SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Beliefs?

[Quantum Windbag]

It's your responsibility to obey the law. Is that hard to understand?

Not according to Martin Luther King and Gandhi.

Then don't pay your taxes. Case closed.

Is that because taxes are the only thing you care about?

 

[dblack]

Hobby lobby is arguing that their large for profit corporation should be exempted on the basis of the religious beliefs of the owners. Scalia argued that much yesterday. If a corporation has religious rights and free speech rights then it stands to reason that it should be entitled to voting rights. Please explain why a corporation should be denied voting rights. Alternatively just concede that corporations should have the same voting rights that you do and we can move on to the next point.

Can't help you there. As I've said, I don't think corporate personhood is salient to the Constitutionality of the contraceptive mandate. Neither is religion, for that matter. But I'm not on the legal team and, for some bizarre reason, they've haven't called me for my opinion (yet).

Since you are conceding that corporations would be entitled to voting rights on the same basis as granting them free speech and religious belief rights we can take that as the basis for the next point.

Given that corporations can be granted voting rights how many corporations would it take to alter the outcome of an election? Who has the funds to register all of these corporations? Who would control the results of every election going forward?

I'll see if I can find you a straw hat and a carrot for the nose.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is why they have to pay into SS...

United States vs Lee

At least you are doing better than Clayton at picking applicable cases. I do have a question though, did you actually read the decision? If not, here it is.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

Interesting, isn't it? Did you notice it applies to laws passed by Congress, not regulations written by the executive branch?

The ACA was a law passed by Congress.

Repeat after me, the birth control mandate is not a law passed by Congress.

 

[RandallFlagg]

At least you are doing better than Clayton at picking applicable cases. I do have a question though, did you actually read the decision? If not, here it is.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

Interesting, isn't it? Did you notice it applies to laws passed by Congress, not regulations written by the executive branch?

The ACA was a law passed by Congress.

Repeat after me, the birth control mandate is not a law passed by Congress.

I sincerely wish that you would stop interjecting facts into a conversation. It makes the little liberals eyes roll back into their pointed little heads....

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If Hobby Lobby currently has employees who use birth control, their claim here has no merit.

If you currently have a brain no one has seen any evidence of it. The simple fact is that Hobby Lobby is objecting only to four, very specific, types of abortifacients.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Can't help you there. As I've said, I don't think corporate personhood is salient to the Constitutionality of the contraceptive mandate. Neither is religion, for that matter. But I'm not on the legal team and, for some bizarre reason, they've haven't called me for my opinion (yet).

Since you are conceding that corporations would be entitled to voting rights on the same basis as granting them free speech and religious belief rights we can take that as the basis for the next point.

Given that corporations can be granted voting rights how many corporations would it take to alter the outcome of an election? Who has the funds to register all of these corporations? Who would control the results of every election going forward?

I'll see if I can find you a straw hat and a carrot for the nose.

Thank you for admitting that you cannot defend your position. Have a nice day!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Never before have for-profit corporations been afforded religious exemptions.

NEVER.

Are you sure about that?

For profit corporations have the right to free speech, freedom of the press, and the right to petition the government. They also have the protections of the rest of the Bill of Rights, which is why the police cannot simply show up at a corporation and walk off with whatever they want. Can you explain to me, rationally, why the only right they do not have is religion?

For profit corporations were originally formed to serve the public interest QW. Profit was secondary and corporate charters were temporary. A century and a half of corporate lawyers becoming active on courts have turned that around to where now most people really believe that they're actually people, (or even gods to be worshipped, in your case).

Damn, another idiot that reads one sentence in a history book, and thinks that makes everything he says smart. For the record, the corporations you are talking about were granted a fucking monopoly by the government, and actually had the power to kill people that tried to compete with them. Unless you are going to argue that we should go back to monopolies that have the power to kill people don't bring up what corporations used to do with me in the future.

