Russian apologist need to read this

[para bellum]

Each of the nations that joined NATO did it entirely voluntarily.

You are completely misreading my post, or we are on a totally different planet.

I was pointing out that there were formal agreements that were made long after whatever informal promises were made to Gorbachev- specifically the 1994 and 1997 agreements between Russian and Ukraine, and Russia and NATO. Those must supersede any verbal assurances made to Gorbachev.

Otherwise no agreements are ever worth anything. In a sense all agreements can be construed as promises made and broken- you make agreements to change the status quo.

I don't doubt the doubt the authenticity of the memo that was posted, it doesn't matter if it's authentic or not. There were things that happened later on that make it irrelevant.

 

[Mushroom]

I was pointing out that there were formal agreements that were made long after whatever informal promises were made to Gorbachev- specifically the 1994 and 1997 agreements between Russian and Ukraine, and Russia and NATO. Those must supersede any verbal assurances made to Gorbachev.

Yes, and?

I consider those all rather moot, as in 1994 and 1997 none of the members of the CIS had any interest in leaving the CIS and joining NATO.

However, since 1994 and 1997 several members have left the CIS, because Russia just seems to have this thing for attacking their "allies" and trying to absorb them back into Russia.

And yes, they are only agreements. Not treaties, not formal mandates that are signed and become part of law among and between the nations. Agreements, that are only valid for as long as the two countries that make them are continuing what they were doing at the time. And at that time, Russia was not the aggressive and expansionist nation that it is today.

However, Russia did have such formal and legal agreements with both Georgia and Ukraine. Formal signed and ratified treaties, that they would respect the borders of the other, and come to their aid if attacked. And guess who violated each of those?

As far as I am concerned, once Russia started to take bites out of their allies, any promises made to not expand became null and void. Ukraine had absolutely no interest in joining NATO, and actively resisted for decades. Until Russia started taking bites out of them.

Hell, just look at what the average Ukrainian thinks, then and now. At the time you are talking about, less than 20% of the people in Ukraine wanted to join NATO. At the start of this month, a new poll showed that a staggering 83% of the people in Ukraine want to join NATO. In February of this year, that was only 62%. And in 2014 before Russia bit off the Crimea, that was only 41%. And back in 2012, it was only 28% that wanted to join NATO. Each time Russia threatens Ukraine, that has only pushed them farther and farther into the arms of NATO. They themselves have caused Ukraine to look to NATO. Russia itself, and nobody else.

Because they now know that Russia will not protect them, in fact it will only attack them. And they need to join somebody, or they will stand alone.

 

[Oddball]

View attachment 712775

 

[para bellum]

Yes, and?

Well, you are trying to convince me to take a position I already hold.

Carry on, I guess....

 

[MisterBeale]

Did you agree with Putin when he said the collapse of the USSR was a tragedy?

Post an English translation of the speech please.

 

[MisterBeale]

Amazing. You are absolutely following the Russian party line there, good Comrade.

The thing is, nobody else calls what happened in 2014 a coup. Only the Russians. Of course, that is because they were pissed that their half-puppet leader actually did what his people wanted, and tried to forge closer ties to the EU. However, then Russia started to threaten Ukraine, and he backed down and reverse course. Which caused mass riots as that is not what the people wanted. And of course, it did not help that the Pro-Russia faction tried to pass repressive anti-protest laws, which lost the Pro-Russian faction even more support.

Which saw him removed from office, and the Constitution restored.

Oh, and to give an idea how bullshit the argument that there was a coup was, simply look at what happened. President Yanukovych and Russia scream it was a coup, that he was illegally removed from office, and all kinds of nonsense. But in the simple reality, he fled the country long before anything like that was done. He left Ukraine and fled to Russia on 21 February 2014. IN essence, he abandoned his post as President.

The next day the Parliament held a "vote of no confidence", which is basically the first step of removing a head of state. And he was not there to take part in the hearings. And under law, he indeed should have then been run through the Impeachment process. But the problem with impeachment when you do not even have a head of state because he fled the country, is how do you have a trial?

