Research: The costs of renewables underestimated!

[Old Rocks]

In 2012, there were about 4 gw of utility scale solar pv in the us, by 2015, there was over 14 gw of utility scale pv.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/67142.pdf

Seems someone thinks that solar has a very strong future.

 

[SSDD]

Skyscrapers cover a lot of area.

Right..and there might be a few minutes a day when any ONE outside wall is directly in line with the sun, and even then, the glass walls are vertical...that means that they aren't angled to take advantage of incoming sunlight...and you are talking about sky scrapers which tend to cluster in groups which would then put the lower half of the structure in semi permanent shade.

It is clear that whoever has thought about this, hasn't put much actual thought into it....the only place where such buildings might be useful is far north where the sun is never high in the sky...that would allow the vertical angle of the glass to capture more sunlight...of course, that far north, solar becomes very inefficient.

In short..bad idea...unworkable..but I am sure than some green with more money than sense will actually build the thing and prove to the rest of the world that it doesn't work.

You only have a fallacy of false cause. It clouds your judgment.

Let me put this in your language and age ability to understand... IT WON'T FUCKING WORK YOU MORON!!

Angle of incidence is greater than 15 deg, all of the time, which means your photo cell will only receive about 1/100 of its 90 deg optimal operating requirement. its output would them be just .35 amps @ 12 volts (4.2 watts) for a panel rated at 350 watts @ 12 volts...

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

Guess he thinks that if they are outside and the sun is shining they are producing more than a trickle

 

[danielpalos]

Skyscrapers cover a lot of area.

Right..and there might be a few minutes a day when any ONE outside wall is directly in line with the sun, and even then, the glass walls are vertical...that means that they aren't angled to take advantage of incoming sunlight...and you are talking about sky scrapers which tend to cluster in groups which would then put the lower half of the structure in semi permanent shade.

It is clear that whoever has thought about this, hasn't put much actual thought into it....the only place where such buildings might be useful is far north where the sun is never high in the sky...that would allow the vertical angle of the glass to capture more sunlight...of course, that far north, solar becomes very inefficient.

In short..bad idea...unworkable..but I am sure than some green with more money than sense will actually build the thing and prove to the rest of the world that it doesn't work.

You only have a fallacy of false cause. It clouds your judgment.

Let me put this in your language and age ability to understand... IT WON'T FUCKING WORK YOU MORON!!

Angle of incidence is greater than 15 deg, all of the time, which means your photo cell will only receive about 1/100 of its 90 deg optimal operating requirement. its output would them be just .35 amps @ 12 volts (4.2 watts) for a panel rated at 350 watts @ 12 volts...

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

 

[danielpalos]

The field of astronomy has experienced, "exponential gains from efficiencies", from new technologies. So will the solar energy sector.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Right..and there might be a few minutes a day when any ONE outside wall is directly in line with the sun, and even then, the glass walls are vertical...that means that they aren't angled to take advantage of incoming sunlight...and you are talking about sky scrapers which tend to cluster in groups which would then put the lower half of the structure in semi permanent shade.

It is clear that whoever has thought about this, hasn't put much actual thought into it....the only place where such buildings might be useful is far north where the sun is never high in the sky...that would allow the vertical angle of the glass to capture more sunlight...of course, that far north, solar becomes very inefficient.

In short..bad idea...unworkable..but I am sure than some green with more money than sense will actually build the thing and prove to the rest of the world that it doesn't work.

You only have a fallacy of false cause. It clouds your judgment.

Let me put this in your language and age ability to understand... IT WON'T FUCKING WORK YOU MORON!!

Angle of incidence is greater than 15 deg, all of the time, which means your photo cell will only receive about 1/100 of its 90 deg optimal operating requirement. its output would them be just .35 amps @ 12 volts (4.2 watts) for a panel rated at 350 watts @ 12 volts...

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant... Just like Old Crock..

 

[danielpalos]

You only have a fallacy of false cause. It clouds your judgment.

Let me put this in your language and age ability to understand... IT WON'T FUCKING WORK YOU MORON!!

