Russian Have Started Retreating

[gipper]

No, lies are lies and truth is truth. Gorbachev says the expansion of NATO was never discussed and you dredge up some nobody from the Reagan administration who played no role in the negotiations to contradict Gorbachev. Once again you show it is impossible for you to put up a post without telling another lie.

Check this out warmongers. This must make you so proud. The war industry loves you idiots.

Yeah this isn’t a proxy war. No way!

Zelensky to headline US defense industry conference​

Zelensky to headline US defense industry conference


WAR IS A RACKET…but statist dummies just can’t comprehend this.

 

[gipper]

But stop for a moment and ask yourself why Russia ended up imposing communism on those nations. Russia was defending herself from the most recent aggression from western Europe. One of the countless invasions the country suffered at the hands of western europeans.

Russia was invaded by Germany. That gives her no right to enslave Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

but she wants to have at least a chance to defend herself conventionally

So do her neighbors. How big a buffer zone of Russian territory should they be given?

We need to drag out this so more people get killed, but capitalism requires war so that the war industry can make big green! Yippee!!!

 

[georgephillip]

Putin is dead in the water.

Whoever takes Putin's place in Russia won't be any more sympathetic to the existence of a hostile military alliance on Russia's border.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Toddsterpatriot
Russia was invaded by Germany. That gives her no right to enslave Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Never said it does. I was just explaining why Russia's need of a buffer zone is perfectly reasonable.

but she wants to have at least a chance to defend herself conventionally

So do her neighbors. How big a buffer zone of Russian territory should they be given?

Unfortunately for them, neighboring countries can't have buffer zones without an agreement.

After having lost more than half of its territory to America Mexico would love to have thousands of miles separating it from the big neighbor from the North but Msr. Geography says it can't.

Latin American and eastern European countries are welcome to build their own armies, on their own dime, to protect themselves from their big neighbors. Just like America and Russia did.

But if they try to protect themselves on the cheap, if they allow their territories to serve the interests of foreign powers like China and America, if they rent their lands to the establishment of american or chinese military bases they have to be prepared to be treated as "oversea possessions" of that foreign power.

 

[Litwin]

Whoever takes Putin's place in Russia won't be any more sympathetic to the existence of a hostile military alliance on Russia's border.

your fav. girkin speaks

 

[Litwin]

 

[toomuchtime_]

The only one engaged in historic revisionism here is you, krichton.

When the US decided to expand NATO Russia was considered a nascent democracy in the West. That was 8 years before Putin came to power.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debate within the American government as to whether enlargement of NATO was feasible or desirable began during the George H.W. Bush administration. By mid-1992, a consensus emerged within the administration that NATO enlargement was a wise realpolitik measure to strengthen Euro-American hegemony.

Enlargement of NATO - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There was no russian autocracy, unfriendliness towards the West in 1992.

Russian imperialism, just like US imperialism, towards her neighbors is an undeniable historical fact...

But you cannot punish America or Russia for historic events that happened 50, 100 years ago. And no individual or nation should be punish because there is a probability they will committ a crime or military aggression in the future. Every judicial system in the world considers this an aberration of thought.

You point your finger to an imaginary, non-existent russian imperialism in 1992 and ignores the very real western imperialism towards Russia because let's face it, the policy of surrounding a country's border with military bases fits the definition of imperialism perfectly.

If China were setting up military bases in the Caribbean in order to surround the Gulf of Mexico everybody would be calling it what it really was: sheer, naked chinese imperialism.

America and its european allies often hide the expansion of their sphere of influence behind a moral, ideological facade (defence of democracy, human rights, genocide prevention, etc...).

The problem is they couldn't even wait for Russia to become a real autocratic state to start surrounding the country with american military bases.

Pure Putin nonsense. Article 10 of NATO's founding charter states that any European country is eligible for membership in NATO, but when Gorbachev unexpectedly dissolved the USSR, NATO had not even drawn up criteria for membership.

The expansion of NATO was not driven by any US or western European designs against Russia but by the newly liberated eastern European states clambering for membership. It took NATO until the late 1990's to draw up criteria for membership and then the question was, should NATO treat these newly liberated eastern European states as truly independent, sovereign states or should NATO, as you and Putin demand, treat them as vassal states of Russia with no right to decide if they can join NATO; so much for Russia's experiment in democracy. The very fact that Russia demands it should decide what these former soviet states should do tells them that they need the protection of NATO membership.

Again, NATO expansioin was driven by the newly liberated former soviet states and not by the US or western Europe.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Check this out warmongers. This must make you so proud. The war industry loves you idiots.

Yeah this isn’t a proxy war. No way!

