Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Sixties Fan]

Israel goes around Abbas to help provide electricity to Gaza ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[Coyote]

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

 

[rylah]

Hamas offers to export Qassam rockets to any Arabs willing to shoot them at Israel



Hamas official Fathi Hammad said that the terror group is s ready to export Qassam rockets to Arab armies in order "to fight the Zionist entity."

Hammad said that the rocket is comparable in quality to those produced by other international military rocket factories.

Exporting them might be a little difficult, since any exports would have to go through either Israel, through tunnels to Egypt or through the heavily-patrolled sea. Egypt would not take kindly to any rockets being smuggled into the Sinai while the army battles the Islamic State there.

 

[Coyote]

Jkhffu

Hamas offers to export Qassam rockets to any Arabs willing to shoot them at Israel



Hamas official Fathi Hammad said that the terror group is s ready to export Qassam rockets to Arab armies in order "to fight the Zionist entity."

Hammad said that the rocket is comparable in quality to those produced by other international military rocket factories.

Exporting them might be a little difficult, since any exports would have to go through either Israel, through tunnels to Egypt or through the heavily-patrolled sea. Egypt would not take kindly to any rockets being smuggled into the Sinai while the army battles the Islamic State there.

And that is why Hamas is consideted a terrorrist organization.

 

[Shusha]

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews. While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.

 

[rylah]

Abbas has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, goes on TV blaming the Jews for Hitlers' actions.
Funded the Munich Olympic massacre.
His ambassador openly demands a Jew-free state.

Much different?

 

[rylah]

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with -- YOU?

Where ARE the "Palestinians"? 1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?

What the hell are you talking about? All Palestinians. That is what I am referring to. And I have not said anything about torturing or tormenting so do not put words in my mouth. I have also consistently said that Israel lacks a negotiating partner that speaks for all Palestinians so would you stop putting words in my mouth?

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.

The strategy is to pull Arab states into the picture for a regional agreement.
For that each player has to be given proportionate position, according to their real weight and potential for normalization, making the Palis last on the list for having nothing to offer, but patent disruption of any notion to normalization.

Or did You think it was all done without cooperation?

 

[Coyote]

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews. While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.

Thank you.

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.

Pretty heinious comments have been made all around. Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's. Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs. Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt. There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role. Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.

 

[Coyote]

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with -- YOU?

Where ARE the "Palestinians"? 1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?

What the hell are you talking about? All Palestinians. That is what I am referring to. And I have not said anything about torturing or tormenting so do not put words in my mouth. I have also consistently said that Israel lacks a negotiating partner that speaks for all Palestinians so would you stop putting words in my mouth?

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.

The strategy is to pull Arab states into the picture for a regional agreement.
For that each player has to be given proportionate position, according to their real weight and potential for normalization, making the Palis last on the list for having nothing to offer, but patent disruption of any notion to normalization.

Or did You think it was all done without cooperation?

What is the Trump Administration doing towards that strategy and where is it articulated?

Trump has insulted and distanced from many key allies in his America First ideology - he thinks America can do it better alone. Why would you expect THIS endeavor to be any different? China is increasing it's global powerhouse, NK is laughing at us as Trump proclaims they are no longer a nuclear menace, and Russia? Is being Russia. Another unfettered wannabe power broker. Why do you expect a different plan here?

P.S. I don't disagree with the strategy for pulling Arab states and Israel in a regional agreement - there is no other effective long turm solution. But I'm not seeing that.

 

[Coyote]

Abbas has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, goes on TV blaming the Jews for Hitlers' actions.
Funded the Munich Olympic massacre.
His ambassador openly demands a Jew-free state.

Much different?

Yes much different.

 

[Sixties Fan]

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews. While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.

Thank you.

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.

Pretty heinious comments have been made all around. Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's. Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs. Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt. There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role. Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.

You do not seem to know the Nazi history of the Palestinians.
When the Muslims call the Israelis Nazis, they are not telling the truth.
When Israel calls the Palestinians Nazis, although there aren't that many who might do that, that comes not only from the Arab Palestinians history with Nazi Germany, but many of their actions and words which continue to be like those of the Nazis.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

 

[rylah]

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

I would suggest he start by not throwing the Palestinians under the bus.

You assume someone owes them something, what a rude awakening.
He merely withheld money from a dysfunctional govt that was not in anyway friendly to the US.

 

[Coyote]

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews. While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.

Thank you.

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.

Pretty heinious comments have been made all around. Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's. Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs. Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt. There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role. Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.

