Removing algebra as a requirement for non-STEM college majors.

[RodISHI]

Algebra teaches logical thinking ... we start with very simple facts, combine them in logical ways and derive higher facts ... math is strictly dependent on this manner of thought pattern ... not that we should always be logical, but it's a tool in the toolbox as it were, logic solves enough of our day-to-day problems that some course work in high school is needed ... and algebra fits the need perfectly ... and can be easily taught to 14-year-old children ... what good is a college degree if you're not smarter than a 14-year-old? ...

I struggle with written English, as I'm sure all of you have noticed ... I certainly don't deserve a college degree ... even in mathematics ... an English major who can't balance their checkbook doesn't deserve a degree either ...

Can algebra be presented to the non-STEM student better? ... probably so ... but starting high school is a bad time for the student to make that forever decision ... we do teach algebra for the STEM students and in a very specific way ... these students must go on a take college math classes ... and the student needs to understand algebra in the way we are teaching it now ... sometimes compared to learning a foreign language, the symbols and techniques we learn in algebra extend well into higher math ...

I was quite surprised when my first upper division math class, LinAlgebra, started with material I learned in 2nd grade ... like the communicative property of addition, a+b=b+a ... simply shocking to me how critically important that law is to all of advanced mathematics, just shocking ...

Bottom line ... if algebra isn't easy for you ... you don't belong in college ...

An 11th grade friend taught me as she went through her studies. She had such an easy way to explain it to me it made it easy. Sometimes its the teacher and the manner in how they are teaching any subject as to whether the student grasps it or not.

note: not that I recall any of it 50 years later.

 

[Dick Foster]

No, I disagree with this. We actually do use Algebra in our everyday lives more than we realize.

Absolutely. Moreover, it helps to teach basic principles of logic that, quite clearly, much of adult america is utterly lacking.

I believe that many introductory STEM courses would make very good general education electives for training in logical reasoning ability and judgement. I often chuckle at the idea that STEM doesn't teach critical thinking skills.

As an engineer I was constantly solving problems and utilizing logic to do so. You won't get very far on SWAG alone. Same thing with the business end.

 

[james bond]

This isn't STEM, but a requirement for community college students to get into a 4-yr college. This is probably the best chance for these students from poor backgrounds to break the cycle of poverty. Otherwise, they'll be forced to join the military to go fight the Mooslims and Red Chinese, get low paying jobs as adults and end up on welfare, or worse. 48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%.

Heh. I was right. They did drop the requirement. I would be a STEM candidate if I was going to HS today, and can figure these things out while the OP beotches and post articles from years ago.

Cal State drops intermediate algebra as requirement to take some college-level math courses

"48% rate isn't that great. Instead, these students will take statistics or math classes more relevant to their major. That seems like a fair trade off if the CC admins can show an improvement to around 60%."

Why would the pass rate go up from 48% to 60% if the other math classes are as rigorous?

From the article you linked to:

“The test of being successful in first-year law school has to do with logic, with being analytical. It doesn’t have to do at all with quantitative skills,” he said in an interview."

First, Mathematics is about as logical and analytic as you can get. I would also question how many successful lawyers lacked the aptitude to pass Algebra. Perhaps offering a pre-Algebra course students can opt to take instead, leaving them with the option of taking Algebra later might be a better option.

You need to admit that you did not comprehend the old 2017 article correctly. OTOH, I figured out what my state was going to do and it was done in a matter of months.

Now, I was interested in the results and am disappointed in 2019. It was only an increase of 3% for those transferring to UC or state college systems, and less that 1% increase in 2-yr CC degree graduates. This puts the chancellor and the CC educators and admin on the hot seat.

What math classes are you talking about that college algebra was replaced with? Are students still able to choose college algebra? How are other students doing aside from those from poorer neighborhoods? I assume you are referring only to state of California.

They do have a larger target and have set 2022 as their target. I'm not in education, so have no idea how they can meet their target. Do you know?

 

[Yarddog]

No, I disagree with this. We actually do use Algebra in our everyday lives more than we realize. I've found myself using it here and there for home remodeling, personal finances, etc. I do agree that we should drop Algebra II, especially for high school students, unless they intend on going into the sciences, and replace it with more practical courses like economics, personal finance, etc.

Examples please.

electricians can use algebra for different wiring applications. I know thats true for electrical motors. There are specific algebraic formulas.

And you can use it in simple building like framing a house. determining things like load strength if you substitute different variables.