And the same thing would probably happen in most countries. Just suppose President Biden was in some scandal right now, and rather than allow the impeachment process to happen he left the country and moved to Jamaica. A nation can't have an absentee leader, and the proper action should be as Ukraine did. Declare the post as abandoned, then either follow the line of secession, or hold a new election.

And in this case, even that could not happen. The Prime Minister had already resigned, and also fled to Russia. In fact, a hell of a lot of the top leadership in Ukraine on 21 and 22 February up and left the country and moved to Russia. The reality is, that Russia is still pissed because they realized that even with a submissive and passive government in charge of the country, the people did not want that. And like Stalin and Hitler before him, he expected his forces to me seen as liberators and welcomed into Ukraine with open arms.

Which very obviously has not happened at all.

It's funny, as almost every single time you say something, it follows almost exactly the official Russian Party Line.

Very good, Comrade.

 

[MisterBeale]

Should we let Putin re-occupy all the old Warsaw Pact countries?

Post proof that he has that intention, and that this isn't just your fevered paranoia.

 

[Mushroom]

"Tell them they are being attacked".

So in other words, Russia is not attacking them? And Russia did not attack them in 2014?

You see, that might actually be a valid point, if the world has not seen Russia attacking them.

 

[skye]

Enough for heaven's sake !!!! ENOUGH!

 

[miketx]

Russian troops 'gang-raped Ukrainian mum before attacking her daughter, 4'

Harrowing testimonies of rape and torture have come out in a new UN report.

metro.co.uk

Putin is a war criminal. The crimes are piling up. His desperation is growing as he tries to stifle any opposition in Russia.

TV tell you that?

 

[MisterBeale]

"Tell them they are being attacked".

So in other words, Russia is not attacking them? And Russia did not attack them in 2014?

You see, that might actually be a valid point, if the world has not seen Russia attacking them.

apsa (iPosterSessions - an aMuze! Interactive system)

apsa2018-apsa.ipostersessions.com

The Buried Maidan Massacre and Its Misrepresentation by the West

The new Ukrainian government is faced with reopening an inquiry into evidence of an organized mass killing in Kiev that Poroshenko stonewalled. Ivan Katchanovski investigates. By Ivan Katchanovski Special to Consortium News Five years ago, the Maidan massacre in Kiev, Ukraine, of Feb. 18-20, 2014

consortiumnews.com

 

[gipper]

Amazing. You are absolutely following the Russian party line there, good Comrade.

The thing is, nobody else calls what happened in 2014 a coup. Only the Russians. Of course, that is because they were pissed that their half-puppet leader actually did what his people wanted, and tried to forge closer ties to the EU. However, then Russia started to threaten Ukraine, and he backed down and reverse course. Which caused mass riots as that is not what the people wanted. And of course, it did not help that the Pro-Russia faction tried to pass repressive anti-protest laws, which lost the Pro-Russian faction even more support.

Which saw him removed from office, and the Constitution restored.

Oh, and to give an idea how bullshit the argument that there was a coup was, simply look at what happened. President Yanukovych and Russia scream it was a coup, that he was illegally removed from office, and all kinds of nonsense. But in the simple reality, he fled the country long before anything like that was done. He left Ukraine and fled to Russia on 21 February 2014. IN essence, he abandoned his post as President.

The next day the Parliament held a "vote of no confidence", which is basically the first step of removing a head of state. And he was not there to take part in the hearings. And under law, he indeed should have then been run through the Impeachment process. But the problem with impeachment when you do not even have a head of state because he fled the country, is how do you have a trial?

And the same thing would probably happen in most countries. Just suppose President Biden was in some scandal right now, and rather than allow the impeachment process to happen he left the country and moved to Jamaica. A nation can't have an absentee leader, and the proper action should be as Ukraine did. Declare the post as abandoned, then either follow the line of secession, or hold a new election.

And in this case, even that could not happen. The Prime Minister had already resigned, and also fled to Russia. In fact, a hell of a lot of the top leadership in Ukraine on 21 and 22 February up and left the country and moved to Russia. The reality is, that Russia is still pissed because they realized that even with a submissive and passive government in charge of the country, the people did not want that. And like Stalin and Hitler before him, he expected his forces to me seen as liberators and welcomed into Ukraine with open arms.