You do not seem to know the Nazi history of the Palestinians.
When the Muslims call the Israelis Nazis, they are not telling the truth.
When Israel calls the Palestinians Nazis, although there aren't that many who might do that, that comes not only from the Arab Palestinians history with Nazi Germany, but many of their actions and words which continue to be like those of the Nazis.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

Many of the Jews in the actions that led to the founding of Israel were terrorists. Does that make it accurate to call Israel a terrorist regime or to call Israeli Jews terrorists today? No.

Comparing the Palestinians today to Nazi's is the same and serves no useful purporses. You want to have your cake and eat it to - you can call the Palestinians Nazi's but don't you dare call the Israeli's similar serious insults.

 

[Indeependent]

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews. While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.

Thank you.

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.

Pretty heinious comments have been made all around. Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's. Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs. Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt. There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role. Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.

You do not seem to know the Nazi history of the Palestinians.
When the Muslims call the Israelis Nazis, they are not telling the truth.
When Israel calls the Palestinians Nazis, although there aren't that many who might do that, that comes not only from the Arab Palestinians history with Nazi Germany, but many of their actions and words which continue to be like those of the Nazis.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

Many of the Jews in the actions that led to the founding of Israel were terrorists. Does that make it accurate to call Israel a terrorist regime or to call Israeli Jews terrorists today? No.

Comparing the Palestinians today to Nazi's is the same and serves no useful purporses. You want to have your cake and eat it to - you can call the Palestinians Nazi's but don't you dare call the Israeli's similar serious insults.

Can you name these Jewish terrorists from 60-70 years ago?
Most of the land was purchased from Arab nomads by Jews, especially the Rothschilds.

 

[rylah]

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with -- YOU?

Where ARE the "Palestinians"? 1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?

What the hell are you talking about? All Palestinians. That is what I am referring to. And I have not said anything about torturing or tormenting so do not put words in my mouth. I have also consistently said that Israel lacks a negotiating partner that speaks for all Palestinians so would you stop putting words in my mouth?

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.

The strategy is to pull Arab states into the picture for a regional agreement.
For that each player has to be given proportionate position, according to their real weight and potential for normalization, making the Palis last on the list for having nothing to offer, but patent disruption of any notion to normalization.

Or did You think it was all done without cooperation?

What is the Trump Administration doing towards that strategy and where is it articulated?

Trump has insulted and distanced from many key allies in his America First ideology - he thinks America can do it better alone. Why would you expect THIS endeavor to be any different? China is increasing it's global powerhouse, NK is laughing at us as Trump proclaims they are no longer a nuclear menace, and Russia? Is being Russia. Another unfettered wannabe power broker. Why do you expect a different plan here?

P.S. I don't disagree with the strategy for pulling Arab states and Israel in a regional agreement - there is no other effective long turm solution. But I'm not seeing that.

No, no ,no - keep me out of Your domestic issues.
Conflating the issue with China and Russia, or with Your projections of his personality won't help either.

You're way over the place, I was specific.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

And Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization. What does the governing body of WB say?

What genocide are the Palestinians committing?

My original point in all this was that the blockade serves to protect Israel and her citizens from the government of Gaza which is a terrorist organization voicing genocidal tendencies towards Jews. While flacalten was pointing out that it doesn't solve anything in the long run, it does serve a vital purpose with respect to the safety of the Jewish people.

As you have pointed out several times on this thread, Gaza and the WB are very different, yes, should be handled differently.

Thank you.

That said, Abbas and his advisers have made comments, particularly concerning the Temple Mount, which are heinous, comparing Israel to the Inquisition and the Nazis.

Pretty heinious comments have been made all around. Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's. Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs. Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt. There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role. Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.

You do not seem to know the Nazi history of the Palestinians.
When the Muslims call the Israelis Nazis, they are not telling the truth.
When Israel calls the Palestinians Nazis, although there aren't that many who might do that, that comes not only from the Arab Palestinians history with Nazi Germany, but many of their actions and words which continue to be like those of the Nazis.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

Many of the Jews in the actions that led to the founding of Israel were terrorists. Does that make it accurate to call Israel a terrorist regime or to call Israeli Jews terrorists today? No.

Comparing the Palestinians today to Nazi's is the same and serves no useful purporses. You want to have your cake and eat it to - you can call the Palestinians Nazi's but don't you dare call the Israeli's similar serious insults.

