Republican ? Democrat ? American ?

[Iceweasel]

If these politicians do such good work, why is their favorably rating in the singles digits?
Secondly, (I'm so sorry it went over your head), the public's overwhelming desire for an increase in the Minimum Wage was a simple example of politicians not listening to a huge majority of voters. I don't know it was so tough to understand!

It didn't go over my head, it went over yours. This is a republic. The founders set it up that way so people couldn't vote shit into law by popularity. We elect representatives and the public is mostly clueless about cause and effect. Every state and location is different, it's the height of stupidity to have a national minimum wage anyway and totally unconstitutional.

Same applies for favorable polling, it doesn't mean shit. They usually only get the bad news and I was talking about individuals. Not all politicians are the same so a poll on "congress" doesn't mean much.

But I'll reiterate that we are in the mess we are because of too many liberal politicians, their solutions don't work.

 

[regent]

Independent legislators can vote for or against a bill but I wonder what their success rate is when introducing new bills and getting them passed? And what are their chances of committee chairmanships where so many decisions are made?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Your vote is important, as well as the future of your children and grand children. How will you vote? AMERICAN?

I've voting Republican. No Democrat for major office has any where near my values. Libertarians serve only to give the opposite side the votes, a sign of mental illness.

a sign of mental illness
voting for either democrats or republicans.....yep....

LOL, throwing your vote away makes more sense to you.

i feel you are throwing your vote away.....you are voting for the same old shit from the same old parties and......you know not much is going to change,but you will do it anyway, all because you just cant vote for a non-party guy.......as long as so many people from both sides have that mindset and are afraid to cut the cord not much is going to change......at least i know im not part of that 2 party bullshit...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Republican ? Democrat ? American ?"

All of the above, one in the same.

 

[Iceweasel]

i feel you are throwing your vote away.....you are voting for the same old shit from the same old parties and......you know not much is going to change,but you will do it anyway, all because you just cant vote for a non-party guy.......as long as so many people from both sides have that mindset and are afraid to cut the cord not much is going to change......at least i know im not part of that 2 party bullshit...

I live in reality so I voted for McCain and Romney so by what stretch of the imagination was my vote thrown away? Either they or obama was going to win. You live in an alternative universe.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

I live in reality so I voted for McCain and Romney so by what stretch of the imagination was my vote thrown away? Either they or obama was going to win. You live in an alternative universe.

If we're honest with ourselves, neither Republican candidate really had a chance. Obama was selected by the small group of companies that run the US even before that selection was confirmed by his party's nomination. The electoral vote was really just an anointing of Bush's chosen and confirmed successor with the popular vote being little more than a popularity contest held in parallel with the real system for shits and giggles. It should have been obvious that Obama was going to be the next two term president from the moment he promised not to run for president as a senator immediately before starting his campaign.

 

[Iceweasel]

I live in reality so I voted for McCain and Romney so by what stretch of the imagination was my vote thrown away? Either they or obama was going to win. You live in an alternative universe.

If we're honest with ourselves, neither Republican candidate really had a chance. Obama was selected by the small group of companies that run the US even before that selection was confirmed by his party's nomination. The electoral vote was really just an anointing of Bush's chosen and confirmed successor with the popular vote being little more than a popularity contest held in parallel with the real system for shits and giggles. It should have been obvious that Obama was going to be the next two term president from the moment he promised not to run for president as a senator immediately before starting his campaign.

Companies can back a candidate but they can't fudge election results. The news media played the dominate role, if you mean that small group of companies I agree with you.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Companies can back a candidate but they can't fudge election results. The news media played the dominate role, if you mean that small group of companies I agree with you.

Of course. And when he's promoted as a celebrity messiah it's only natural that he'll be treated as and considered one - especially by the lowest information voters. I believe I previously mentioned on the board that much of my family voted for him without even knowing his name. They just knew "the black one" would give them lots more welfare and free phones. "The old guy" and "the woman" (Hillary) never had a chance.

 

[EatMorChikin]

Your vote is important, as well as the future of your children and grand children. How will you vote? AMERICAN?