Ever.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In effect, if the court rules in favor of the Greens, it would make that horrible bill AZ SB1062 - rejected because of its absurdity (in Arizona) (!) -- become the law of the land.

In effect, that very sensible SB 1062, that was rejected because a bunch of assholes lied about it, is the law of the land.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Maybe they'll have a temporary fit of sanity and strike down the mandate for everyone (not just religious orgs). Let's leave the state-mandated birth control policies to China.

When all employers get to make the call, and I suspect they will, it will be fun to watch as not only birth control goes on the uncovered list, but ED drugs, mental health, cancer drugs and all other drugs for chronic conditions, and most especially, pregnancy and coverage for children. That will start to clear the deadwood out ASAP as they go looking for other jobs and the employers go look for younger employees without families and illnesses that will cost them money. Fun...

What it will do is shatter the delusion that depending on an employer for health care was ever a good idea in the first place.

God let's hope so.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

For profit corporations were originally formed to serve the public interest ...

Mistake #1

Ahem:

Chief Justice John Marshall:

“A corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the charter of its creation confers upon it.” (1819)

Chief Justice Roger Taney:

“A corporation can have no legal existence out of the boundaries of the sovereignty by which it is created. It exists only in contemplation of law and by force of the law. ... It is indeed a mere artificial being.”agreed wholeheartedly in [Bank of Augusta v. Earle 1839]

"These two powerful architects of original Supreme Court authority insisted upon this artificial status in order to hold early American corporations particularly accountable to the state and to the public at large. Most of America’s first corporations—bridge companies, water companies, transportation companies, banks, and insurance companies—were viewed as essentially public service corporations or public franchises.

In addition to grants of property and public financing, the state usually accorded such entities special privileges like monopoly power, the power of eminent domain, or toll-taking authority.

In return for those benefits, the government insisted on the special public obligations of corporations. Not only were corporations not exempted in any way from generally applicable regulatory laws, but they were routinely held to higher standards of public service, public accountability, social responsibility, and public trust."

"Through most of our history, when the Supreme Court did discuss the constitutional rights of corporations, it only reinforced these principles of artificial status and public obligation."
Hobby Lobby and corporate personhood: Here?s the real history of corporate rights in America.

We already know you can't think, you don't have to prove it. Why don't you quote some of the arguments from yesterday's oral arguments if you want to look intelligent? Is it because you would be forced to actually admit you are wrong?

 

[dblack]

Since you are conceding that corporations would be entitled to voting rights on the same basis as granting them free speech and religious belief rights we can take that as the basis for the next point.

Given that corporations can be granted voting rights how many corporations would it take to alter the outcome of an election? Who has the funds to register all of these corporations? Who would control the results of every election going forward?

I'll see if I can find you a straw hat and a carrot for the nose.

Thank you for admitting that you cannot defend your position. Have a nice day!

Congratulations!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In effect, if the court rules in favor of the Greens, it would make that horrible bill AZ SB1062 - rejected because of its absurdity (in Arizona) (!) -- become the law of the land.

Maybe they'll have a temporary fit of sanity and strike down the mandate for everyone (not just religious orgs). Let's leave the state-mandated birth control policies to China.

When all employers get to make the call, and I suspect they will, it will be fun to watch as not only birth control goes on the uncovered list, but ED drugs, mental health, cancer drugs and all other drugs for chronic conditions, and most especially, pregnancy and coverage for children. That will start to clear the deadwood out ASAP as they go looking for other jobs and the employers go look for younger employees without families and illnesses that will cost them money. Fun...

Ever wonder why no one has ever accused ou of being intelligent?

 

[bendog]

When all employers get to make the call, and I suspect they will, it will be fun to watch as not only birth control goes on the uncovered list, but ED drugs, mental health, cancer drugs and all other drugs for chronic conditions, and most especially, pregnancy and coverage for children. That will start to clear the deadwood out ASAP as they go looking for other jobs and the employers go look for younger employees without families and illnesses that will cost them money. Fun...

