat-shit crazy deniers in this forum..

Then apparently you missed jc's expert who claims that the largest portion of solar energy striking the surface of the Earth DIRECTLY (and that would include the oceans) is IR.

I recall some very foolish people who claimed that water had some sort of "skin" to it which was inexplicably unable to transfer heat it had absorbed downward, even when that skin was physically mixed with the bulk of the water body. Is THAT the discussion to which you refer?

Why isn't the sunny side of Venus hotter than the dark side?

Why don't you grow a brain and get an education, dumbass?

 

[jc456]

Why do clouds form?

Due to water vapor in an atmosphere that changes temperature and pressure with altitude. As water-bearing air rises into regions in which the temperature and pressure pushes it pas its dew point, the water condenses, most often around dust particles, forming droplets. Billions of droplets form clouds. I do not see what bearing that has on back-radiation

It ain't re-radiation. Hmm where do pressure systems come from?

From Mr Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
A pressure system is a relative peak or lull in the sea level pressure distribution. The surface pressure at sea level varies minimally, with the lowest value measured 870.0 hectopascals (25.69 inHg) and the highest recorded 1,085.7 hectopascals (32.06 inHg). High- and low-pressure systems evolve due to interactions of temperature differentials in the atmosphere, temperature differences between the atmosphere and water within oceans and lakes, the influence of upper-level disturbances,[jargon] as well as the amount of solar heating or radiational cooling an area receives. Pressure systems cause weather experienced locally. Low-pressure systems are associated with clouds and precipitation that minimize temperature changes through the day, whereas high-pressure systems normally associated with dry weather and mostly clear skies with larger diurnal temperature changes due to greater radiation at night and greater sunshine during the day. Pressure systems are analyzed by those in the field of meteorology within surface weather maps.

No re-radiation again. Hell evaporation is always happening, the earth is covered with clouds. Do you think there aren't?

Please explain your point. For starters, if the Earth's atmosphere is not absorbing and re-radiating energy, what prevents the Earth from being at its black body temperature of -18C/0F? Alternatively, if you believe it absorbs but does not radiate, what prevents it from being the same temperature as the surface of the photosphere?

Where do you suppose the water vapor comes from?

 

[jc456]

I can calculate changes in TSI any way I want. I may not be able to specify the real value of my results (for which I made no attempt) but neither can you ignore the various feedback mechanisms to a change in radiative forcing as you've done now repeatedly trying to tell us that CO2 climate sensitivity is 1C or less.

Care to explain why you believe the storage mechanisms for radiative energy direct from the sun should be in any significant manner different from the storage mechanisms from radiative energy that's taken a detour through GHGs? Spectrum? Magic? Wishful thinking?

My God Crick -- that last part has been discussed here a dozen times. You really should stop asking questions. Because it's a flat-out admission you are not following ANYTHING of any technical nature at all..

You don't remember longwave/shortwave discussions as it applies to ocean heating??

Obviously -- your questions gave you away... Waste of time for both of us.. Probably MORE of a waste of our time than going over back-rad with the bat-shit crazy deniers in this forum..

Then apparently you missed jc's expert who claims that the largest portion of solar energy striking the surface of the Earth DIRECTLY (and that would include the oceans) is IR.

I recall some very foolish people who claimed that water had some sort of "skin" to it which was inexplicably unable to transfer heat it had absorbed downward, even when that skin was physically mixed with the bulk of the water body. Is THAT the discussion to which you refer?

Why isn't the sunny side of Venus hotter than the dark side?

Why don't you grow a brain and get an education, dumbass?

Is that what you'd tell the physicists that agree with m? So now you're smarter then they are? Hahahaha if you think I've made this up tell me or back up your re-radiation nonsense.

 

[MaryL]

I like this, science can be bought out? Um. Basically truth and facts go away. Money wins out, facts can be corrupted? Think again, boyo.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why do clouds form?

Due to water vapor in an atmosphere that changes temperature and pressure with altitude. As water-bearing air rises into regions in which the temperature and pressure pushes it pas its dew point, the water condenses, most often around dust particles, forming droplets. Billions of droplets form clouds. I do not see what bearing that has on back-radiation

It ain't re-radiation. Hmm where do pressure systems come from?