I've voting Republican. No Democrat for major office has any where near my values. Libertarians serve only to give the opposite side the votes, a sign of mental illness.

So because I refuse to vote for (R) or (D) and vote my conscience instead. That makes me mentally ill? Wouldn't it be more mentally ill to vote for people you don't believe in just because they have a (R) or (D) by their name. Keep believing that the 2 major parties have your best interests in mind.

 

[Sonny Clark]

I disagree, We're in this mess because people voted for and elected professional politicians to run this once great nation. We're in this mess because voters swallowed hook, line, and sinker, every word spewed from the mouths of those hell-bent on our further socioeconomic destruction. The proof is on Main Street America, and in daily headlines.

Politicians are the ones running for office. If you aren't voting for someone that can actually win then you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

A matter of opinion. I see it the other way around. I see it as those that voter for the ones that the rich, the powerful, and the influential place on the ballots are the problem. How can I be the problem when I'm not the one aiding and abetting the crooks that make up "The Washington Brotherhood"? I haven't had a hand in encouraging "The Selling of America". How can I be blamed for the mess when I refused to take part in the game?

Not everybody shares your childish worldview of politicians.

I have never ever expected "everybody" to share my views. There are almost 7 Billion people on this Earth, and at least that many opinions and views. And, what's childish about my views? Care to explain?

 

[regent]

The "American way", or American Dream, centered around freedom. And it was mostly freedom from being influenced in ways you didn't want, by others. If you asked them to interact with you, or made a deal with them somehow, that's one thing. But you had the right to not have them in your face, or taking your stuff, if you didn't give them permission to.

For that reason, government was meant to be small, and oriented mostly around keeping other people out of your face. Both foreign people (diplomatic relations) and domestic people (police forces and courts to catch and prosecute lawbreakers, and to resolve disputes). If some other nation tried to attack you or invade, then the American government would swell to huge size as it dealt with that huge threat. And then it should shrink back down (sometimes a painful process, especially for those in government) to its former small size and stay out of your way. It also had a small role in setting various standards (weight, measures, money value etc.) so everyone could interact more easily when they wanted to.

The whole idea was that American people were responsible for their own fates. They worked and grew food, built houses, built vehicles and roads if they wanted to, and produced stuff they and other people wanted so they could consume and/or trade. And they looked out for each other, helped their neighbors or got help as needed.

And government didn't. That was the people's job, not government's.

The idea that government should take care of the people, is distinctly Un-American. And it is wrong. Because it simply doesn't work. It fails every time it's tried.

There are a growing number of people who don't see that. But their ignorance and misguided notions don't make it right. They push the notion of robbing Peter to pay Paul, by pointing out how much good it does for Paul. While glossing over the fact that it's grossly unfair to Peter, and eventually persuades Peter to stop producing or accumulating any wealth. And so the whole country slides downhill as a result.

Those people will also scream how much it would hurt Paul if the program were stopped. While still ignoring the fact that it's far more unfair to Peter to keep it going. Or they will say Peter deserved to be robbed for some reason. They are lying.

If you want to vote American, vote for government that stays small and out of people's faces. The country is the people, not the government.

And run away as fast as you can from people who say "Government is here to help you". It's not. Government is here to keep other people from hindering you. And that's the ONLY thing it's here for.

So the American people believe differently, the government is here to help ordinary citizens as it once helped the elites and rich.
State governments under the new Constitution had the responsibility for taking care of the poor and disabled, and some states in turn passed the problem onto the counties. So we had county poor houses and so forth.

 

[Skylar]

Another major cause of problems politically, on both the right and the left.......is the embracing of hysterically exagerated positions and the most wildly hysterical definitions of words possible.

On the fringe feminist left, we something as simple as saying hello deemed an 'assault'. With all men belonging to 'rape culture'.

On the fringe right, taxation is 'theft', any regulation is a 'totalitarianism' or 'fascism' or 'communism' or 'socialism'.

Where the most ridiculous, the most over the top, the most melodramatic descriptions are offered up as if they're perfectly reasonable. Its the side effect of politics as entertainment. Where pundits say outrageous shit to gain attention and boost ratings.

