Ringo
Platinum Member
Do you know the easiest way for the mafia to gain “protection” over a shop? When a member of the mafia becomes the head of the shop.
Russia is basically at war with NATO
- Thread starter frigidweirdo
- Start date
And whatever Serbia (Kosovo is Serbia, you know) or China (and Taiwan is a part of China) do inside their own borders is no business of America, right?
May be, formally, no. But there is no any possible way for any official or unofficial American politician to stop American volunteers from helping their Canadian brothers. It would be political suicide. What is, may be, even more important - the USA can't allow Canada to join Shanghai block and deploy Russian and Chinese medium range missiles there. Any POTUS trying to ignore this threat will be overthrown (and, likely, killed) by his own Generals and backroom boys.
And if the Mexicans would attack English speaking colonist in Texas (which was a part of Mexico) the USA wouldn't ever attack Mexico? It wasn't business of America, was it?
And people of Donbass asked Russia for the protection from Kievan regime. And Baltic Russians will ask for protection from Baltic Neo-Nazi regimes. And Hungary, Slovenia and Slovakia will ask for protection from NATO. Even US democrats or Californian separtatists might ask Russia and China for protection from Washington.
But if the US is in war with Russia, NATO doesn't have a chance, either.
Meathead
Diamond Member
Not sure what that's supposed to mean.
The USA hardly can win a nuclear war with Russia, and even lesser can protect European part of NATO from Russian nukes. So NATO will be destroyed in both scenarios (with or without american participation).
Meathead
Diamond Member
I don't know if anyone can win a nuclear war between superpowers, but at this point there is only one superpower and it ain't Russia. China has replaced Russia as the leading candidate.
That's what MAD was all about.
It depends mostly on your definitions of the terms "victory" and "prevailing" but Russia can defeat the USA (meaning elimination of the US nuclear forces and threatening to eliminate cities) and pay relatively small and acceptable price (lesser than 20 mln killed).
MAD is quite obsolete conception. And even back in 60s it was more of propagandistic cliché rather than actual nuclear posture.
Nowadays, in actual nuclear posture, America is not going to commit murder-suicide even if the deterrence failed.
Deadstick
Platinum Member
We know they have not been forced but when was the last time any of them had a referendum among the people to decide? some of their leaders will have been bribed to join, at the end of WW2 the Soviet Union allowed Finland to exist as a Country didn't occupy it as they could have, as long as Finland didn't become a stooge of foreign powers and remained neutral which they did for 80 years and had reasonable relations with the Soviets and later Russia, then they went mad and decided to become an enemy again against Russia and a US vassal, go figure.
Meathead
Diamond Member
I can tell you America is not going to initiate a nuclear conflict, but if NATO countries are attacked, European Russia and most of the rest of Europe will lay in rubble while America will survive.
I hope and doubt that will come to pass.
Of course you can tell it. You can tell a lot of things. But how much of you're telling us is truth? How many American nukes will survive after sophisticated and coordinated nuclear attack from Russia? How many of survived US nukes will be able to come through Russian ABD? How many Russians might be killed by those few warheads if Russia won initiative and already had evacuated and sheltered their state-essential population? Will the USA retaliate (and commit murder-suicide) if Russia suggests rather generous peace terms?
What would ordinary Europeans prefer - to live under Russian control or to die being "defended" by Americans?
Deadstick
Platinum Member
That is a very good analogy, nice shop you have here, it would be a shame if something happened to it.
Meathead
Diamond Member
70% of the US's nuclear triad are in nuclear ballistic submarines. For all you know they could be in the Baltic, off Vladivostok or in the Arctic. Good luck with that.
Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia
Ohio-class submarine - Wikipedia
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Submarine is a bubble of air in the water. You can't easily hide it, because it reflects all sounds (even natural ones). All you need is good sensors, good communications and good computing. And all those things are pretty good nowadays.70% of the US's nuclear triad are in nuclear ballistic submarines. For all you know they could be in the Baltic, off Vladivostok or in the Arctic. Good luck with that.
Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Ohio-class submarine - Wikipedia
AI could cut a submarine’s survival chance to 5%: Chinese defence scientists
Era of ‘invisible’ submarines ending with next-gen tech that could prevent one in 20 from escaping attack.
www.scmp.com
With every submarine having 5% chances of survival and with only four-six SSBNs on the hard duty the chances to wipe out all of them by the first strike are pretty good. Even if one of them survived - the USA never tried launch all missiles in one salvo. So, Russian ABD will have all chances to intercept all incoming missiles. Anyway. If the Russians already wipe out significant part of US nukes, American retaliation might kill some Russians, but then Russians will destroy seven American cities for every damaged Russian city and then they will demand unconditional surrender (or America will suffer virtual annihilation). So, Americans might decide not to retaliate, lost Europe, Alaska and California but save the USA and American people.
