Russians Can never afford to leave an independent Ukraine

[Big Bend Texas]

Sure, there is always a choice. The Russian rule was much better than Polish, Turkish or even Austrian ones.

Eh? The Russians invaded and took Ukraine so no, there was no other choice.

Self rule seems to totally escape you as even a possibility.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

They already were a lethal threat when they had a pretty impressive nuclear arsenal that Obama talked them out of.... Geez why do I think they might regret that now?

Incorrect. They willingly gave up their nukes more than a decade before Obama was elected in exchange for the US, UK, and RU guaranteeing to protect them from invasion.

Two countries gave up their nukes and nuclear programs in the 90's based on such guarantees.

Our word will never be worth a damned thing again in nuclear negotiations as a result of how we treated Libya and Ukraine once they did so.

 

[Silver Cat]

Eh? The Russians invaded and took Ukraine so no, there was no other choice.

Self rule seems to totally escape you as even a possibility.

It wasn't that simple. Actually, significant part of Cossacks begged Russian Tzars to took them under their rule and protection, because the Polish rule and Turkish raids were much worse.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

It wasn't that simple. Actually, significant part of Cossacks begged Russian Tzars to took them under their rule and protection, because the Polish rule and Turkish raids were much worse.

Russia has invaded Ukraine four different times over the last 120 years and absorbed it into the Soviet Union by force, not because anyone invited them to.

One thing the Russians have been consistent about is the slaughter of millions of Ukrainians going back to the 19th century.

kraine has been invaded or occupied a number of times throughout its history.

Conflict	Invasion	Invading force(s)	Year	Details
Russo-Polish War (1654–1667)	Battle of Konotop	Tsardom of Russia	1659	Ukrainian Cossacks led by Ivan Vyhovsky repelled an invasion by the Russian Tsardom at Konotop.[1]: 144
Ukrainian War of Independence and Soviet–Ukrainian War (1917–1921)	1918 Soviet invasion of Ukraine	Russian SFSR	1918	Initial fighting in the war lasted from January to June of 1918, ending with the Central Powers' intervention.[1]: 350, 403
1918 Central Powers intervention in Ukraine	German Empire Austro-Hungarian Empire	Imperial German and Austro-Hungarian forces entered Ukraine to push out the Russians, as part of an agreement with the Ukrainian People's Republic.[1]: 351, 357  Occupation: Ukrainian State (1918), a German-installed government of much of Ukraine.
1919 Soviet invasion of Ukraine	Russian SFSR	1919	A full-scale invasion began in January 1919.[1]: 361
World War II (1939–1945)	Hungaro-Ukrainian War	Kingdom of Hungary	1939	The Kingdom of Hungary invaded Ukraine and annexed Transcarpathian Ukraine.[1]: 458  Occupation: Governorate of Subcarpathia (1939–1945), an autonomous region including occupied Transcarpathian Ukraine.
Soviet invasion of Poland (Ukrainian Front)	Soviet Union	The Soviet Union invaded Poland in September of 1939, extending into Western Ukraine.[1]: 454  Occupation: After the Soviet annexation of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia, the Soviet Union occupied Western Ukraine until it fell to Nazi Germany in November 1941. They retook the land in 1944.[2]: 625
Operation Barbarossa	Nazi Germany Kingdom of Romania	1941	Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, including Ukraine,[1]: 453, 460  in June of 1941 with assistance from allied Romania.[3] By November they controlled almost all of what had been Soviet Ukraine, including the portion annexed in 1939.[2]: 624  Occupations: Reichskommissariat Ukraine (1941–1944), the German occupation of most of the country.[1]: 468  Transnistria Governorate (1941–1944), the Romanian occupation of Transnistria.[3]
Russo-Ukrainian War (2014–present)	Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation	Russian Federation	2014	Russia invaded and subsequently annexed Crimea, then administered by Ukraine as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, during February–March 2014,[4][5] and also took control of part of the village of Strilkove in neighboring Kherson Oblast.[6] Occupation: The Republic of Crimea and federal city of Sevastopol (2014–present), claimed by Russia as federal subjects and considered an occupation by the government of Ukraine (as part of the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine) and by the United Nations.[7][8]
War in Donbas	After a commencement of hostilities in April 2014, Russian forces invaded the Donbas region of Ukraine in August of that year.[9][6] A report released by the Royal United Services Institute in March 2015 said that "the presence of large numbers of Russian troops on Ukrainian sovereign territory" became a "permanent feature" of the war following the invasion,[10] with regular Russian and Ukrainian forces coming into direct conflict at the Battle of Ilovaisk[11][12] and likely the Battle of Debaltseve.[13]Low-intensity fighting continued through 2022, despite the declaration of numerous ceasefires. Occupation: Ukraine considers the Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic (2014–present), separatist entities nominally independent from Russia, to be part of the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine.
2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine	2022	Russia began a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022.[14]