 

[Iceweasel]

Your vote is important, as well as the future of your children and grand children. How will you vote? AMERICAN?

I've voting Republican. No Democrat for major office has any where near my values. Libertarians serve only to give the opposite side the votes, a sign of mental illness.

So because I refuse to vote for (R) or (D) and vote my conscience instead. That makes me mentally ill? Wouldn't it be more mentally ill to vote for people you don't believe in just because they have a (R) or (D) by their name. Keep believing that the 2 major parties have your best interests in mind.

If you regularly hand elections over to the party fartherest away from your ideals then you have problems, yes. It happened here, we lost the gubernatorial election because it was close enough for the Dems to pad their count. The reason it was so close was a Libertarian that had zero possibilities of winning. If that warms your heart then you are part of the problem.

Electing representatives isn't about purity or political/spiritual devotion, it's about finding the best candidate that can win. It would be like selecting a football team based on ideological purity instead of guys that can beat the other guys.

 

[Iceweasel]

I disagree, We're in this mess because people voted for and elected professional politicians to run this once great nation. We're in this mess because voters swallowed hook, line, and sinker, every word spewed from the mouths of those hell-bent on our further socioeconomic destruction. The proof is on Main Street America, and in daily headlines.

Politicians are the ones running for office. If you aren't voting for someone that can actually win then you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

A matter of opinion. I see it the other way around. I see it as those that voter for the ones that the rich, the powerful, and the influential place on the ballots are the problem. How can I be the problem when I'm not the one aiding and abetting the crooks that make up "The Washington Brotherhood"? I haven't had a hand in encouraging "The Selling of America". How can I be blamed for the mess when I refused to take part in the game?

Not everybody shares your childish worldview of politicians.

I have never ever expected "everybody" to share my views. There are almost 7 Billion people on this Earth, and at least that many opinions and views. And, what's childish about my views? Care to explain?

I did, sorry if it could make it past your filters. And we don't elect people regardless of age or nationality world wide for offices here in the US. We elect citizens that can win an election. We pick those that most closely represents us. Consistently picking those with no chance to win because they are closer to us ideologically is participating in elections for reasons other than electing candidates. It's just political masturbation.

 

[Wyatt earp]

And government didn't. That was the people's job, not government's.

The idea that government should take care of the people, is distinctly Un-American. And it is wrong. Because it simply doesn't work. It fails every time it's tried.

Lets explore this a little. What has failed every time its tried, specifically? Something like universal healthcare has failed ever time? Social security has failed every single time? Public education has failed every single time? Anti-discrimination laws have failed every single time? State funded higher education has failed every single time? Environmental regulation has failed every single time?

Because there are nations all over the planet using those policies to varying degrees. Some far more than we are. And they're still here. Some are quite prosperous. So how do you reconcile the existence of what you insist can't exist? The success of what you insist has to fail?

There's genuine room for disagreement, on degree, on specific policy. As reality isn't a binary switch, where its either lassie faire capitalism or collapse. There's plenty of middle ground.

And that is where I think where many people have lost the ability to perceive. They get caught up in oversimplification, in bumpersticker slogans, in polarization. Where anything but what they believe must be wrong, ignorant and dangerous. And there seems to be a far higher priority placed on ideological purity over practical, pragmatic results. Which is fucking stupid in my opinion. There's plenty of room in between the polar extremes. In fact, that's where almost everyone lives.

The ideologically 'pure' are some lonely motherfuckers.

There are a growing number of people who don't see that. But their ignorance and misguided notions don't make it right. They push the notion of robbing Peter to pay Paul, by pointing out how much good it does for Paul. While glossing over the fact that it's grossly unfair to Peter, and eventually persuades Peter to stop producing or accumulating any wealth. And so the whole country slides downhill as a result.

That sounds like the last chapter of Atlas Shrugged. Where all the rich people moved to Colorado because they were taxed and regulated. But that's fantasy. We've had far higher taxes in the past than we do now and we did just fine. The idea unless we drop tax rates the wealthy and successful are just going to stop working is beyond silly. It hasn't happened. Even at a much higher tax rate, there are still enormous rewards to be had from working, inventing, building and growing. And people are going to keep doing it.