Angle of incidence is greater than 15 deg, all of the time, which means your photo cell will only receive about 1/100 of its 90 deg optimal operating requirement. its output would them be just .35 amps @ 12 volts (4.2 watts) for a panel rated at 350 watts @ 12 volts...

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

 

[Billy_Bob]

Let me put this in your language and age ability to understand... IT WON'T FUCKING WORK YOU MORON!!

Angle of incidence is greater than 15 deg, all of the time, which means your photo cell will only receive about 1/100 of its 90 deg optimal operating requirement. its output would them be just .35 amps @ 12 volts (4.2 watts) for a panel rated at 350 watts @ 12 volts...

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

Here is the important part you failed to see because you have no clue about how or why they work..From your own links..

"The prototype TLSC currently has an efficiency of around 1%."

What is 1% of 0.15? PV Cells at 45-90 deg to downwelling radiation have about 15% efficiency. Your such an idiot...

 

[80zephyr]

I graduated college with a degree in architectural design in 1976. At that time solar energy was the next "big thing". Easy peasy.

That was 41 years ago.

Mark

That was then, This is now:

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

I'll wait until we have real proof. I don't know your age, but I have heard this "now" stuff for 40 years.

Almost every year, I have heard that they have a cure for diabetes, and its still not here.

Until it happens, I will remain unconvinced.

Mark

Same here; links, or it didn't happen:
Emerging Technologies in Solar Power Market Report 2017-2027

Forecasts are not what happened. Its projection. Hell, in the 1980's Photovoltaic shingles were the next new thing, and your link shows that Photovoltaic is STILL being forecast.

Mark

The field of astronomy has experienced, "exponential gains from efficiencies", from new technologies. So will the solar energy sector.

Maybe. But there are limits to technology. Trying to squeeze more energy out of something might not work. If it did, cars would be getting 500 mpg today.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

An exceedingly long read here but absolutely fatal to advocates of wind and solar. This shit is even far more expensive than I thought!!! Has a future but will remain a fringe energy source like Ive been saying for 20 years.

Article goes deeply into the mega-costs of "intermittent" renewables........something I knew little about before reading this article. Didn't know almost all renewable energy is intermittent. Also.....everything you see in here from the climate crusaders on pricing does not include any mention of projections on future increase in subsidies as the pricing increases ( due to staggering costs of building transmission lines for example )

Renewable energy is a scam and always has been as scam...........and most interesting is from this article, the reduction of CO2 has been vastly overstated by advocates of renewables!!


There may be some cases where intermittent renewables are helpful additions without buffering (especially when the current fuel is oil, and wind or solar can help reduce fuel usage), but there are likely to be many other instances where the costs involved greatly exceed the benefits gained.

If we look at recently published information about how much intermittent electricity is being added to the electric grid, the amounts are surprisingly small. Overall, worldwide, the amount of electricity generated by a combination of wind and solar (nearly all of it intermittent) was 5.2% in 2016. On an area by area basis, the percentages of wind and solar are as shown in Figure 1.




















http://www.theenergycollective.com/gail-tverberg/2409208/researchers-underestimating-cost-wind-solar

Advances in technologies will make this a moot point. There is already, solar windows technologies that can upgrade current windows on any building or skyscraper.

I graduated college with a degree in architectural design in 1976. At that time solar energy was the next "big thing". Easy peasy.

That was 41 years ago.

Mark

That was then, This is now:

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

I'll wait until we have real proof. I don't know your age, but I have heard this "now" stuff for 40 years.

Almost every year, I have heard that they have a cure for diabetes, and its still not here.

Until it happens, I will remain unconvinced.

Mark

There is a cure for Type 2 diabetes, but then it requires the person with it, to stop eating like a pig. But then that is called FAT SHAMING, and the political correct crowd, mostly candidate of the type 2, don't want to have to stop being gluttonous, because then the EBT cards that the liberals are willing to give will come to an end.

I'm talking about juvenile diabetes. My sister contracted it at 13, and she was not fat.

I have know very many skinny diabetics.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Let me put this in your language and age ability to understand... IT WON'T FUCKING WORK YOU MORON!!