List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Silver Cat]

Russia has invaded Ukraine four different times over the last 120 years and absorbed it into the Soviet Union by force, not because anyone invited them to.

One thing the Russians have been consistent about is the slaughter of millions of Ukrainians going back to the 19th century.

kraine has been invaded or occupied a number of times throughout its history.

Or, to be more correct, there was a periodical process of disintegration, reintegration and civil wars for leadership and independence from non-Russain invaders (both Eastern and Western) between different Russian states and groups since, at least VIII century - the wars between Kuyavia (Kiev), Artania (Arta/Arsa - now Old Oskol), Slavia (Gardarika in Scandinavian sources).
And when the capital of the more or less united Russian state was in Kiev (so called "Kievan Rus") - Russia wasn't anything better comparing with Novgorod-, Moscow- or St. Petersburg-lead ages.

Conflict	Invasion	Invading force(s)	Year	Details
Russo-Polish War (1654–1667)	Battle of Konotop	Tsardom of Russia	1659	Ukrainian Cossacks led by Ivan Vyhovsky repelled an invasion by the Russian Tsardom at Konotop.[1]: 144
Ukrainian War of Independence and Soviet–Ukrainian War (1917–1921)	1918 Soviet invasion of Ukraine	Russian SFSR	1918	Initial fighting in the war lasted from January to June of 1918, ending with the Central Powers' intervention.[1]: 350, 403
1918 Central Powers intervention in Ukraine	German Empire Austro-Hungarian Empire	Imperial German and Austro-Hungarian forces entered Ukraine to push out the Russians, as part of an agreement with the Ukrainian People's Republic.[1]: 351, 357  Occupation: Ukrainian State (1918), a German-installed government of much of Ukraine.
1919 Soviet invasion of Ukraine	Russian SFSR	1919	A full-scale invasion began in January 1919.[1]: 361
World War II (1939–1945)	Hungaro-Ukrainian War	Kingdom of Hungary	1939	The Kingdom of Hungary invaded Ukraine and annexed Transcarpathian Ukraine.[1]: 458  Occupation: Governorate of Subcarpathia (1939–1945), an autonomous region including occupied Transcarpathian Ukraine.
Soviet invasion of Poland (Ukrainian Front)	Soviet Union	The Soviet Union invaded Poland in September of 1939, extending into Western Ukraine.[1]: 454  Occupation: After the Soviet annexation of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia, the Soviet Union occupied Western Ukraine until it fell to Nazi Germany in November 1941. They retook the land in 1944.[2]: 625
Operation Barbarossa	Nazi Germany Kingdom of Romania	1941	Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, including Ukraine,[1]: 453, 460  in June of 1941 with assistance from allied Romania.[3] By November they controlled almost all of what had been Soviet Ukraine, including the portion annexed in 1939.[2]: 624  Occupations: Reichskommissariat Ukraine (1941–1944), the German occupation of most of the country.[1]: 468  Transnistria Governorate (1941–1944), the Romanian occupation of Transnistria.[3]
Russo-Ukrainian War (2014–present)	Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation	Russian Federation	2014	Russia invaded and subsequently annexed Crimea, then administered by Ukraine as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, during February–March 2014,[4][5] and also took control of part of the village of Strilkove in neighboring Kherson Oblast.[6] Occupation: The Republic of Crimea and federal city of Sevastopol (2014–present), claimed by Russia as federal subjects and considered an occupation by the government of Ukraine (as part of the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine) and by the United Nations.[7][8]
War in Donbas	After a commencement of hostilities in April 2014, Russian forces invaded the Donbas region of Ukraine in August of that year.[9][6] A report released by the Royal United Services Institute in March 2015 said that "the presence of large numbers of Russian troops on Ukrainian sovereign territory" became a "permanent feature" of the war fo