The entire premise of your argument is literally nonsense.

Those people will also scream how much it would hurt Paul if the program were stopped. While still ignoring the fact that it's far more unfair to Peter to keep it going. Or they will say Peter deserved to be robbed for some reason. They are lying.

Taxation isn't theft. We all have to pay for programs we don't like. You're outraged by say, school lunches for children? Someone else is pissed about military spending. Or highway block grants. Or subsidization of corporation farms. The idea that unless you agree with every policy, you're being 'robbed' is blithering nonsense.

The fundamental problem on both the left and right in regards to government spending is this: we want more than we're willing to pay for. And we punish politicians who either take away the services we demand, or insist on raising taxes to match their actual price tag. Leaving deficit spending the only politically viable way for them to move forward.

I am so sick and tired of the left parrot over and fucking over again "we had high taxes before and we did just fine"

Mother fucking shit, the USA , the world is not 19 godamn 50

Their was lack of regulations back then, Thousands Of loop holes, no quality control in manufacturing, Europe in ruins after world war II

No god damn competition


Do you get that?

No god damn competition

Quit trying to bring us back to 1950 because the world is not going backward fool

 

[Wyatt earp]

I disagree, We're in this mess because people voted for and elected professional politicians to run this once great nation. We're in this mess because voters swallowed hook, line, and sinker, every word spewed from the mouths of those hell-bent on our further socioeconomic destruction. The proof is on Main Street America, and in daily headlines.

Politicians are the ones running for office. If you aren't voting for someone that can actually win then you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

"you aren't voting for someone that can actually win then you are not part of the solution"
The solution is getting qualified people to run for office that have something called ethics.
All we get from the two parties are professional politicians who spend a majority of their time in office, raising campaign funds. That is the most consuming part of their job. When we talk about campaign funds, we are leaving out the largest segment of the American public out because that's the group who don't have expendable income to throw at politicians.
So because they don't throw money at the professional politicians their voices aren't heard and or listened to. The politicians use polls to guide them through the re-election process so they can act like they are in touch.
The working American public has lost it's voice because no one is listening. A good example is raising the minimum wage. Well over 70% of the people in every single poll support it, but the politicians biggest financial backers are against it. We all know the result of that set up. Money shouts down voices.
Why in the hell is the voter at fault? It's the fucking system set up by the sleazeball politicians in the first place.
Get Big Money out of politics and we will get a much more representative government as intended by our Founding Fathers.

What's the point of raising minimum wage? How does that help anyone in our Capitalist system

Just curious who it helps? The government in higher revenue in taxes?

Most Union workers since their contract is tied to the Minimum wage?

Who does it help?

 

[Sonny Clark]

I disagree, We're in this mess because people voted for and elected professional politicians to run this once great nation. We're in this mess because voters swallowed hook, line, and sinker, every word spewed from the mouths of those hell-bent on our further socioeconomic destruction. The proof is on Main Street America, and in daily headlines.

Politicians are the ones running for office. If you aren't voting for someone that can actually win then you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

A matter of opinion. I see it the other way around. I see it as those that voter for the ones that the rich, the powerful, and the influential place on the ballots are the problem. How can I be the problem when I'm not the one aiding and abetting the crooks that make up "The Washington Brotherhood"? I haven't had a hand in encouraging "The Selling of America". How can I be blamed for the mess when I refused to take part in the game?

Not everybody shares your childish worldview of politicians.

I have never ever expected "everybody" to share my views. There are almost 7 Billion people on this Earth, and at least that many opinions and views. And, what's childish about my views? Care to explain?

I did, sorry if it could make it past your filters. And we don't elect people regardless of age or nationality world wide for offices here in the US. We elect citizens that can win an election. We pick those that most closely represents us. Consistently picking those with no chance to win because they are closer to us ideologically is participating in elections for reasons other than electing candidates. It's just political masturbation.

I don't have any filters. Obviously, we disagree, which is fine. You have the right to express your views and opinions, and I respect that right. Again, what was "childish" about my comments? Care to explain? Or, was it just an empty personal attack?