Angle of incidence is greater than 15 deg, all of the time, which means your photo cell will only receive about 1/100 of its 90 deg optimal operating requirement. its output would them be just .35 amps @ 12 volts (4.2 watts) for a panel rated at 350 watts @ 12 volts...

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

They were saying the same things in 1980. And 1990. And 2000. The telling word in your links is "could".

Mark

 

[danielpalos]

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

Here is the important part you failed to see because you have no clue about how or why they work..From your own links..

"The prototype TLSC currently has an efficiency of around 1%."

What is 1% of 0.15? PV Cells at 45-90 deg to downwelling radiation have about 15% efficiency. Your such an idiot...

Irrelevant since technology is improving all the time. What was the efficiency, just a few years ago.

Back in August 2014, researchers at Michigan State University created a fully transparent solar concentrator, which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell. Unlike other “transparent” solar cells that we’ve reported on in the past, this one really is transparent, as you can see in the photos throughout this story. According to Richard Lunt, who led the research at the time, the team was confident the transparent solar panels can be efficiently deployed in a wide range of settings, from “tall buildings with lots of windows or any kind of mobile device that demands high aesthetic quality like a phone or e-reader.”

 

[danielpalos]

That was then, This is now:

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

I'll wait until we have real proof. I don't know your age, but I have heard this "now" stuff for 40 years.

Almost every year, I have heard that they have a cure for diabetes, and its still not here.

Until it happens, I will remain unconvinced.

Mark

Same here; links, or it didn't happen:
Emerging Technologies in Solar Power Market Report 2017-2027

Forecasts are not what happened. Its projection. Hell, in the 1980's Photovoltaic shingles were the next new thing, and your link shows that Photovoltaic is STILL being forecast.

Mark

The field of astronomy has experienced, "exponential gains from efficiencies", from new technologies. So will the solar energy sector.

Maybe. But there are limits to technology. Trying to squeeze more energy out of something might not work. If it did, cars would be getting 500 mpg today.

Mark

Dear Mark,

We are discussing market based realities, not right wing fantasy.

There is no limit to high a (stock) market can go.

 

[danielpalos]

You simply don't understand economies of scale. That is just one building.

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

They were saying the same things in 1980. And 1990. And 2000. The telling word in your links is "could".

Mark

Back in August 2014, researchers at Michigan State University created a fully transparent solar concentrator, which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell. Unlike other “transparent” solar cells that we’ve reported on in the past, this one really is transparent, as you can see in the photos throughout this story. According to Richard Lunt, who led the research at the time, the team was confident the transparent solar panels can be efficiently deployed in a wide range of settings, from “tall buildings with lots of windows or any kind of mobile device that demands high aesthetic quality like a phone or e-reader.”

 

[Billy_Bob]

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

Here is the important part you failed to see because you have no clue about how or why they work..From your own links..

"The prototype TLSC currently has an efficiency of around 1%."

What is 1% of 0.15? PV Cells at 45-90 deg to downwelling radiation have about 15% efficiency. Your such an idiot...

Irrelevant since technology is improving all the time. What was the efficiency, just a few years ago.

Back in August 2014, researchers at Michigan State University created a fully transparent solar concentrator, which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell. Unlike other “transparent” solar cells that we’ve reported on in the past, this one really is transparent, as you can see in the photos throughout this story. According to Richard Lunt, who led the research at the time, the team was confident the transparent solar panels can be efficiently deployed in a wide range of settings, from “tall buildings with lots of windows or any kind of mobile device that demands high aesthetic quality like a phone or e-reader.”

You really are an ignorant dupe...

Current PV panels average 65-80% of rated capacity for just 4 hours a day and 0-30% the rest of the time.

Solar ABCs:Angle of Incidence Effect on Photovoltaic Modules

 

[Billy_Bob]

You don't know how a photovoltaic cell works and why it would take billions of windows to get what a properly placed PV array would... You do not understand Ohms law or power distribution issues..

My original statement stands.. Your a fucking moron..

How do Photovoltaics Work? | Science Mission Directorate

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

They were saying the same things in 1980. And 1990. And 2000. The telling word in your links is "could".