From Mr Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
A pressure system is a relative peak or lull in the sea level pressure distribution. The surface pressure at sea level varies minimally, with the lowest value measured 870.0 hectopascals (25.69 inHg) and the highest recorded 1,085.7 hectopascals (32.06 inHg). High- and low-pressure systems evolve due to interactions of temperature differentials in the atmosphere, temperature differences between the atmosphere and water within oceans and lakes, the influence of upper-level disturbances,[jargon] as well as the amount of solar heating or radiational cooling an area receives. Pressure systems cause weather experienced locally. Low-pressure systems are associated with clouds and precipitation that minimize temperature changes through the day, whereas high-pressure systems normally associated with dry weather and mostly clear skies with larger diurnal temperature changes due to greater radiation at night and greater sunshine during the day. Pressure systems are analyzed by those in the field of meteorology within surface weather maps.

No re-radiation again. Hell evaporation is always happening, the earth is covered with clouds. Do you think there aren't?

Please explain your point. For starters, if the Earth's atmosphere is not absorbing and re-radiating energy, what prevents the Earth from being at its black body temperature of -18C/0F? Alternatively, if you believe it absorbs but does not radiate, what prevents it from being the same temperature as the surface of the photosphere?

Dude, mass volume convection circulation and a layered atmosphere that maintains volume. You should actually read up on all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

 

[Crick]

I have to ask, Todd. What is a "derp"?

 

[jc456]

Why do clouds form?

Due to water vapor in an atmosphere that changes temperature and pressure with altitude. As water-bearing air rises into regions in which the temperature and pressure pushes it pas its dew point, the water condenses, most often around dust particles, forming droplets. Billions of droplets form clouds. I do not see what bearing that has on back-radiation

It ain't re-radiation. Hmm where do pressure systems come from?

From Mr Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
A pressure system is a relative peak or lull in the sea level pressure distribution. The surface pressure at sea level varies minimally, with the lowest value measured 870.0 hectopascals (25.69 inHg) and the highest recorded 1,085.7 hectopascals (32.06 inHg). High- and low-pressure systems evolve due to interactions of temperature differentials in the atmosphere, temperature differences between the atmosphere and water within oceans and lakes, the influence of upper-level disturbances,[jargon] as well as the amount of solar heating or radiational cooling an area receives. Pressure systems cause weather experienced locally. Low-pressure systems are associated with clouds and precipitation that minimize temperature changes through the day, whereas high-pressure systems normally associated with dry weather and mostly clear skies with larger diurnal temperature changes due to greater radiation at night and greater sunshine during the day. Pressure systems are analyzed by those in the field of meteorology within surface weather maps.

No re-radiation again. Hell evaporation is always happening, the earth is covered with clouds. Do you think there aren't?

Please explain your point. For starters, if the Earth's atmosphere is not absorbing and re-radiating energy, what prevents the Earth from being at its black body temperature of -18C/0F? Alternatively, if you believe it absorbs but does not radiate, what prevents it from being the same temperature as the surface of the photosphere?

Dude, mass volume convection circulation and a layered atmosphere that maintains volume. You should actually read up on all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

 

[Crick]

Have you lost it or did you never actually have any?

The physicists are the ones telling us that ALL matter radiates. Nothing gets excepted. What you think is science in this regard is blithering nonsense.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Mr.redkneck feels that scientist don't know anything of their subject and somehow he knows all. He must be god or something because that is the only way he knows more.

 

[ScienceRocks]

I like this, science can be bought out? Um. Basically truth and facts go away. Money wins out, facts can be corrupted? Think again, boyo.

Well, the oil and coal industry is pumping money into the denier side. No one is clean, but I'd bet a lot that the 50 times as many scientist of every scientific society on earth is less bias.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I have to ask, Todd. What is a "derp"?

It signifies the utter stupidity of JC's comments.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why do clouds form?

Due to water vapor in an atmosphere that changes temperature and pressure with altitude. As water-bearing air rises into regions in which the temperature and pressure pushes it pas its dew point, the water condenses, most often around dust particles, forming droplets. Billions of droplets form clouds. I do not see what bearing that has on back-radiation

It ain't re-radiation. Hmm where do pressure systems come from?