Just knowing some simple formulas can make life much much easier and save a lot of time. Just like simply knowing some right angle Trig can help as well in building and machining

 

[Yarddog]

Algebra teaches logical thinking ... we start with very simple facts, combine them in logical ways and derive higher facts ... math is strictly dependent on this manner of thought pattern ... not that we should always be logical, but it's a tool in the toolbox as it were, logic solves enough of our day-to-day problems that some course work in high school is needed ... and algebra fits the need perfectly ... and can be easily taught to 14-year-old children ... what good is a college degree if you're not smarter than a 14-year-old? ...

I struggle with written English, as I'm sure all of you have noticed ... I certainly don't deserve a college degree ... even in mathematics ... an English major who can't balance their checkbook doesn't deserve a degree either ...

Can algebra be presented to the non-STEM student better? ... probably so ... but starting high school is a bad time for the student to make that forever decision ... we do teach algebra for the STEM students and in a very specific way ... these students must go on a take college math classes ... and the student needs to understand algebra in the way we are teaching it now ... sometimes compared to learning a foreign language, the symbols and techniques we learn in algebra extend well into higher math ...

I was quite surprised when my first upper division math class, LinAlgebra, started with material I learned in 2nd grade ... like the communicative property of addition, a+b=b+a ... simply shocking to me how critically important that law is to all of advanced mathematics, just shocking ...

Bottom line ... if algebra isn't easy for you ... you don't belong in college ...

An 11th grade friend taught me as she went through her studies. She had such an easy way to explain it to me it made it easy. Sometimes its the teacher and the manner in how they are teaching any subject as to whether the student grasps it or not.

note: not that I recall any of it 50 years later.

I could not get algebra at all in HS. though my home life was a real mess and i didnt do so well in school, I attribute it to my Algebra teacher who was British, and boring as hell, was terrible at explaining things. years later at age 40 i taught myself algebra straight out of a book up to algebra 2.... it was a college book that had the answers in the back , so i was able to figure it out. I felt quite amazed by how easy it seemed the second time around, and after learning it, i believe its a great mental exercise. It would be wrong to take this away from students when the U.S. is already falling behind all the other countries in the world in math

 

[ReinyDays]

You need to admit that you did not comprehend the old 2017 article correctly. OTOH, I figured out what my state was going to do and it was done in a matter of months.

Now, I was interested in the results and am disappointed in 2019. It was only an increase of 3% for those transferring to UC or state college systems, and less that 1% increase in 2-yr CC degree graduates. This puts the chancellor and the CC educators and admin on the hot seat.

What math classes are you talking about that college algebra was replaced with? Are students still able to choose college algebra? How are other students doing aside from those from poorer neighborhoods? I assume you are referring only to state of California.

They do have a larger target and have set 2022 as their target. I'm not in education, so have no idea how they can meet their target. Do you know?

What is this "college algebra" you speak of ... algebra is a high school class ... I understand colleges will teach algebra, but it's not a college class per se ... entry level college math is calculus ... two years of it for hard core STEM fields ... and the student absolutely has to be competent in all four years of high school math to start calculus ...

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I often chuckle at the idea that STEM doesn't teach critical thinking skills.

Who says it doesn't?

 

[Yarddog]

For a 2400 sq/ft single story you need five pallets.

So, how many for 2 such houses? That's algebra.

As long as Nancy is teaching Algebra,

I'm still all in...

 

[OldLady]

Drop algebra requirement for non-STEM majors, California community colleges chief says

There are a growing number of educational psychologists who are advocating that non-STEM students not be forced to take Algebra to get a college degree.

“College-level algebra is probably the greatest barrier for students — particularly first-generation students, students of color — obtaining a credential,” he said. “If we know we’re disadvantaging large swaths of students who we need in the workforce, we have to question why. And is algebra really the only means we have to determine whether a student is going to be successful in their life?

“I think there’s a growing body of evidence and advocates that say ‘no’ — that there are more relevant, just as rigorous, math pathways that we feel students should have the ability to take,” he said."

One question I have is this. If the alternate pathway is "just as rigorous", won't it be "just as" great of a barrier? I believe a better solution is to do a better job preparing students for Algebra before they take it.

I couldn't understand Algebra to save my soul when I was a teenager. I finally got a 65 on my final--on my second year of taking it, so I could get my diploma--I'm pretty sure the teacher gave me extra points for spelling my name right.
I made it 50 years without it, raised a kid, managed a household, graduated college, have been a professional for 20+ years. All without a clue how to do algebra.
So why do we have to have it again?