Mark

Back in August 2014, researchers at Michigan State University created a fully transparent solar concentrator, which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell. Unlike other “transparent” solar cells that we’ve reported on in the past, this one really is transparent, as you can see in the photos throughout this story. According to Richard Lunt, who led the research at the time, the team was confident the transparent solar panels can be efficiently deployed in a wide range of settings, from “tall buildings with lots of windows or any kind of mobile device that demands high aesthetic quality like a phone or e-reader.”

WOW

With just a 1% rated output as compared with current PV technology... And they said they COULD get as much as 10% in theory... SO this is WORSE than current tech... LOL your such an idiot..

 

[Billy_Bob]

Most buildings are in the no output region due to AOI.

Anything below about 55 deg AOI has very little output..

 

[Billy_Bob]

I'll wait until we have real proof. I don't know your age, but I have heard this "now" stuff for 40 years.

Almost every year, I have heard that they have a cure for diabetes, and its still not here.

Until it happens, I will remain unconvinced.

Mark

Same here; links, or it didn't happen:
Emerging Technologies in Solar Power Market Report 2017-2027

Forecasts are not what happened. Its projection. Hell, in the 1980's Photovoltaic shingles were the next new thing, and your link shows that Photovoltaic is STILL being forecast.

Mark

The field of astronomy has experienced, "exponential gains from efficiencies", from new technologies. So will the solar energy sector.

Maybe. But there are limits to technology. Trying to squeeze more energy out of something might not work. If it did, cars would be getting 500 mpg today.

Mark

Dear Mark,

We are discussing market based realities, not right wing fantasy.

There is no limit to high a (stock) market can go.

Tell me again, what market is selling this? this is not reality..

 

[danielpalos]

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

Here is the important part you failed to see because you have no clue about how or why they work..From your own links..

"The prototype TLSC currently has an efficiency of around 1%."

What is 1% of 0.15? PV Cells at 45-90 deg to downwelling radiation have about 15% efficiency. Your such an idiot...

Irrelevant since technology is improving all the time. What was the efficiency, just a few years ago.

Back in August 2014, researchers at Michigan State University created a fully transparent solar concentrator, which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell. Unlike other “transparent” solar cells that we’ve reported on in the past, this one really is transparent, as you can see in the photos throughout this story. According to Richard Lunt, who led the research at the time, the team was confident the transparent solar panels can be efficiently deployed in a wide range of settings, from “tall buildings with lots of windows or any kind of mobile device that demands high aesthetic quality like a phone or e-reader.”

You really are an ignorant dupe...

Current PV panels average 65-80% of rated capacity for just 4 hours a day and 0-30% the rest of the time.

Solar ABCs:Angle of Incidence Effect on Photovoltaic Modules

View attachment 141234

What part of economies of scale, do you not understand?

which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell

 

[danielpalos]

lol. You simply don't understand, economies of scale. How many individual windows on that one building?

You have no clue how or why PV cells work.. You are ignorant...

Nothing but diversion?

The technology is improving all the time.

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source - ExtremeTech

Revolutionary new solar windows could generate 50 times more power than conventional photovoltaics

They were saying the same things in 1980. And 1990. And 2000. The telling word in your links is "could".

Mark

Back in August 2014, researchers at Michigan State University created a fully transparent solar concentrator, which could turn any window or sheet of glass (like your smartphone’s screen) into a photovoltaic solar cell. Unlike other “transparent” solar cells that we’ve reported on in the past, this one really is transparent, as you can see in the photos throughout this story. According to Richard Lunt, who led the research at the time, the team was confident the transparent solar panels can be efficiently deployed in a wide range of settings, from “tall buildings with lots of windows or any kind of mobile device that demands high aesthetic quality like a phone or e-reader.”

WOW

With just a 1% rated output as compared with current PV technology... And they said they COULD get as much as 10% in theory... SO this is WORSE than current tech... LOL your such an idiot..

Economy of scale, is an economic term; no wonder the right wing, never gets it.

 

[danielpalos]

Most buildings are in the no output region due to AOI.

View attachment 141239

Anything below about 55 deg AOI has very little output..

Any given window at any given time.