From Mr Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
A pressure system is a relative peak or lull in the sea level pressure distribution. The surface pressure at sea level varies minimally, with the lowest value measured 870.0 hectopascals (25.69 inHg) and the highest recorded 1,085.7 hectopascals (32.06 inHg). High- and low-pressure systems evolve due to interactions of temperature differentials in the atmosphere, temperature differences between the atmosphere and water within oceans and lakes, the influence of upper-level disturbances,[jargon] as well as the amount of solar heating or radiational cooling an area receives. Pressure systems cause weather experienced locally. Low-pressure systems are associated with clouds and precipitation that minimize temperature changes through the day, whereas high-pressure systems normally associated with dry weather and mostly clear skies with larger diurnal temperature changes due to greater radiation at night and greater sunshine during the day. Pressure systems are analyzed by those in the field of meteorology within surface weather maps.

No re-radiation again. Hell evaporation is always happening, the earth is covered with clouds. Do you think there aren't?

Please explain your point. For starters, if the Earth's atmosphere is not absorbing and re-radiating energy, what prevents the Earth from being at its black body temperature of -18C/0F? Alternatively, if you believe it absorbs but does not radiate, what prevents it from being the same temperature as the surface of the photosphere?

Dude, mass volume convection circulation and a layered atmosphere that maintains volume. You should actually read up on all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere doesn't radiate?

 

[Old Rocks]

Why certainly he does. Silly Billy, after all, he has stated that he has a degree in Atmospheric Physics. LOL

 

[flacaltenn]

I can calculate changes in TSI any way I want. I may not be able to specify the real value of my results (for which I made no attempt) but neither can you ignore the various feedback mechanisms to a change in radiative forcing as you've done now repeatedly trying to tell us that CO2 climate sensitivity is 1C or less.

Care to explain why you believe the storage mechanisms for radiative energy direct from the sun should be in any significant manner different from the storage mechanisms from radiative energy that's taken a detour through GHGs? Spectrum? Magic? Wishful thinking?

My God Crick -- that last part has been discussed here a dozen times. You really should stop asking questions. Because it's a flat-out admission you are not following ANYTHING of any technical nature at all..

You don't remember longwave/shortwave discussions as it applies to ocean heating??

Obviously -- your questions gave you away... Waste of time for both of us.. Probably MORE of a waste of our time than going over back-rad with the bat-shit crazy deniers in this forum..

Then apparently you missed jc's expert who claims that the largest portion of solar energy striking the surface of the Earth DIRECTLY (and that would include the oceans) is IR.

I recall some very foolish people who claimed that water had some sort of "skin" to it which was inexplicably unable to transfer heat it had absorbed downward, even when that skin was physically mixed with the bulk of the water body. Is THAT the discussion to which you refer?

Why isn't the sunny side of Venus hotter than the dark side?

Why don't you grow a brain and get an education, dumbass?

Is that what you'd tell the physicists that agree with m? So now you're smarter then they are? Hahahaha if you think I've made this up tell me or back up your re-radiation nonsense.

JC -- you are just a plaything for a physicist with a grudge. Sometimes you gotta take the intervention seriously. From folks that ACTUALLY care about you.. Primadonnas and fruitcakes are RAMPANT in the sciences..

 

[jc456]

Why do clouds form?

Due to water vapor in an atmosphere that changes temperature and pressure with altitude. As water-bearing air rises into regions in which the temperature and pressure pushes it pas its dew point, the water condenses, most often around dust particles, forming droplets. Billions of droplets form clouds. I do not see what bearing that has on back-radiation

It ain't re-radiation. Hmm where do pressure systems come from?

From Mr Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
A pressure system is a relative peak or lull in the sea level pressure distribution. The surface pressure at sea level varies minimally, with the lowest value measured 870.0 hectopascals (25.69 inHg) and the highest recorded 1,085.7 hectopascals (32.06 inHg). High- and low-pressure systems evolve due to interactions of temperature differentials in the atmosphere, temperature differences between the atmosphere and water within oceans and lakes, the influence of upper-level disturbances,[jargon] as well as the amount of solar heating or radiational cooling an area receives. Pressure systems cause weather experienced locally. Low-pressure systems are associated with clouds and precipitation that minimize temperature changes through the day, whereas high-pressure systems normally associated with dry weather and mostly clear skies with larger diurnal temperature changes due to greater radiation at night and greater sunshine during the day. Pressure systems are analyzed by those in the field of meteorology within surface weather maps.

No re-radiation again. Hell evaporation is always happening, the earth is covered with clouds. Do you think there aren't?

Please explain your point. For starters, if the Earth's atmosphere is not absorbing and re-radiating energy, what prevents the Earth from being at its black body temperature of -18C/0F? Alternatively, if you believe it absorbs but does not radiate, what prevents it from being the same temperature as the surface of the photosphere?