Surviving life and getting ahead in life are entirely different things. I'm guessing you've only managed to survive thus far.
What have you managed to contribute if anything?
I hated math in school mainly because of how the teachers managed to bungle their jobs, but later on in life as an engineer and even a geodetic surveyor for awhile, I sure got a big snoot full of of it.

I'm not disappointed in how big my house is or how new my car is. I've got a great son and granddaughter and teaching people to read and write and helping them pass their GED maybe helped them get ahead. When I did Child Protective, I got a few kids out of bad/dangerous situations, and maybe that helped in the long run.
So I feel like I've contributed. I don't know why being an engineer or surveyor is superior to the fields I have been in.

 

[candycorn]

Drop algebra requirement for non-STEM majors, California community colleges chief says

There are a growing number of educational psychologists who are advocating that non-STEM students not be forced to take Algebra to get a college degree.

“College-level algebra is probably the greatest barrier for students — particularly first-generation students, students of color — obtaining a credential,” he said. “If we know we’re disadvantaging large swaths of students who we need in the workforce, we have to question why. And is algebra really the only means we have to determine whether a student is going to be successful in their life?

“I think there’s a growing body of evidence and advocates that say ‘no’ — that there are more relevant, just as rigorous, math pathways that we feel students should have the ability to take,” he said."

One question I have is this. If the alternate pathway is "just as rigorous", won't it be "just as" great of a barrier? I believe a better solution is to do a better job preparing students for Algebra before they take it.

dumb idea

 

[OldLady]

Drop algebra requirement for non-STEM majors, California community colleges chief says

There are a growing number of educational psychologists who are advocating that non-STEM students not be forced to take Algebra to get a college degree.

“College-level algebra is probably the greatest barrier for students — particularly first-generation students, students of color — obtaining a credential,” he said. “If we know we’re disadvantaging large swaths of students who we need in the workforce, we have to question why. And is algebra really the only means we have to determine whether a student is going to be successful in their life?

“I think there’s a growing body of evidence and advocates that say ‘no’ — that there are more relevant, just as rigorous, math pathways that we feel students should have the ability to take,” he said."

One question I have is this. If the alternate pathway is "just as rigorous", won't it be "just as" great of a barrier? I believe a better solution is to do a better job preparing students for Algebra before they take it.

Even pipefitters use Algebra and simple Algebra isn't all to hard to learn if taught correctly.

Isn't it more experience and building codes that determine the size, length, and slope of pipe?

Pipefitters do all that fancy piping you see in anything from factories to nuclear plants. Plumbers do pipes in residential and commercial settings. Both require pretty good math skills and the ability to read specs and blue prints if one is good at their trade. If they don't have the math skills they are very likely to read blue prints off or backwards. We had a three million dollar facility where the prime did the backwards grades. Talk about a mess everything ran into the vents instead of the floor drains. Also if a contractor has the skills they be more likely to see mistakes that are made in the blue prints.

Even good carpenters use Algebra. Mechanics even can apply Algebra in their trade. I can't think of too many trades where a good qualified person doesn't need to have fairly decent math skills which include at least the basics of Algebra.

Give an example of how carpenters and mechanics use algebra.

There are about 2.54 cm in an inch. You have a half inch bolt. Which metric wrench should you try first? That's algebra.

You are framing a house. You need to by boards for the studs for a wall. The wall is 16 feet long, and the studs are at every 16inches. How many boards do you need? That's algebra.

No, that's simple division. I can do it, so it's not algebra.

 

[candycorn]

No, I disagree with this. We actually do use Algebra in our everyday lives more than we realize. I've found myself using it here and there for home remodeling, personal finances, etc. I do agree that we should drop Algebra II, especially for high school students, unless they intend on going into the sciences, and replace it with more practical courses like economics, personal finance, etc.

Examples please.

Buying paint to paint your wall.

Figuring out compound interest.

 

[OldLady]

For a 2400 sq/ft single story you need five pallets.

So, how many for 2 such houses? That's algebra.

No, it's multiplication.

 

[james bond]

What is this "college algebra" you speak of ... algebra is a high school class ... I understand colleges will teach algebra, but it's not a college class per se ... entry level college math is calculus ... two years of it for hard core STEM fields ... and the student absolutely has to be competent in all four years of high school math to start calculus ...

It's more than HS algebra even though STEM kids probably could take it in HS. See my post #10 and go through some of the areas. The other advanced class they can probably can take in HS is analytic geometry.

I'm still disappointed with the results by the CC since they showed little improvement when they went to statistics and other math electives. So much so that I ask, "Where's the evolution?" .