 

[Iceweasel]

I don't have any filters. Obviously, we disagree, which is fine. You have the right to express your views and opinions, and I respect that right. Again, what was "childish" about my comments? Care to explain? Or, was it just an empty personal attack?

It would help a lot if you could read the words that are there instead of seeing what you think is there. I didn't say your comments were childish, I said your worldview is childish and I went to some lengths to explain why. I can't understand it for you.

 

[Sonny Clark]

I don't have any filters. Obviously, we disagree, which is fine. You have the right to express your views and opinions, and I respect that right. Again, what was "childish" about my comments? Care to explain? Or, was it just an empty personal attack?

It would help a lot if you could read the words that are there instead of seeing what you think is there. I didn't say your comments were childish, I said your worldview is childish and I went to some lengths to explain why. I can't understand it for you.

I didn't see where you explained why my comments were childish. But, as I stated earlier, you're entitled to your opinion. And, I respect your right to express it. I did see where you disagreed, which is fine with me.

 

[Skylar]

And government didn't. That was the people's job, not government's.

The idea that government should take care of the people, is distinctly Un-American. And it is wrong. Because it simply doesn't work. It fails every time it's tried.

Lets explore this a little. What has failed every time its tried, specifically? Something like universal healthcare has failed ever time? Social security has failed every single time? Public education has failed every single time? Anti-discrimination laws have failed every single time? State funded higher education has failed every single time? Environmental regulation has failed every single time?

Because there are nations all over the planet using those policies to varying degrees. Some far more than we are. And they're still here. Some are quite prosperous. So how do you reconcile the existence of what you insist can't exist? The success of what you insist has to fail?

There's genuine room for disagreement, on degree, on specific policy. As reality isn't a binary switch, where its either lassie faire capitalism or collapse. There's plenty of middle ground.

And that is where I think where many people have lost the ability to perceive. They get caught up in oversimplification, in bumpersticker slogans, in polarization. Where anything but what they believe must be wrong, ignorant and dangerous. And there seems to be a far higher priority placed on ideological purity over practical, pragmatic results. Which is fucking stupid in my opinion. There's plenty of room in between the polar extremes. In fact, that's where almost everyone lives.

The ideologically 'pure' are some lonely motherfuckers.

There are a growing number of people who don't see that. But their ignorance and misguided notions don't make it right. They push the notion of robbing Peter to pay Paul, by pointing out how much good it does for Paul. While glossing over the fact that it's grossly unfair to Peter, and eventually persuades Peter to stop producing or accumulating any wealth. And so the whole country slides downhill as a result.

That sounds like the last chapter of Atlas Shrugged. Where all the rich people moved to Colorado because they were taxed and regulated. But that's fantasy. We've had far higher taxes in the past than we do now and we did just fine. The idea unless we drop tax rates the wealthy and successful are just going to stop working is beyond silly. It hasn't happened. Even at a much higher tax rate, there are still enormous rewards to be had from working, inventing, building and growing. And people are going to keep doing it.

The entire premise of your argument is literally nonsense.

Those people will also scream how much it would hurt Paul if the program were stopped. While still ignoring the fact that it's far more unfair to Peter to keep it going. Or they will say Peter deserved to be robbed for some reason. They are lying.

Taxation isn't theft. We all have to pay for programs we don't like. You're outraged by say, school lunches for children? Someone else is pissed about military spending. Or highway block grants. Or subsidization of corporation farms. The idea that unless you agree with every policy, you're being 'robbed' is blithering nonsense.

The fundamental problem on both the left and right in regards to government spending is this: we want more than we're willing to pay for. And we punish politicians who either take away the services we demand, or insist on raising taxes to match their actual price tag. Leaving deficit spending the only politically viable way for them to move forward.

I am so sick and tired of the left parrot over and fucking over again "we had high taxes before and we did just fine"

Mother fucking shit, the USA , the world is not 19 godamn 50

If higher taxes were going to make people 'stop working'.....why didn't they? You have a direct historical test of the theory and it didn't pan out. Worse, we have country after country with varying degrees of social safetynets....that exist. Despite the claim that they all fail.

What you seem to be 'sick of' is historic examples that contradict the last chapter of Atlas Shrugged.