Dude, mass volume convection circulation and a layered atmosphere that maintains volume. You should actually read up on all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere doesn't radiate?

my error, meant re-radiate.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Due to water vapor in an atmosphere that changes temperature and pressure with altitude. As water-bearing air rises into regions in which the temperature and pressure pushes it pas its dew point, the water condenses, most often around dust particles, forming droplets. Billions of droplets form clouds. I do not see what bearing that has on back-radiation

From Mr Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
A pressure system is a relative peak or lull in the sea level pressure distribution. The surface pressure at sea level varies minimally, with the lowest value measured 870.0 hectopascals (25.69 inHg) and the highest recorded 1,085.7 hectopascals (32.06 inHg). High- and low-pressure systems evolve due to interactions of temperature differentials in the atmosphere, temperature differences between the atmosphere and water within oceans and lakes, the influence of upper-level disturbances,[jargon] as well as the amount of solar heating or radiational cooling an area receives. Pressure systems cause weather experienced locally. Low-pressure systems are associated with clouds and precipitation that minimize temperature changes through the day, whereas high-pressure systems normally associated with dry weather and mostly clear skies with larger diurnal temperature changes due to greater radiation at night and greater sunshine during the day. Pressure systems are analyzed by those in the field of meteorology within surface weather maps.

Please explain your point. For starters, if the Earth's atmosphere is not absorbing and re-radiating energy, what prevents the Earth from being at its black body temperature of -18C/0F? Alternatively, if you believe it absorbs but does not radiate, what prevents it from being the same temperature as the surface of the photosphere?

Dude, mass volume convection circulation and a layered atmosphere that maintains volume. You should actually read up on all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere doesn't radiate?

my error, meant re-radiate.

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere absorbs and doesn't re-radiate?

 

[jc456]

Dude, mass volume convection circulation and a layered atmosphere that maintains volume. You should actually read up on all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere doesn't radiate?

my error, meant re-radiate.

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere absorbs and doesn't re-radiate?

I don't know them, I know of them. Yes, there is a really good exchange on a Climate Etc website by Judith Curry. Judith isn't one of them. But she opened up her forum back in 2011 for Claes Johnson for his hypothesis. I've been reading for over three days and I'm still only one third of the way down the comment section. Entertaining as heck.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere doesn't radiate?

my error, meant re-radiate.

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere absorbs and doesn't re-radiate?

I don't know them, I know of them. Yes, there is a really good exchange on a Climate Etc website by Judith Curry. Judith isn't one of them. But she opened up her forum back in 2011 for Claes Johnson for his hypothesis. I've been reading for over three days and I'm still only one third of the way down the comment section. Entertaining as heck.

she opened up her forum back in 2011 for Claes Johnson for his hypothesis.

I've seen some of his stuff. He's a moron.

So he's your source for the claim that the atmosphere absorbs but doesn't re-radiate?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

all the physicists that I've found that convinced me re-radiation is a pipe dream .

The atmosphere absorbs, never radiates. Derp!

Can't answer to the physicists eh? Why?

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere doesn't radiate?

my error, meant re-radiate.

You know some physicists who think the atmosphere absorbs and doesn't re-radiate?

I don't know them, I know of them. Yes, there is a really good exchange on a Climate Etc website by Judith Curry. Judith isn't one of them. But she opened up her forum back in 2011 for Claes Johnson for his hypothesis. I've been reading for over three days and I'm still only one third of the way down the comment section. Entertaining as heck.

Harold | January 31, 2011 at 5:35 pm |


I guess you didn’t get it. I’m a trained Physicist, now retired. I was pretty sure I just said something about the greenhouse effect, and particularly pointed how a simple thought experiment shows how wrong your theory is. I don’t intend to try to convince you, but my thought experiment should convince almost any reasonable idiot your theory is wrong.

I don’t use different standards for either side of AGW. I have fairly rigorous standards,, which you have failed, and most ot the AGW papers also fail my standards. Sloppy work on the AGW’s crowd’s part doesn’t excuse sloppy work on the anti-AGW’s side. As for dragging Tyndall into the discussion and how the physics hasn’t been looked at, try reading some of Dr. Earl W. McDaniel’s and others’ books from decades ago on details of atmospheric excitation and radiation.

Dr. Curry – FYI, Dr. McDaniel taught Physics at Georgia Tech, and had a great sense of humor.

Claes should have quit after this smack down.