Now, they're promising it in 2022 . There are no magic bullets if there is little improvement of kids graduating from 2-yr programs. I think it means the military for some of these kids and/or learning a trade. Maybe silicon valley will have to continue giving foreign kids the jobs if 4-yr college kids are required.

 

[OldLady]

Algebra teaches logical thinking ... we start with very simple facts, combine them in logical ways and derive higher facts ... math is strictly dependent on this manner of thought pattern ... not that we should always be logical, but it's a tool in the toolbox as it were, logic solves enough of our day-to-day problems that some course work in high school is needed ... and algebra fits the need perfectly ... and can be easily taught to 14-year-old children ... what good is a college degree if you're not smarter than a 14-year-old? ...

I struggle with written English, as I'm sure all of you have noticed ... I certainly don't deserve a college degree ... even in mathematics ... an English major who can't balance their checkbook doesn't deserve a degree either ...

Can algebra be presented to the non-STEM student better? ... probably so ... but starting high school is a bad time for the student to make that forever decision ... we do teach algebra for the STEM students and in a very specific way ... these students must go on a take college math classes ... and the student needs to understand algebra in the way we are teaching it now ... sometimes compared to learning a foreign language, the symbols and techniques we learn in algebra extend well into higher math ...

I was quite surprised when my first upper division math class, LinAlgebra, started with material I learned in 2nd grade ... like the communicative property of addition, a+b=b+a ... simply shocking to me how critically important that law is to all of advanced mathematics, just shocking ...

Bottom line ... if algebra isn't easy for you ... you don't belong in college ...

Most humans grasp either language or math readily, but the other takes longer for them to "get." Sadly, schools don't have "slow" and "fast" math groups the way they used to do with teaching reading. I am facile with words. I don't remember not being able to read. They didn't have a "high" enough reading group for kids like me in elementary school. The teachers wouldn't call on me to answer questions because like Hermione, I always knew the answer. But give me three four digit numbers to add in 4th grade and I was likely to get it wrong. Numbers floated in my head, as did sums; I just couldn't remember them. It took me an incredibly long time to get it right. I wouldn't even buy a hand calculator for years because it took me so goddamned long to learn how to do that stuff, I was insistent on USING it. I had no problem with Geometry; I even liked it. So maybe I learned some logic there; I don't know.

It's not true that a person should find BOTH language arts and math easy before they are considered college material. Einstein couldn't spell; his teachers thought he was retarded. He couldn't fill out his tax forms. We all have things that come easily and things that don't. Where would we be if we hadn't allowed Einstein to continue his education?

 

[Paulie]

No, I disagree with this. We actually do use Algebra in our everyday lives more than we realize. I've found myself using it here and there for home remodeling, personal finances, etc. I do agree that we should drop Algebra II, especially for high school students, unless they intend on going into the sciences, and replace it with more practical courses like economics, personal finance, etc.

I have a home remodeling business and have renovated countless homes. Never once in my life have I used algebra. Arithmetic and geometry yes, but no algebra. Whatever home remodeling you’re doing, you’re clearly overcomplicating it.

 

[RandomPoster]

I often chuckle at the idea that STEM doesn't teach critical thinking skills.

Who says it doesn't?

It is constantly brought up that the Liberal Arts are needed because they alone teach students to think critically. Supposedly, STEM students don't learn to look for logical flaws in their reasoning or to identify errors.

 

[RandomPoster]

Drop algebra requirement for non-STEM majors, California community colleges chief says

There are a growing number of educational psychologists who are advocating that non-STEM students not be forced to take Algebra to get a college degree.

“College-level algebra is probably the greatest barrier for students — particularly first-generation students, students of color — obtaining a credential,” he said. “If we know we’re disadvantaging large swaths of students who we need in the workforce, we have to question why. And is algebra really the only means we have to determine whether a student is going to be successful in their life?

“I think there’s a growing body of evidence and advocates that say ‘no’ — that there are more relevant, just as rigorous, math pathways that we feel students should have the ability to take,” he said."

One question I have is this. If the alternate pathway is "just as rigorous", won't it be "just as" great of a barrier? I believe a better solution is to do a better job preparing students for Algebra before they take it.

dumb idea

It's a dumb idea to do a better job of preparing students for Algebra before they take it?

 

[whitehall]

They probably will get around to removing the "reading comprehension" requirement from history majors sooner or later.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

algebra?

This is a good question. It's college level algebra which many students do not need unless they are STEM or going into sciences. I agree there.



Virtual Math Lab - College Algebra

That is a high school Algebra I level problem.