Zelensky to headline US defense industry conference​

Zelensky to headline US defense industry conference


WAR IS A RACKET…but statist dummies just can’t comprehend this.

War is a racket? So you are saying that the prospect of profits is what motivated Russia to start this war in Ukraine?

 

[Litwin]

We need to drag out this so more people get killed, but capitalism requires war so that the war industry can make big green! Yippee!!!

Whoever takes Putin's place in Russia won't be any more sympathetic to the existence of a hostile military alliance on Russia's border.

jo, you muslims´holes

you he- girls must love this video :

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
The expansion of NATO was not driven by any US or western European designs against Russia but by the newly liberated eastern European states clambering for membership.

Again, NATO expansioin was driven by the newly liberated former soviet states and not by the US or western Europe.

Sure, the expansion had nothing to do with America's geopolitical interest of extending its military presence to Russia's borders, it was a purely humanitarian act to help eastern Europe.

America puts Mother Theresa to shame...

Originally posted by toomuchtime
The very fact that Russia demands it should decide what these former soviet states should do tells them that they need the protection of NATO membership.

When what eastern european countries do with their sovereignty involves renting their territories to promote foreign interests and establish american military bases near Russia's borders it becomes very much a russian problem.

For much less than military encirclement America disregarded Grenada status as a "truly independent, sovereign state" and treated the island as a "vassal" invading it in 83.

 

[gipper]

jo, you muslims´holes

you he- girls must love this video :

?

 

[gipper]

War is a racket? So you are saying that the prospect of profits is what motivated Russia to start this war in Ukraine?

No. War by the USG is a racket. You know this right?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Sure, the expansion had nothing to do with America's geopolitical interest of extending its military presence to Russia's borders, it was a purely humanitarian act to help eastern Europe.

America puts Mother Theresa to shame...



When what eastern european countries do with their sovereignty involves renting their territories to promote foreign interests and establish american military bases near Russia's borders it becomes very much a russian problem.

For much less than military encirclement America disregarded Grenada status as a "truly independent, sovereign state" and treated the island as a "vassal" invading it in 83.

Again, the US has only one vote in NATO so it cannot determine NATO policy, and each member state determines for itself what military structures it will allow on its land so the expansion had nothing to do with any US policy decisions. The former soviet states flocked to NATO because of Russia's policy decisions past and present.

Russia's only problem is its own behavior, which has persuaded those countries that know Russia best to flock to NATO for protection from Russia. The very fact that Russia claims the right to dictate to former soviet states what their foreign policy should be proves to them they need the protection of NATO from Russia, and now Putin has stupidly persuaded two more states to join NATO. Stupid Russian imperialists like Putin are Russia's worst enemies and are in the process of destroying Russia's future.

 

[toomuchtime_]

No. War by the USG is a racket. You know this right?

But how can that be? The US is not at war so you must have meant war by Russia is a racket.

 

[gipper]

But how can that be? The US is not at war so you must have meant war by Russia is a racket.

Lol. A proxy war is still war. You know what proxy war is right?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Lol. A proxy war is still war. You know what proxy war is right?

Clearly, you don't know what it means. The war was started by Russia and America's only role has been to help Ukraine to defend itself against Russian aggression. In fact, before Russia invaded Ukraine, the US made strong efforts to persuade Russia not to start this war. Pull yourself together, Putin is on his way out and you don't have to tout his bullshit any longer.

 

[Litwin]

?

 

[Litwin]

The war was started by Russia and America's only role has been to help Ukraine to defend itself against Russian aggression

yes, moscow sucks

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
The former soviet states flocked to NATO because of Russia's policy decisions past and present.

Russia's only problem is its own behavior, which has persuaded those countries that know Russia best to flock to NATO for protection from Russia.

The irony of it all is the fact that eastern european countries could only flock to NATO precisely because of Russia's behavior, because of a russian leader who dismantled the Iron Curtain without bloodshed.

Russia extended an olive branch to the West and got vindictiveness, Cold War revanchism in return.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The irony of it all is the fact that eastern european countries could only flock to NATO precisely because of Russia's behavior, because of a russian leader who dismantled the Iron Curtain without bloodshed.

Russia extended an olive branch to the West and got vindictiveness, Cold War revanchism in return.

More Putin nonsense. Gorbachev dissolved the USSR because it was no longer viable and the west did what it could to help Russia try to become a democracy with a free market economy, but even as Russia experimented with democracy, strong nationalist forces led by people like Putin tried to undermine those efforts and to regain dominion over the former soviet states. The US was wise not to trust Putin and if France and Germany had been wiser this war would never have happened.