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Or, to be more correct, there was a periodical process of disintegration, reintegration and civil wars for leadership and independence from non-Russain invaders (both Eastern and Western) between different Russian states and groups since, at least VIII century - the wars between Kuyavia (Kiev), Artania (Arta/Arsa - now Old Oskol), Slavia (Gardarika in Scandinavian sources).
And when the capital of the more or less united Russian state was in Kiev (so called "Kievan Rus") - Russia wasn't anything better comparing with Novgorod-, Moscow- or St. Petersburg-lead ages.

The discussion is about Russian Invasions of Ukraine, not internal civil strife.

Try keeping up and not deflecting.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Previous time they had lost millions of them to liberate Ukraine.

No, the Soviets lost soldiers repelling a German invasion of Russia. Then they lost hundreds of thousands conquering Eastern Europe and the Baltics which were never part of Russia or the USSR. The Ukranians originally welcomed the Germans as liberators from the horrors of Russian domination where millions were deliberately starved to death and many others displaced to other parts of the USSR to destroy any notion of Ukranian nationalism. If the Germans had even half a brain, they would have encouraged the Ukranians and gained a million or so troops instead of turning the eisatzgruppen loose to exterminate the Ukranians.

 

[Silver Cat]

The discussion is about Russian Invasions of Ukraine, not internal civil strife.

Try keeping up and not deflecting.

Ukraine (Borderland) is a part of Russia (in wider understanding of the term), which temporarily came out from Moscow control, and controlled by the EU and the UK.

 

[Silver Cat]

No, the Soviets lost soldiers repelling a German invasion of Russia.

Not only German. There was a significant part of the German-united Europe (including Spaniards, Romanians, Italians, Scandinavians and many others). And now they are repelling NATO-lead proxy invasion. 4th Reich, as they call it. Actually, it's a pretty typical situation - Napoleon wars, aka Patriotic war aka "invasion of twenty tongues", invasion of Sweden Empire, Polish invasion, Livonian wars, Northern Crusades and many others.

Then they lost hundreds of thousands conquering Eastern Europe and the Baltics which were never part of Russia or the USSR.

Actually, Baltic States were part of Russia since the Northern war against Sweden Empire and were part of the Russian cultural and political zone of influence since the very begging of their existence.

The Ukranians originally welcomed the Germans as liberators from the horrors of Russian domination where millions were deliberately starved to death and many others displaced to other parts of the USSR to destroy any notion of Ukranian nationalism.

Actually, there was German (including Austrian) influence since medieval time. And, traditionally, there were pro-German political groups. And, traditionally, Germans just used them not for the good of Ukrainian people, but for German profit.

If the Germans had even half a brain, they would have encouraged the Ukranians and gained a million or so troops instead of turning the eisatzgruppen loose to exterminate the Ukranians.

And it's a traditional fate of all German Quislings. The Germans use them, and then - leave.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Ukraine (Borderland) is a part of Russia (in wider understanding of the term), which temporarily came out from Moscow control, and controlled by the EU and the UK.