What it will do is shatter the delusion that depending on an employer for health care was ever a good idea in the first place.

God let's hope so.

Well, the result may well just be to apply a tax upon all employers (and providers), ie just siphon some money off the top of the Obamacare revenues, and have pharmas fill all contraceptive scripts. The religious nutters will cry slavery again, but .... the quakers have to pay for war, just like the rest of us.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

When all employers get to make the call, and I suspect they will, it will be fun to watch as not only birth control goes on the uncovered list, but ED drugs, mental health, cancer drugs and all other drugs for chronic conditions, and most especially, pregnancy and coverage for children. That will start to clear the deadwood out ASAP as they go looking for other jobs and the employers go look for younger employees without families and illnesses that will cost them money. Fun...

What it will do is shatter the delusion that depending on an employer for health care was ever a good idea in the first place.

Blame Truman's generation & WWII for that...

You admit the problem is the government, but think the government can still fix the problem?

 

[dblack]

What it will do is shatter the delusion that depending on an employer for health care was ever a good idea in the first place.

God let's hope so.

Well, the result may well just be to apply a tax upon all employers (and providers), ie just siphon some money off the top of the Obamacare revenues, and have pharmas fill all contraceptive scripts. The religious nutters will cry slavery again, but .... the quakers have to pay for war, just like the rest of us.

Hmmm, "War on Health Care"? Is that the next campaign?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Original document where Heritage created Obamacare individual mandate

It is one of the reasons

Ok. I don't know what they were thinking with that or why. It's the worst sort of corporatist nonsense.

Of course it is...it's Heritage Foundation. Duh.

The liberal plan is single payer. The Democratic plan was a Public Option. We got the GOP Heritage plan and because President Obama did it, is "socialism". Nucking Futs.

Obama had nothing, repeat nothing, to do with Obamacare.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As long as Corporations as taxed as persons, then they have the rights afforded them as persons.

Their personhood is a legal fiction that was invented to be able to tax them.

They are not taxed as persons, they're taxed as corporations.

Citizens United basically affirmed it.

What circuit court is Citizens United?

The bottom line is ObamaCare should have never been passed in the first place. It is grossly unconstitutional,

If it was unconstitutional the SCOTUS would have overturned it. Wrong again.

Considering that the Catholic church is widely considered to be the largest corporation on Earth, it isn't too far fetched to think that a corporation can become a religion. Corporatism is basically a religion on Wall Street now.

Really? I didn't know you could buy shares of Catholic stock on Wall Street. Wow! Cons know everything, huh.

Still hungover I see.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Blame Truman's generation & WWII for that...

There's plenty of blame to go around. Including the current crop of nitwits desperately trying to maintain the status quo.

Blaming "them" is what cons do. Taking "responsibility" for the mess they make is what they don't do. "Romney care" was the con baby.

Obama is a con? Who knew?

 

[bendog]

Ok. I don't know what they were thinking with that or why. It's the worst sort of corporatist nonsense.

Of course it is...it's Heritage Foundation. Duh.

The liberal plan is single payer. The Democratic plan was a Public Option. We got the GOP Heritage plan and because President Obama did it, is "socialism". Nucking Futs.

Obama had nothing, repeat nothing, to do with Obamacare.

sooo, when the gop coined the term obamacare they were just pulling our .... legs?

 

[dblack]

Ok. I don't know what they were thinking with that or why. It's the worst sort of corporatist nonsense.

Of course it is...it's Heritage Foundation. Duh.

The liberal plan is single payer. The Democratic plan was a Public Option. We got the GOP Heritage plan and because President Obama did it, is "socialism". Nucking Futs.

Obama had nothing, repeat nothing, to do with Obamacare.

The Republicans just tricked him into signing it. And all the Democrats into writing it and voting for it. ... Ok, they didn't actually write (Liz Fowler did that), or read it, but they did vote for it.