Being called a terrorist, while defending themselves from barbarian Arabs, and uncaring English, is not the same as people from a religion, taught to hate you, and intent in never wanting you to have your own country on your own ancient homeland ARE two totally different issues.

You do not realize that the Arabs from 1920 on have been wanting to not only destroy Israel but kill, or subjugate all the Jews, just as they had them before......as second class citizens known as Dhimmis.

Your knowledge of history continues to be thin.

The Palestinians today are not Nazis.
They are a totally different group of terrorists, like the Nazis, who want to have power over land which does not belong to them, and over the indigenous people on those lands.

The ones who started with the Nazi comparison were the Arab Palestinians.

They will use any comparison against the Jews and Israel which will help make them look like the victims they are truly not.

 

[rylah]

Abbas has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, goes on TV blaming the Jews for Hitlers' actions.
Funded the Munich Olympic massacre.
His ambassador openly demands a Jew-free state.

Much different?

Yes much different.

Bad cop worse cop, one is a Caliph other is a Socialist Nazi - same goals regarding me and my people.

Wanna try again?

 

[Shusha]

Pretty heinious comments have been made all around. Netanyahu's comparison of the Palestinians to Nazi's. Ayelet Shaked, referring to Palestinian children as snakes and that the mother's, neighbors and families of terrorists should be exterminated (a genocidal tendancy). You have Avignor Lieberman calling for the beheading of "disloyal" Israeli Arabs.

Sure. But here's the difference. In Israel, that kind of rhetoric is near universally rejected and condemned. Israelis see that sort of rhetoric for the evil that it is.

In Palestine, that kind of rhetoric is supported and celebrated and leads to Arabs murdering Jews -- climbing into the bedroom windows of 13 year old girls and stabbing them; entering homes and murdering whole families; stabbing people in grocery stores and at falafel stands. (Yes, I am aware of the two Israeli exceptions).

 

[Shusha]

Increasingly intolerant rhetoric abounds on both sides and eventually, both sides will be so backed into their respective positions it will erupt. There is NO ONE to tone it down, no one to moderate either side anymore - the US has abandoned that role. Given what is going on throughout the ME - from the abandonment of the Iran deal, the increasingly confrontational rhetoric, multiple failing states (Libya, Iraq, Yeman) and civil wars (Syria) - this kind of rhetoric is not good from either side.

The rhetoric is the symptom of the problem, not the cause of it. And yep, I've said it for at least a year now, there is a regional inter-Arab + Israel war coming. The Palestinians are on the wrong side of the war and they are going to take the greater portion of the ugly.

Personally, I am of the opinion that Israel (and Trump) is not opposed to war. The mood is to get the status quo done with and move on to whatever permanent solution can be forced. They won't start a war. They won't encourage it even, but if it comes, the plans are in place. They need a war to create a solution. If that makes sense.

 

[flacaltenn]

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with -- YOU?

Where ARE the "Palestinians"? 1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?

What the hell are you talking about? All Palestinians. That is what I am referring to. And I have not said anything about torturing or tormenting so do not put words in my mouth. I have also consistently said that Israel lacks a negotiating partner that speaks for all Palestinians so would you stop putting words in my mouth?

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.

The strategy is to pull Arab states into the picture for a regional agreement.
For that each player has to be given proportionate position, according to their real weight and potential for normalization, making the Palis last on the list for having nothing to offer, but patent disruption of any notion to normalization.

Or did You think it was all done without cooperation?

What is the Trump Administration doing towards that strategy and where is it articulated?

Trump has insulted and distanced from many key allies in his America First ideology - he thinks America can do it better alone. Why would you expect THIS endeavor to be any different? China is increasing it's global powerhouse, NK is laughing at us as Trump proclaims they are no longer a nuclear menace, and Russia? Is being Russia. Another unfettered wannabe power broker. Why do you expect a different plan here?

P.S. I don't disagree with the strategy for pulling Arab states and Israel in a regional agreement - there is no other effective long turm solution. But I'm not seeing that.

The Trump counseling session is down the hall to the FAR left. You HAVE to distance yourself from some abusive people to form more productive relationships and deals.

There was a LOT of dysfunctional foreign policy out there that was "kicking the can down the road" stuff that did HARM the US and some of it's allies.

Unfortunately, any unique REAL solutions to ending THIS stand-off from the from the US under Trump are not happening. But -- he's encouraging the new acceptance of Israel in the Mid-East as a ally to many Arab Sunni states. And THAT will lead somewhere useful... Mutual aid and security in that region now CONSIDERS Israel to be a part of the plan..