The borders of each Russia and Ukraine were fixed when the Soviet Union collapsed and both Russia and Ukraine became independent, separate countries.

Pick any map of Ukraine printed between 1990 and 2014 and see for yourself.

 

[Big Bend Texas]

And now they are repelling NATO-lead proxy invasion. 4th Reich, as they call it. Actually, it's a pretty typical situation

What the hell are you smoking?

 

[Big Bend Texas]

Why not? For absolute majority of Ukrainians Soviet Union was "liberator" and even "savior" (comparing with German or Polish slavery/genocide).

You must be completely out of your mind.

Over the last century the Russians killed millions of Ukrainians.

 

[Silver Cat]

The borders of each Russia and Ukraine were fixed when the Soviet Union collapsed and both Russia and Ukraine became independent, separate countries.

Pick any map of Ukraine printed between 1990 and 2014 and see for yourself.

Same way, NATO fixed their own borders. "No one inch eastward" they said. NATO expanded, NATO bombed Serbia and invaded Iraq, NATO countries recognized independence of Kosovo.
Same way, Russia just follow new/old rules of the game - "might is right".

 

[Silver Cat]

You must be completely out of your mind.

Over the last century the Russians killed millions of Ukrainians.

As well as Germans and Poles. As well, as the Ukrainians killed enough of Russians, Poles, Jews, Germans, etc...

 

[Silver Cat]

What the hell are you smoking?

I read Russian sources. It is really important - to understand how exactly they see the situation.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Not only German. There was a significant part of the German-united Europe (including Spaniards, Romanians, Italians, Scandinavians and many others). And now they are repelling NATO-lead proxy invasion. 4th Reich, as they call it. Actually, it's a pretty typical situation - Napoleon wars, aka Patriotic war aka "invasion of twenty tongues", invasion of Sweden Empire, Polish invasion, Livonian wars, Northern Crusades and many others.



Actually, Baltic States were part of Russia since the Northern war against Sweden Empire and were part of the Russian cultural and political zone of influence since the very begging of their existence.


Actually, there was German (including Austrian) influence since medieval time. And, traditionally, there were pro-German political groups. And, traditionally, Germans just used them not for the good of Ukrainian people, but for German profit.



And it's a traditional fate of all German Quislings. The Germans use them, and then - leave.

The invasion of the Soviet Union was German. The Germans brought in small numbers of their allies to free up more capable German troops. All the ones you listed were present in very small numbers and had negligible combat value. Spain, for instance, had ONE division on the entire Eastern Front.
As for the Baltics, are you making the claim that once conquered by Russia a country is always Russian property? Like Ukraine, the became independent countries.

 

[Mushroom]

Democracy is not a form of government that can be easily adopted.

Democracy itself is not a "form of government", and when tried it almost always fails.

The US is actually a Republic, that uses a Democratic framework. A great many other forms also use democracy, even Marxist governments.

Russia, Venezuela, North Korea, China, all use "Democracy", but it does not mean the same thing as none of them are republics.

 

[Mushroom]

I read Russian sources. It is really important - to understand how exactly they see the situation.
View attachment 625469

That is largely meaningless, as a great many countries either never adopted the Euro, or are considering leaving it. The UK was simply the first major one. And that image is wrong, because Denmark never adopted the Euro. They still use the Krone, although the Euro is accepted in most places (not unlike how most neighboring countries accept the US Dollar). Sweden also does not use the Euro, but their own Krona.

But Russia would never have adopted it, their government has always relied upon a central currency they have control over. But anybody that tries to make deep connections with various currencies is normally a fool. To see this, look no farther than the Belarus Ruble. It shares the same name and divisions of their Russian counterpart, but there the similarity ends. In fact, it is not actually connected to it in any other way, being in reality pegged to the US dollar (at roughly 3 kopeks per USD).

But like most bad attempts at propaganda, the image is wrong. But I guess for thost that are like John SNow, it works.