Operation "Atrina" during which five Soviet Victor-class attacking submarines (with Ritza-devices) revealed positions of patrolling Ohio-class submarines took place in 1987. Since then progress in sensors and computing was much more significant than progress in stealthing of SSBNs.
I don't say that such operations are everyday practice (but who actually knows?) but it is not impossible, and it is much simplier than, say, was Pearl Harbour attack.
I don't say that such operations are everyday practice (but who actually knows?) but it is not impossible, and it is much simplier than, say, was Pearl Harbour attack.
AlexanderPK
Gold Member
- May 23, 2017
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As Nuland once said, "**** the EU". They'll just ditch it, in case Russia blows some major European capitals, and start a happy coexistence with Russia ever after.Submarine is a bubble of air in the water. You can't easily hide it, because it reflects all sounds (even natural ones). All you need is good sensors, good communications and good computing. And all those things are pretty good nowadays.
AI could cut a submarine’s survival chance to 5%: Chinese defence scientists
Era of ‘invisible’ submarines ending with next-gen tech that could prevent one in 20 from escaping attack.
With every submarine having 5% chances of survival and with only four-six SSBNs on the hard duty the chances to wipe out all of them by the first strike are pretty good. Even if one of them survived - the USA never tried launch all missiles in one salvo. So, Russian ABD will have all chances to intercept all incoming missiles. Anyway. If the Russians already wipe out significant part of US nukes, American retaliation might kill some Russians, but then Russians will destroy seven American cities for every damaged Russian city and then they will demand unconditional surrender (or America will suffer virtual annihilation). So, Americans might decide not to retaliate, lost Europe, Alaska and California but save the USA and American people.
Meathead
Diamond Member
God, I hope you aren't a strategic advisor to Putin unless you want an end to Russia as we know it. The retaliation for a Russian nuclear strike would devastate the country in two shakes of a yak's tail. Only the trans-Urals would survive.Submarine is a bubble of air in the water. You can't easily hide it, because it reflects all sounds (even natural ones). All you need is good sensors, good communications and good computing. And all those things are pretty good nowadays.
AI could cut a submarine’s survival chance to 5%: Chinese defence scientists
Era of ‘invisible’ submarines ending with next-gen tech that could prevent one in 20 from escaping attack.
With every submarine having 5% chances of survival and with only four-six SSBNs on the hard duty the chances to wipe out all of them by the first strike are pretty good. Even if one of them survived - the USA never tried launch all missiles in one salvo. So, Russian ABD will have all chances to intercept all incoming missiles. Anyway. If the Russians already wipe out significant part of US nukes, American retaliation might kill some Russians, but then Russians will destroy seven American cities for every damaged Russian city and then they will demand unconditional surrender (or America will suffer virtual annihilation). So, Americans might decide not to retaliate, lost Europe, Alaska and California but save the USA and American people.
Obviously, we won't start with capitals. There are pretty nice nuclear bases and other military installations.
Actually, "Russia as you know it" never existed. And no, as the EU openly declared "decolonisation of Russia" as their strategic goal, fighting back might become the only option to save "Russia as Russians want to see it".
Really? Ok. You are suffering coordinated sophisticated attack from Russia, China and North Korea. Most of your silos, bombers and submarines are eliminated by their first strike (like in "First Strike" (1979) movie). You still have two Ohio-class submarines in Atlantic (with 15 minutes of preparation to launch and 45 minutes of flight time), 20 Trident II missiles (with 3 100 kt W76-1 warhead each) each. It gives you 120 warheads totally. Moscow's ABD can intercept 100 warheads with high certainty and up to 200 warheads with moderate certainty. So, if you retaliate - you'll kill some Russians, but no more than 10 mln. Likely - lesser than 1 mln. And as Russians took initiative - they already have state-essential personal and members of their families evacuated and sheltered.
Russia is big. Good luck with destruction of it with mere few hundred warheads. And don't forget about China, Europe, India and other countries who will come after you when you are running out of nukes.
AlexanderPK
Gold Member
- May 23, 2017
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That too but it would be a shame to omit Berlin and say, who's the next loudest there, Warsaw? To remind the suckers what the real pain feels like.
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