Which very obviously has not happened at all.

It's funny, as almost every single time you say something, it follows almost exactly the official Russian Party Line.

Very good, Comrade.

Hahahahahaha.

We must always support the State, no matter what. Anyone who criticizes the State is a TRAITOR!

Heil Hitler!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Post an English translation of the speech please.

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Post proof that he has that intention, and that this isn't just your fevered paranoia.

If he said he wanted to, would you agree?

Don't be a *****, tell me how you feel.

 

[gipper]

If he said he wanted to, would you agree?

Don't be a *****, tell me how you feel.

We’re supposed to believe the Russian army can’t even take out Ukraine, but Putin wants to conquer the world.

We’re suppose to believe Putin is a madman, but he’d never use nukes.

 

[Mushroom]

View attachment 713704

Wow, you can post funny pictures.

Here, let me post one of my own, but it ain't funny.

 

[MisterBeale]

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

Russian President Putin Delivers State of the Nation Address

April 25, 2005

irp.fas.org

". . . Sometimes we hear the opinion that since the Russian people has been silent for ages, it does not know or need freedom and for this reason our citizens are said to need constant supervision from above. I would like to return those who think so to reality, to the real world.

Let me remind you again of how modern Russian history began. First of all, it should be acknowledged, and I have spoken of this before, that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century. And for the Russian people, it was a real drama. Tens of millions of our citizens and fellow-countrymen found themselves outside the Russian Federation.

Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration spread to Russia itself. Citizens' savings lost their value. The old ideals were destroyed. Many institutions were disbanded or simply hastily reformed. The country's integrity was disturbed by a terrorist intervention and the ensuing capitulation of Khasavyurt [Chechen peace deal of mid-1990s brokered by the late Aleksandr Lebed and the late Aslan Maskhadov].

With unrestricted control over information flows, groups of oligarchs served exclusively their own corporate interests. Mass poverty started to be accepted as the norm. All this evolved against a background of the most severe economic recession, unstable finances and paralysis in the social sphere.

It seemed to many at the time that our young democracy was not the continuation of Russian statehood, but its final collapse, the prolonged death throes of the Soviet system. Those who thought so were mistaken.. . . "

Just as it is true, I loath the global American empire? It is also true, that its eventual collapse, will definitely be a tragedy for many millions of stranded Americans, and mean mass death and poverty for many millions more. This cannot be logically argued.

If you want to just read mass media war propaganda out of context? And not actually GIVE ME, what I asked for? To read it, IN CONTEXT? That is on you.

It seems you NEED an enemy, just like these lefty lunatics need to twist Trump into something he is clearly not. YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED!

If you can't trust the cabal media to tell you the truth about Trump, why in the hell would you trust them to tell you the truth about Putin or this war? You do know, that the editorializing on this speech you linked? IS part of a consortium that owns GE, which is one of the largest war manufacturers, right?

 

[Mushroom]

apsa (iPosterSessions - an aMuze! Interactive system)

apsa2018-apsa.ipostersessions.com

The Buried Maidan Massacre and Its Misrepresentation by the West

The new Ukrainian government is faced with reopening an inquiry into evidence of an organized mass killing in Kiev that Poroshenko stonewalled. Ivan Katchanovski investigates. By Ivan Katchanovski Special to Consortium News Five years ago, the Maidan massacre in Kiev, Ukraine, of Feb. 18-20, 2014

consortiumnews.com

And what does that have to do with Russia invading Ukraine twice?

Come on now, did Russia attack them twice, or not?

YOu are the one over and over that insists that there was no invasion, now back up your claims and stop spinning in circles.

 

[Mushroom]

We must always support the State, no matter what. Anyone who criticizes the State is a TRAITOR!

Heil Hitler!

Yes, we know you are a fascist. No reason to rub it in all of our faces.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Not really. A hell of a lot that I know hate his guts and want to see him crushed.

Most of those rooting for him have other agendas

I’m very conservative and I’d happily tie a noose on Putin and pull the lever on the trap door. Of course that would be after a scrupulously fair trial. He’s guilty of so many illegal aggressions, actions and war crimes that any even remotely fair jury would convict him in a heartbeat.